Filling in the gaps on Defense
by super7 on Mar 3, 2011 5:18 PM MST
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Ok - so I put pen to paper today. Okay, I opened Excel and put together a mock up of our defense in the two most common alignments: Base & Nickel.
I have 2 problems and that's why I'm posting this. I'll get to those in a moment.
For the purposes of my post, I am drafting Fairley, and if he's not available, I'm taking Dareus. That's just me. If you want to tell me why Denver's taking Pat Peterson, start another post. I'm not interested in that discussion. Although worthwhile, it's not the discussion this post intends to have.
Ok, so for my mock up, I have Hill & Dawk returning at safety. I want to replace Dawk worse than anyone, but I don't know if Denver will be able to find one. If they do, I'm thinkning FA will be the avenue that Denver finds a safety.
Anyway, I also have Goodman back in action, because I think Goodman is damn good (albeit when healthy).
I also have DJ at weakside. I even have Woodyard at Mike. But problem #1 is Strongside OLB. In base, I love the idea of Ayers lining up within a yard or three of Dumervil, who'd be flanked my my new DT (Fairley or Dareus) who would be playing next to Big Vick or Marcus Thomas and an unknown DE. But in reality, I think Denver is more inclined to leave Ayers at LDE. Ayers has proven that he can be pretty damn strong coming from the right side of the Defense.
So - Question 1 - would you even consider putting Ayers at OLB this year in base (and moving him to LDE in nickel)?
Assuming Denver is more conservative with Ayers and sticks him at DE, next to Thomas/Vickerson, next to Fairley/Dereus, next to Doom, then Denver needs and OLB in the second round or through FA.
So - Question 2 - who can start on day 1 and make an impact at Strong OLB?
DJ? I dunno. Maybe he can go strongside. What do you all think?
(24) (56) (99) (Rk) (92) (21)
(55) (59) (??)
(23) (20)
In nickel - I like Denver's D a little more. Syd the kid gets the call at nickelback.
My line is Ayers - Thomas/Vickerson - Fairley/Dareus - Doom (lined up outside the LT's left shoulder)
My LBs are DJ and Woodyard or our new LB'er.
My safeties are Hill & Dawk and CBs are Goody and the Champ.
(24) (56) (99) (Rk) (92) (22) (21)
(55) (??)
(23) (20)
So - anyway - just a stream of conscoiusness post. What do you all think?
This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR
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I think I'd just draft Peterson instead......
Just kidding dude, I’m in the Fairley-Dareus camp with you. I don’t think it’s too far fetched to line Ayers at the Strong Side behind Doom, if they do something stupid like draft Bowers. If they don’t, I say leave Ayers at RDE.
"Vegetarians are cool. All I eat are vegetarians - except for the occasional mountain lion steak "
Ted Nugent
after getting rid of Bannan/Williams today, I think it’s practically guaranteed we don’t choose Peterson.
rumor is that
Bannan will be back for less $$$
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where did you hear that? Link Please!
"Vegetarians are cool. All I eat are vegetarians - except for the occasional mountain lion steak "
Ted Nugent
What about Mario Haggan
I was also impressed this year by Jason Hunter and Joe Mays. And I don’t remember David Veikune getting any play last year. Or we could just draft Casey Matthews in the third round.
Playoffs!?!? Playoffs!?!? Don't Talk About Playoffs!?!?
+1 regarding Mays
I also thought Mays did a decent job. Wouldn’t mind getting Matthews but most will probably say that a third round pick is a reach for him considering his injury he aggravated at the combine. Despite this, i think he’ll do well and wouldn’t be mad if we spent a third round pick on him.
Fairley has been said to be to light for our new defense...
I disagree with that assessment because for one fact…Dumervil was too light and too short to play DE! Bah humbug I say. Fairley has that unique physical body that can shed blocks and find his way to the quarterback. He is very athletic and plays nasty…Something we haven’t seen in years and these kids that don’t remember the Orange Crush and the way they played rely on pundits and analysts to make decisions for them which most of the time is a lot of hot air…Fairley is going to make some team very very happy and why shouldn’t it be ours? BroncosfanISD just stated that DT/DE take 2 or 3 years to develop in the NFL. I’ve read that statement many times on here by people that really know something about football. It generally does take them time to develop but there are always exceptions to the rule. Elvis, Fairley Vickerson and Ayers can start out day one and compete…Great post 7…
do you really want the too small doom next to the too small Fairley?
That sounds like a d-line that would get pushed around on run plays.
Playoffs!?!? Playoffs!?!? Don't Talk About Playoffs!?!?
Good point, I, too, would put Fairley on Ayers' side
"The nice thing when you’re the second pick is that you’re going to get a player of that worthiness as well as a player of need." John Fox said suck it, Patrick Peterson lovers;-)!!
+1 Bfree
so Fairley checked in at the combine at 290 something? I heard he also lost weight prior to the combine so excel in drills but regardless, what the hell is the difference between 290 & 300? Fairley is one nasty dude & I’d love to have him.
"Vegetarians are cool. All I eat are vegetarians - except for the occasional mountain lion steak "
Ted Nugent
Fairley vs. Dareus
Fairley weighed in at 6’4" and 290 lbs.
Dareus weighed in at 6’3" and 319 lbs.
29 lbs. is quite a difference when it comes to evaluating if someone should be a defensive tackle or a defensive end.
It will make a huge difference when it comes to stopping the
Run also. Dareus is just more physically imposing then Fairley IMO. Dareus is a thick built dude from head to toe. Fairley is built up top but his smaller lower body scares me.
by gnarlybroncodude on Mar 3, 2011 6:37 PM MST up reply actions
Yeah.
I’d say Dareus is at the top of my board. Unfortunately, he might be atop Carolina’s now too.
I just don't like a person showing up at an interview with his/her hat pulled down around his eyes...
It shows me he’s a case and that case may be laziness…I think Fairley has the frame to add the pounds if needs be.
Dareus could even speak proper English at his interview, makes me wonder how he got through school.
Watching that interview made me question his smarts as well as ability to learn. He came across to me like another Pac-man “I likeded the script clubs” Jones. M.Austin would be a good 3-tech and he did well at the combine and he could be picked later on in the draft. The player that i think would be a good addition is Kerrigan and IMO is what you want in a player.
Warning: If you're reading this it has been censored.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
I prefer Dareus but I don't think Fairley is too small
He’s smaller than Fox typically uses, but he’s a special talent (or, at least last year he was anyway).
The “rule” is that DTs do take a while to develop, but when you buy a DT at #2 you expect him to make immediate impact. I’m not comparing these guys to Suh so i don’t want anybody to start that whole deal. I’m just saying these guys aren’t being drafted as projects. Top-five or ten draft talent are always expected to be exceptions to the rule. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t. I do think Dareus is more NFL ready but Fairley has the higher ceiling.
"The nice thing when you’re the second pick is that you’re going to get a player of that worthiness as well as a player of need." John Fox said suck it, Patrick Peterson lovers;-)!!
You seriously think Woodyard beats out Mays @ MLB? Really?
Woodyard’s a natural “Will” or maybe a lite “Sam” at best. Dont sleep on Joe Mays or even Spencer Larsen as Im sure he’s no longer our FB…he’ll be fighting for a LB job now
"Attitude reflects Leadership" Hogblog...aka KSM
IMO if we had to go into the season with no new LB brought in
my starting LB core would be Woodyard WLB, Joe Mays MLB and DJ Williams SLB. I personally don’t like that because none of those guy are Elite players that make people around them better. I think they will draft at least one LB and if FA happens they will probably bring someone in.
by gnarlybroncodude on Mar 3, 2011 6:31 PM MST reply actions
Also I am Taking Dareus over Fairley.
Dareus is a huge DT that can stop the run and rush the passer. He is built. IMO Fairleys lower body is to thin. I think Fairley wills struggle to stop the run at the NFL level
by gnarlybroncodude on Mar 3, 2011 6:33 PM MST up reply actions
I don't really care who we get between Fairley & Dareus
They’re both studs & I’d be happy with both.
My order would be Fairley, Dareus, Peterson. I really wouldn’t mind Peterson if we got a combo of 2 from Paea, Austin, Wilkerson, Nevis, Leugit in the second round.
"Vegetarians are cool. All I eat are vegetarians - except for the occasional mountain lion steak "
Ted Nugent
I dont' think Wood is a good fit at Mike. I think if we have to put someone at Mike it should be DJ
with Wood at Will. I also don’t think Ayers is fast enough to play OLB in the 4-3 especially in the Fox 4-3 where speed is a must. I think he will be a 3 down LDE. He is one of our best run stoppers on the line and we don’t have a pass rusher that can spell him so by default he gets to stay and see what he can do.
Tim Tebow wears 3WM and drinks Tuscan whole milk.
+1 all that
"The nice thing when you’re the second pick is that you’re going to get a player of that worthiness as well as a player of need." John Fox said suck it, Patrick Peterson lovers;-)!!
I don't think Ayers should be SLB
I would keep him at RDE in the base and move him over a guard in the nickle, with Hunter on one edge, Vickerson/new guy inside, and Doom sacking the QB.
I love positional-scheme mockups. They are important, and are critical for meshing teambuilding with gameday 45. I like the DJ Wood combo at nickle, and I am ok with DJ at WLB. I think Wood backs up DJ at WLB, and fills in if needed at MLB. Haggan and Mays should be allowed to duke it out for SLB. I would LOVE to get a 3 down MLB, since I don’t think Woodyard is an everygame starter (I like woodyard in small intense doses). What do you think of this:
Change your opinions, keep to your principles; change your leaves, keep intact your roots.
by Jeremy Bolander on Mar 3, 2011 7:15 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
whoops
kinda big…
Change your opinions, keep to your principles; change your leaves, keep intact your roots.
by Jeremy Bolander on Mar 3, 2011 7:15 PM MST up reply actions
Thanks
for the visualization. Wish I could do that. If I could I might be a “Head Coach” :oP
You can be dumb... that's ok! There are many dumb people.
You can be an %&*hole... that's ok! There are many of these as well.
Unfortunately you cannot be both...
Ok... prove me wrong.
That helps
in nickel – I would put ayers on the outside, but other than that I like it. Still not sold on any one LB in the draft – but I nonetheless agree that we need s 3 down LB
Ther are lots of assumptions in my post.
I forget about COx! I really liked him. He did remind me of Deltha though, in both good and bad ways.
I don’t think there’s any way that Denver goes into the season w/o a new starter at one of the LB spots.
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Go Broncos!
Also - Bannan will be back and he's a very good nickel DT
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I hope your right
have you heard something specific? I asked google but it assumed I wanted to know something about cutting bananas… I understand fully the move to cut, but I would like to see them remedy the error of the contract with a newer, more sensible offer. I really like him lined up in that 2-tech role, forcing the center into a quick decision on shotgun snaps. Put him at RDT when DOOM is lined out wide, and the RT will be on an island. An island of DOOM. My interest in Ayers one gapping over a guard’s inside shoulder is sort of an experimental notion by me, and I keep tossing it out there to see if it sticks…Darrell reid was used in that capacity on 3rd downs, as was Vonnie Holliday, and I really liked the pressure they were generating. It takes a well rounded size-strength-speed combo, but it doesn’t have to be amazing in any of the categories. I think that describes Ayers, who is also a technician, and handwork there is probably critical. If we retain Bannan, it becomes unnecessary, since we could get all four on the field at once.
However, even if we retain Bannan, if he isn’t getting any pressure inside, the Ayers switchup might be worth a try…
Change your opinions, keep to your principles; change your leaves, keep intact your roots.
by Jeremy Bolander on Mar 3, 2011 8:24 PM MST up reply actions
I think if Wood gets the start it just has to be at Will, which puts DJ at Mike
Sam is our open seat nearly any way we toss it around. I see Haggan as a DE if he’s retained. Mays is a question mark to me at the Sam position. He could pleasnatly surprise, but I’d be really surprised. More importantly, I don’t think management goes into the season any more confident at that position than I am. Meaning, Sam is where we have to focus whether it be FA or the draft. And if it’s in the draft, you probably want a Sam/Mike mix to sort of hedge your bets.
Nice visual! Love seeing Jones’ name in there!
"The nice thing when you’re the second pick is that you’re going to get a player of that worthiness as well as a player of need." John Fox said suck it, Patrick Peterson lovers;-)!!
Ha - And I heard it on the radio tonight
sounds like the idea is like what the Pack did w/ Hawk. we signed Bannan for too much $$ originally, but he knew being realeased was a wink & a handshake, see you here tomorrow, deal.
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Go Broncos!
Martez Wilson for SLB
From ESPN postcombine:
Wilson lined up on the inside at Illinois, and he has the size to play there in the NFL. However, we watched his film during East-West Shrine week and after seeing good burst from him we felt his best fit was on the outside, and his combine performance backed that up.
Wilson ran the fastest 40-yard dash (4.49 seconds) of all the linebackers in Indianapolis, and at Illinois he rushed the passer off the edge at times. He could play outside in a 3-4 scheme and also has the long arms (34.5 inches) and upper-body strength (23 bench-press reps at 225 pounds) to reroute tight ends on the strong side in a 4-3 alignment. His versatility and potential should move him at least into the third round and possibly to the fringe of the second.
Maybe late 2nd? Hmmm
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I like Wilson as well but, do you think he would be development player?
Or do you think he would start day one?
I woudln't be against it
He has such a high ceiling, but man he is unpolished even at ILB. But you never know when a good scheme fit, coach-player relationship or position change can just click with a player… Like I say, it would be very tempting, and is probably one of the strategies on our board… I don’t think he last til late second though. i haven’t really looked at mock orders or made my own board, but just guessing, I think either the #36, or a trade that puts us around #32… Why the ESPN article had him ranked outside of the 2nd round to begin with seems odd. i had no idea he had fallen that far from postseason outlook… I would certainly rank him ahead of a guy like Greg Jones, even though that isn’t my personal preference for order…
Change your opinions, keep to your principles; change your leaves, keep intact your roots.
by Jeremy Bolander on Mar 3, 2011 9:18 PM MST up reply actions
You and I have talked about Jones before..
He’s been both of our favorites and we both think he’s far more NFL ready, even if his ceiling is lower. Did you hear Fox’s radio interview the other day where he was asked about what could be gained at the combine and how much a player could move based on his performance there? Fox specifically named the 40-times and seemed to genuinely put a lot of stock in them. Jones ran a bad 40 and Wilson did what we thought he’d do. After the combine I looked at some recent LBs Fox took and their 40 times. He didn’t seem to put a lot of stock in fast times (although I only looked at a couple players, trustworthy 40 times are a little hard to find more than a few years back). Anyway, Jon Beason was taken in the 1st round and ran a 4.72, so I stopped looking. After hearing Fox though, now I’m not sure what to think of how he feels about 40 times. Any thoughts on this as it relates to Jonesy?
"The nice thing when you’re the second pick is that you’re going to get a player of that worthiness as well as a player of need." John Fox said suck it, Patrick Peterson lovers;-)!!
Great post
If you want to tell me why Denver’s taking Pat Peterson, start another post.
Hahaha I love it! Although by quoting that, I guess I’m semi-guilty already lol
Question one: No. Ayers isn’t fluid enough or quick enough for the coverage responsibilities in this defense. I realize there’s a lot of running on downs one and two, but still.
Question Two: I think Mays is currently penciled in as the default Sam. I strongly believe a starting quality Sam will be brought in during FA to compete and/or take that spot.
I agree with everything to this point in your post with the rather small exception of having Wood at Will and DJ at Mike. Wood is faster and lighter to get sideline to sideline against the run and to cover RBs coming out. DJ is the jack of all trades and would stand up better than Wood in thumping RBs up the middle on a consistent basis.
I would give Cox the nickle spot over Squid. Fun stuff. Rec
"The nice thing when you’re the second pick is that you’re going to get a player of that worthiness as well as a player of need." John Fox said suck it, Patrick Peterson lovers;-)!!
I think Ayers is a DE only
he is too big for a LB in Fox’s D and as Rodney A says not good enough for coverage responsibilities.
Give me the big Marcell Dareus on the inside please and maybe another DT in the 2nd. I like Vickerson as a rotational / back up guy but still not sure he is the starter talent needed.
"The Holy Writ of Gloucester Rugby Club demands: first, that the forwards shall win the ball; second, that the forwards shall keep the ball; and third, the backs shall buy the beer." - Doug Ibbotson
I think Ayers is a DE only, he is too big for a LB.
I agree. Now if we could come up with a place Doom could play LB and still get in on most of the pass rushes, that would be great. Kind of a 5-2. Maybe at the Will he could , but DJ said he won’t play Sam. How about;
LDE Bowers/late draft pick LDT Vickerson/ Leonard RDT Taylor, Austin or Paea/Thomas RDE Ayers/Hunter
Sam-#46 draft pick/Woodyard
Mike-D.J./Mays
Will-Doom/Haggan
Is this really stupid?
Doom is worse in coverage than he is against the run
He’s smaller than Ayers and closer to the desired weight, but he’s just not very good in coverage anyway.
The Will side linebacker is usually your fastest linebacker. They need to cover quick running backs coming out of the backfield and also get from their sideline to the other sideline in a hurry and through trash to help in run support. Haggan is 270 pounds – way too big for this system and especially too big to play the weakside, IMO. Sam is the opposite. It’s generally reserved for your biggest, strongest linebacker. The Sam covers the TE coming out for passes so height and size are a big bonus (there’s not a lot of difference in size between the LBs in Fox’s system, but height to cover tall TEs is still very much preferred. Running plays are most often designed to go to the strongside so your SS LB doesn’t have to be as quick since he’s not covering speedy RBs and he’s not trying to get to a RB on the other sideline quite as often. The Sam needs to be strong and tough so that he can take out the lead blocking TE when needed but also quick enough to get around him and thump the RB when possible. The Sam is a jack of all trades – not necessarily your strongest or your fastest, but is able to do all things and should be a very reliable tackler above all else, IMO.
As I said, with Fox’s Panthers there’s not a really big difference between body types at LBer positions. There’s basically fast and faster, tough and toughest, then just small and less small. The average weight of his starting Will during his nine years in Carolina was 236 pounds. The Sams and MIkes each averaged 240 pounds. They’re all small and quick. So where possible, you just want your fastest on the weakside, your tallest/biggest/strongest on the strongside, and your best linebacker, IMO, in the middle.
I guess that’s a really long way of saying if it were me, I’d have Wood at Will, DJ at Mike (mainly because I don’t believe Wood can play Mike or Sam), and Mays at Sam. Haggan and Hunter are DEs or situational LBs that couldn’t come in full time even for injury, IMO. And Doom can’t cover. Putting him on the line allows him to go after the QB on every down. That’s where we want him. He just needs to have big Vick next to him to mask his deficiencies in run stopping.
"The nice thing when you’re the second pick is that you’re going to get a player of that worthiness as well as a player of need." John Fox said suck it, Patrick Peterson lovers;-)!!
Thanks a lot Rodney.
I’m going to copy and paste that for future reference.
So, bottom line, Doom can’t play LB in a 4-3. Unless it would be the Mike and that would be stupid to waste his pass rush ability.
I found this site the other day..
http://40-yard-dash-times.com/denver-broncos-40-yard-times.html
"The nice thing when you’re the second pick is that you’re going to get a player of that worthiness as well as a player of need." John Fox said suck it, Patrick Peterson lovers;-)!!
Thanks
Really only got how fast DJ is out of that site.
How’s this evaluation of guys on the roster and Dareus as #2 pick.?
LDE Ayers/Hunter; LDT Dareus/Leonard RDT Vickerson/Thomas/Unrein RDE Doom/Haggan/Veikune
Sam-Douglas/Robinson
Mike-Mays/Kelley
Will-DJ/Woodyard
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