Okay - Now lets talk about the 800 pound gorilla in the room
by super7 on Apr 30, 2011 2:28 PM MDT
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No DTs. Still. Hmm.
Denver added a ton of talent in the past 3 days. Overall, I'm pretty pleased and I am beginning to understand what John Fox and John Elway want to do with this team.
But..yeah, I'm surprised that Denver didn't draft a single Defensive Tackle in the first 5 rounds. Actually, I'm shocked.
I was in the Dareus camp. But I wasn't sold all the way. There's lots of risk in Dareus. And I wasn't convinced that he was the 'safe pick' in the first 3 and I most definitely wasn't conviced that Dareus was the #1 player available in the draft. And although he played for Saban, I am not 100% sure that I see that as an overwhelming positive. So, he played in an NFL scheme with NFL caliber players. Rolando McClain did too and his rookie year was subpar, and he played right behind Dareus.
By Thursday morning, I felt Miller would be the pick and once I realized that Doom would be the weakside DE, the Miller pick grew on me. In the grand scheme of things, I want Denver to pick the player that they think will be (and already is) the most elite, and I think that Miller is likely more elite and safer than Dareus. The only way to know that for sure is to see them play next year, so let's not go postal because of something that MIGHT happen.
So, first, lets talk about this thought/complaint that I keep seeing on MHR:
"In such a deep DT draft, it's terrible that Denver didn't come away with one of them"
I was hoping we would. But I disagree with 1 component of that sentence. "Deep draft" at DT is what I disagree with. Sure, there were a lot of DTs available, but Denver should only draft one if:
1) He can start on day 1
2) They think an available player at a need position is NOT better than the best available DT
Von Miller was drafted over Dareus because of point #2. And point #2 may also be the reason Marvin Austin and Steve Paea, Fua, and Ellis were all passed on in rounds 2 and 3. But I'm not sure Austin projects as a starter. Not an obvious one anyway. He has questions upon questions. Screw Mayock, Kiper, Al WIlliams, Mike Lombardi, Charlie Casserly, and Mcshay. If they were really well thought of, they'd be in a front office making decisions that matter to NFL teams. Mayock had Moreno and Ayers as his #3 and #4 prospects in 2009. Over Stafford, Sanchez, Freeman, and Raji. Well, Mayock and McDaniels were very wrong.
If Denver had better grades for Austin, Paea, Ellis, and the other post-first-round DTs than Moore, Franklin, and Irving then they would have drafted them. What, would you rather Denver passed up talent (BPA) for need? Not me. If there's one thing Denver lacks as a team, it's talent. Especially on defense.
The only sure thing DTs in the draft who were consensus day 1 starters without huge questions were all taken in round 1. I thought Phil Taylor was where the cliff was. If we didn't get him or a guy before him, we weren't going to draft a DT this year with the idea that we'd be starting a drafted DT this year. I don't understand the vitrol fron not drafting a DT who isn't a starter from day 1 in the second round when there were LBs, RBs, OL, safeties, and TEs who were starters from day 1. And remember, the franchise wants 4 starters. Well, now it looks like they got themselves 4 starters. Now they are forced to look at DTs in free agency or via trade. I'm fine with that.
We chose Von Miller, potentially a Derrick Thomas-like player, over a DT starter (Dareus, Fairley, Liuget, and Taylor).
That said, I was hoping we'd have a new starting DT on the roster after this weekend. Denver's current DTs leave so much to be desired that I'd be willing to bet you that 28 of the 31 other NFL teams wouldn't willingly take more than 1 of these guys on their roster:
Vickerson, Leonard, Unrein (Thomas and McBean are RFA's).
Unimpressive? Yeou bet.
Okay, so moving on, where do we find a DT or two? Well, Free Agency or trades. Denver has some tradeable pieces and Denver also has plenty of money to get into the Free Agency game. I don't see why Denver can't go into 2011 with a very good to great DT starter and a rotation at the other DT spot.
Denver needed 2 DTs, 2 Safeties, 2 LBs, 1 OL, 1 RB, and 1 TE. I'd say we're doing just fine so far. Let's stop talking ourselves into the idea that this draft was deep in STARTING DTs. There were only 4, maaaaybe 5, and possibly 6 if you count Jenkins and Austin (who I am not persoanlly convinced is a day 1 starter). And Denver wanted Jenkins, but not Austin. So, Denver seemily had starter grades on 5 DTs. They didn't get any of them. Why? Because they valued Von Miller and more draft picks over the 5 they had graded as starters.
This draft was not deep with DT starters for more than 5 teams, per the Broncos. So, maybe that's historically deep, or maybe it's not. I guess we'll see.
Denver must have confidence that they can reasonably round out their DT personnel in the post-draft marketplace. John Fox has earned the benefit of the doubt for me, unlike his predecessor. Let the proof be in the pudding.
For the record, I wanted a DT. I'm a little disappointed. But I'm not upset. I trust Fox and Elway. Fox deserves your confidence and trust. For now.
This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR
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Good post
I hope they really like what they see in the Free Agent DT market.
by HBobbyT on Apr 30, 2011 2:49 PM MDT via mobile reply actions
Think about it...
Now our FA focus is pretty clear: DT, another back to spell Moreno and depth everywhere else. In my mind, I think we’re sitting pretty.
Despair: It's always darkest just before it goes pitch black.
Good post, supe. You wrote down pretty much how I feel about this draft, as well, but much more articulately
Now, as a fan of this team for life, as I’m sure everyone else here is, we know how dangerous it is to rely on free agency to fill our biggest hole on defense. We have all been down this road before (Brown-cos), and are gonna be wary to continue using FA as a fixer for our DT needs.
In my eyes, this draft was our best opportunity to grab a stud DT with our high pick. We’ve drafted stud LBs before (DJ Williams), stud Safeties (Steve Atwater), and stud O-linemen (Iron Clady), but we haven’t drafted a stud DT in….well….almost ever, with the exception of a select few (Trev Pryce, Ma’a Tanuvasa). My heart was just as broken as yours when we didn’t bring in that DT, and I let my feelings be known about it. I got over it, and got on board the Miller Express, but I was also under the assumption that we could still tab a DT in the next round or two. Not only did we not do that, but we didn’t draft a single one.
Now, sure, there are some good DTs available in FA (at least I think there are…anyone care to compile a list of available DTs in the FA pool? Much appreciated!), but I’m concerned that we may miss out on the best ones, or we bring in the wrong ones, or we just go status quo with what we have on the roster, and that ain’t much. I like Big Vick, and think he can do just fine, and if Marcus Thomas was brought back, I would be pleased since he is still developing, and may have a breakthrough this upcoming season, but then what is left? Not much.
Anyhow, apologies for the lengthy reply. Great post, super7, and hopefully we can field a much better defense than he have for the past 4 yrs.
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The Commish put the whole thing on "hiatus", so to speak.
Check out these 2 leagues, though.
I don’t know if you know Sic, but he was the other mod in PMFL, and both of his leagues are looking for new owners, you know, once PSN gets back online.
I'm not your friend, buddy!
He's not your buddy, guy!
I'm not your guy, friend!
PSN ID: Zo-gernaut
"They got Okoye at fullback" - Marc Munford
"I don't give a f**k. He can play wide receiver." Steve Atwater
Here is a link to Walter Football's list of available DT in FA.
The first two were franchised by their current teams, so getting them would be costly for us. A 1st and 3rd round draft pick in next year’s draft. Those two would be Ngata and Soliai. Cofield and Mebane are the next two DT’s on the list and they appear to be Un-Restricted FA’s.
As a “Self-proclaimed expert” I believe we should target either Cofield or Mebane (I would prefer both, but don’t think that is realistic) and try to resign Marcus Thomas and Justin Bannan. Maybe even bring back Jamal Williams…maybe.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."
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Sorry, the link doesn't appear to have posted.
http://walterfootball.com/freeagents2011DT.php
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."
~Dr. Seuss
"If there is anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot NOW!"
...Zaphod Beeblebrox-Intergalactic President
"If you didn't know, now you know"
Seems unlikely we can get them... but
I’m all for it if we can. I anticipate we will pickup our temporary coverage for the interior D-line from those players that are culled in TC by teams not as desperate for that position as we are…some of these players will be the exact rookies we were calling for XFE to draft in rounds 5-7. Meanwhile, we used thos draft picks to fill essentially every other desperate team need we had…… and we had a bunch.
And here is a link to a list of Undrafted players we could look at
Some fair rotational bodies in that list
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Orton in 2010, Tebow in 2011, Super Bowl in 2012! Then the world ends, so who gives a frack what happens next.
by Sharpe as a Tack on May 1, 2011 6:51 PM MDT up reply actions
1st and a 3rd For Ngata?
I smell a bargain.
"Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space."
"It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potatoes" Douglas Adams
by orange&blue_aussie on Apr 30, 2011 7:17 PM MDT up reply actions
Plus $15 million or so
Assuming the Ravens don’t match the salary — which they will
If given the chance I think we need to try to get this done.
Ngata is a once in a decade talent. The biggest risk here is that we dont know the draft position for next year. If, God forbid, we had the first pick in next years draft and had the option to pick Luck or pick up half of another teams draft in a trade down, then it would not be worth it. If we have a good year and draft somewhere in the last half of the first then it would be a great deal.
no way!
He’s not worth a huge contract and a 1st and 3rd round for a 3-4 DE/DT
by JuiceIsLoose on Apr 30, 2011 10:26 PM MDT up reply actions
Yeah, that's the key there
That much money AND a 1 and a 3 is just way too much. Only playoff teams with an immediate shot at the bowl would consider that kind of thing. And those teams are usually too smart to give so much
Von. Doom. Pow!
Well...
Dawk could be gone. He and his $6M salary would go a long way to getting this over the line. Ngata would murder in the 4-3. With Ayers and Dumervil on either side of him and Vickerson (or other) I think that would be a sacrifice actually worth making.
Not going to happen though. I just think the concept of immediately ruling him out because it would cost a 1 and a 3 is premature. With Ngata and Miller included and Dumervil back in the team. And I suspect with Irving directing traffic from the middle, the Broncos would NOT be picking top 10 again next year.
"Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space."
"It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potatoes" Douglas Adams
by orange&blue_aussie on Apr 30, 2011 11:26 PM MDT up reply actions
I thought the same thing about Dawkins
So I say this in support rather than as a dissenting opinion. My initial reaction to Quinton Carter (probably my favorite safety going into the draft due to his versatility), was that a 2nd safety meant no room for Dawkins or his big contract.
But the press conference and Fox’s words relating to that has pretty much changed my mind. Six safeties is a lot, especially considering one of them makes so much money. Still, I now think that Hill is on his way out, but that Dawkins will stay.
Carter’s versatility and somewhat of a “tweener” status probably makes him ideal to play in coverage for Dawk in nickle and dime.
Anyway, I like the logic. And I too would love Ngata. Maybe it is premature to rule him out. But somehow I still do. I don’t see that as even remotely likely. But then again, I thought we’d take a couple DTs in the draft. So yeah, surprises happen.
If Ngata was a FA, I’d say we’d maybe break the bank to bring him to Denver. I just can’t imagine a re-tooling team giving so much in future draft picks.
Von. Doom. Pow!
Fair enough Rodney.
I respect your opinion greatly based on your contributions that I’ve read. And you give a balanced response on my point too.
I’m not one of these fans who says things like “Champ will mentor the new CB and make them great”. In general i think that’s bs. Champ has yet to prove he can do that with anyone but arguably Darrent Williams.
Dawkins is an exception though. He does make the people around him better. He’s that kind of personality. I think with two new rookie safeties, Dawkin’s value will increase and make the decision to keep him more difficult than it otherwise would be. On pure, current on field contribution, he’d be a likely cut in my book. We’ll have to see it play out.
But what this draft has done is freed the Bronco’s to do away with some expensive contracts like DJ’s and BDawk’s – if that’s the way they see as being fiscally responsible. If they believe that they can redeploy those finances towards new acquisitions like Ngata, Mebane etc then it should be game on.
By the way, I’m sure you noticed Fox’s description of how he planned to use Miller. Sounds like something I read a month or so back. Kudos.
"Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space."
"It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potatoes" Douglas Adams
by orange&blue_aussie on May 1, 2011 1:13 AM MDT up reply actions
if we did let DJ go
are we solid with WW or Mohammed starting in his place. I’d be so excited to land Ngata that I probably wouldn’t mind giving up a 1st and 3rd to get him, just wondering if we could actually afford it with Clady needing a deal soon as well (I’m just assuming here, not actually sure when his rookie deal is over).
"It's a car wreck that's what it is" - John Lynch
"I couldn't be on defense man, Lynch be hittin' everybody man" - Rod Smith
I suppose you let competition sort out whether they're solid at DJ's spot, Lynch
Re: affordability – I’m no salary cap guy. But we really don’t have that many big contracts. The roster’s filled with a lot of 1-3 year players. Harris isn’t getting re-signed by the looks of things. Really, it’s doom, champ, Kuper and that’s it. Lloyd, Royal and Clady are coming up. I would think you could squeeze in another big contract. But I’m not sure. I’m just rationalising my accounts rather than calculating them.
"Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space."
"It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potatoes" Douglas Adams
by orange&blue_aussie on May 2, 2011 4:49 AM MDT up reply actions
I guess when I actually think about it
we’re in pretty good shape cap wise to make a move like that.
"It's a car wreck that's what it is" - John Lynch
"I couldn't be on defense man, Lynch be hittin' everybody man" - Rod Smith
Ngata is a wise decision
he does SO many things for the Ravens!
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by the new Bradfather on Apr 30, 2011 11:51 PM MDT up reply actions
he is unbelievably good
makes that already great defense that much better
"It's a car wreck that's what it is" - John Lynch
"I couldn't be on defense man, Lynch be hittin' everybody man" - Rod Smith
Awesome post!
I was going to post again today but you took the words right out of my mouth. Well done.
"Nothing in the world can take the place of Persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race." - Calvin Coolidge
I agree that the "immediate starter" pool of DT was no deeper than normal
What there was this year was a lot of DT’s who will challenge DT’s on the roster. Force them to up their game or lose their job. Maybe it will take them a year to work into a starter’s role — but that is exactly what rebuilding is about. Rebuilding is not about immediate starters. You only get immediate starters in the 1st two rounds.
And sorry, I keep hearing “we’ll go free agency”. Keep repeating that but it has nothing to do with reality. The pool of DT’s in FA is completely fixed and known. And the only ones who are better than what we’ve already gotten rid off (Bannan), are players who we will never sign (Cofield, Mebane).
So our DT roster is going to be weaker next year than it was this year. Not stronger. Not the same. Weaker.
Maybe everyone else here is willing to trust that someone somewhere has some unknown plan. But heck — I sure can’t see what it is other than — keep repeating the words “someone somewhere has a plan so trust them”.
Denver was going to have holes on their D this year
no matter what they did this weekend. IMO- they did a good job. They seemed cool and calm and like they followed their plan – especially now that i’ve listened to their press conf.
Yibberat, here's one of those statements that drives me nuts...
When you were speaking of Mebane and Coffield you said they are “players who we will never sign” as if it is a fact that you know from first hand knowledge….bullcrap!
I’m not saying we will, won’t or maybe we won’t even try but making a statement like that strips you of ALL your credibility when speaking on this topic.
The QB position is set!
by broncofaninIL on Apr 30, 2011 9:51 PM MDT up reply actions
You can rely on wishful thinking all you want
FA’s overwhelmingly tend to stay with the teams they are already on if they are under 30 and elite. That’s a fact.
And teams that admit that they are in rebuilding mode do not splurge on free agents from outside when in doing so they are going to be competing with teams that merely need one piece to get to the super Bowl.
Again, you can dream of all sorts of scenarios in which we sign them. That’s what the offseason is all about. But don’t pretend that my assertion damages my credibility. It merely pops your delusion.
I'm with yibberat
I think the Broncos should simply refuse to field a team on Sundays unless there is a draft do over and they are allowed to take a 5th or 6th round defensive tackle. Otherwise, why even bother?
The immediate starter pool WAS much deeper than normal
5 DTs taken by early in the 2nd is much more than “normal”… still doesn’t mean there was value in drafting DTs at the exact time Denver picked….
I think we left some value on the board when we passed on some of those 2nd-tier DT guys in the 2nd round… I think fox outright said he was hoping Jurvis was available at 45, but the ‘skins took him. Maybe we were hoping Nevis or Casey or Fua fell to us in the 4th… but it didn’t happen.
We took solid prospects with value at pretty much every slot… you can quibble about whether they were the ebst pick or not, but it was EFX’s board and they followed it, and no DTs were the top value when we drafted. Personally I would’ve passed on Franklin or Moore in the 2nd for a DT… particularly since Carter fell to us in the 4th. Drafting 2 safeties likely means we will cut a decent player, which is less than ideal given the black-hole of suck at DT…. but given there was no way to predict Carter would fall to the 4th (just like we couldn’t predict Shanny would pre-empt us in the 2nd), passing on our top-player on our board doesn’t seem like a smart strategy either.
The nice thing is because FA comes AFTER the draft this year, we can see very clearly where there might be players that make this team and make investments/offers as appropriate. Given we have yet to tap that player pool, and the fact that our defensive rebuild is likely a multi-year effort anyway, I am somewhat pacified, if not super-enthusiastic about EFX’s work to date….
fox deserves respect
i tottally agree i am willing to see how this draft class plays for their spots on this team!!!
Great Post and appreciate it...
Looking at the DT free agents there seem to be quite a few…Where it get’s sketchy though is after the 4th or 5th one…The rest don’t hold a lot of clout…Ouch…
I'm just not sure why
everyone wants to jump on the McDaniels screwed up with Ayers and Moreno bandwagons. You can’t really evaluate this until after the third year. If they don’t do it after this year, then yeah, I will go with them being busts. But not yet.
"Woodrow Wilson was an out and out racist" - Dr. Stanton
162-0 until we aren't
by thejbow on Apr 30, 2011 7:47 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
+1
Ayers looked pretty good before his injury last season. And now that we have a couple of edge rushers, his bullrush and upfield surge is going to look quite nice as a complement. I think Vickerson and Thomas (who I’m sure we’ll be resigning) will both serve quite well at the DT position, with Fields a decent rotational player. I’d be happy if we re-signed JB, as well. One solid free agent signee and the line would be more than serviceable in Fox’s scheme. Though I will say I’m intrigued by the idea of adding Haynesworth — a move that, coupled with the draft and the return to health of Dumervil and Ayers, I think would immediately turn us into an elite defense.
As for Moreno, I’m ready to see what he can do with a few holes. Beadles and Walton with a year under their belts, a healthy Clady, and Franklin — who by most reports is a man mover in the run game (he himself knows he’s better at run blocking than pass blocking, so that’s the first step toward improving his footwork at RT) — could finally reveal to us the Moreno that tore it up at Georgia. Plus, Moreno has been very good in the screen game.
Get another back — Williams via free agency, or an undrafted RB who fits the style of runner Fox looks for — and I think we’ll be pretty productive as a running team this season.
Last year got away from us. But I don’t think we’re as far off as many people do. I really REALLY like our linebacker corps; DJ is perfect on the weak side, where he excels, Irving is a steal, and Miller is, well…let’s just hope he stays healthy and shows us what he’s capable of.
I too don't really dislike the idea of Haynesworth
he doesn’t seem like he’s too much trouble when he gets what he wants which seems to be playing DT in a 4-3. So interested at a minimum in seeing what he would bring. Even if it was for a couple of years while we develop someone from next years draft it’s at the least plausible.
As much as I like Williams unless he signs for a reasonable amount he just seems like too much money to pair with Moreno in the backfield. I’m interested in Hightower who seemed to show flashes a brilliance and I think he’s solid all round.
Also really happy with the way EFX bolstered the linebacking corps and having DJ move back to weakside really excites me too. Hopefully everyone can stay healthy and Ayers builds on some of the success he had last year. I don’t think we need as stud DT to become respectable, but it is easily our weakest position.
"It's a car wreck that's what it is" - John Lynch
"I couldn't be on defense man, Lynch be hittin' everybody man" - Rod Smith
Free agent market
One thing about it after the so called deep draft pool of D Tackles there really won’t be a big market for the free agents. There are some out there and even thou I was against signing Tommie Harris before the draft . Now i wouldn’t be opposed to kicking his tires on an incentive laden contract. Then there is the two Jenkins boys so there are other possibilities out there. However I would not break the bank for any of these guys . Marcus Thomas will not get a better deal somewhere else and I think Denver will offer him a very fair deal .
I was one of those people asking that question and I think we’re underrating one thing, too.
Scheme.
Our defensive schemes have SUCKED. The problem with offensive minded coaches is that they don’t draft for defenses so its hard to find quality defensive coaches.
Our defensive coaches are looking to be better than anything we’ve had in the last 10 years. Probably longer.
Scheme. folks. We’ll be better at defense just on virtue of a better coaching staff alone.
Draft Peterson. Elway fears him.
I have to respectfully disagree
While I wasn’t a fan of the change to the 3-4, (nothing against the 3-4, I just didn’t think we had the right personnel to execute it correctly) I think the scheme was the least of our problems on defense.
We just don’t have the horses. As they say, you can’t coach talent. The defense has declined from what was already a historically bad defense in 2008, to an even worse one in 2010. This was a result not so much poor scheming (although, admittedly, McDaniels did him self no favors in that regard) but of inexcusably poor decisions on draft day.
Well then how do you explain being 12th on defense in 2009 with a less talented crew than the one we fielded in 2010?
"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche
"Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great." Mark Twain
"If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done." Wittgenstein
that 12th rating is very skewed because of the first 6 games
The D was horrid in the last 10 of 2009. Go look at the numbers.
So let's get rid of the games they played well so that the stats say what I want them to......
I think I could pick and choose a few NE games where the offense was weak and argue that NE has had a bad offense over the last decade.
If I had a dollar for every Super Bowl San Diego has won, I'd go window shopping at the dollar store.
Film matters
Once other teams got film of our new D they tore us up in 2009. We lacked the talent to continue playing well once people had a book on what we could do.
That's true
What I’m simply saying is that there is a general misconception about 2010, as if that was the worst defense in history, the the rash of injuries beginning in TC somehow had no effect, and Wink was at least decent.
The general theme appears to be that the main reason the defense was worst in the league, was because of a lack of talent. And that just isn’t the case. Injuries and an ineffective DC were contributors that shouldn’t be ignored, although many are doing just that.
My point is, that there was talent / depth added from 2009, which had been lacking for years:
Jamal Williams was at least a part-time upgrade over Ron Fields (NT)
Kevin Vickerson was far better than Kenny Peterson (RDE)
Justin Bannan was far better than Ryan McBean (LDE)
Joe Mays was a little bit more effective than Andra Davis (LILB)
Andre Goodman was more effective than the rookie Perrish Cox (CB)
The only player on defense from 2009 who was more talented than his 2010 counterpart was Doom (over Hunter.)
Contrary to popular belief, we had the horses. And the D-line was actually servicable – it was a lack of speed / talent in the LB corps where more horses were needed, at least from what I observed. The problem was, nearly half of the starters missed significant playing time, and Wink wasn’t a sound enough coordinator to be able to compensate for it. In short, we missed Mike Nolan.
"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche
"Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great." Mark Twain
"If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done." Wittgenstein
I don't know this for sure
and it’s mostly from what I read here, but Nolan was pretty prominent calling the defense those first 6 games and then McD sort of tried to do everything, no?
"It's a car wreck that's what it is" - John Lynch
"I couldn't be on defense man, Lynch be hittin' everybody man" - Rod Smith
I guess it depends what you think was more representative of the actual state of the Broncos Defense:
The first six games of 2009, or the remaining 26 games? I think this shows the problem with relying on scheme. I think the early defensive success in 2009 was a matter of Nolan’s improved scheme. But I think that makes my point that scheme will only get you so far. It is no coincidence that once the book was out on the new Broncos defense, other teams tore it up with ease. At a certain point, you just have to have the talent to match up. The Broncos didn’t have that talent to start with, and the problem only got worse.
Injuries are often given as the excuse for the terrible defense in 2010. (although that doesn’t explain why the defense faltered so precipitously in the mid and latter half of 2009) While the Broncos were hit hard in that area, I would remind people that many teams – including the world champion Packers, were hit even harder. The difference is that those other teams had the depth of talent to withstand those injuries. The Broncos didn’t. There is a reason they the Broncos got the second overall pick. I think the Broncos would do themselves no favors if they pretended the reason was because of injuries or poor scheming. The organizations problems run far deeper than that.
I understand some of the criticism about the lack of DTs taken in the draft
I also agree that quality free agents at that position are few and far between. However, I think it’s important to remember that the Broncos have glaring weak spots all over, and that they only started this years draft with six picks. They simply were not going to be able to fill all their needs.
It will take several good drafts to help this franchise recover from the incompetence of the last several years. I think we got a good start on the road to recovery over the last three days. I for one am feeling more positive about the direction the Broncos are going than I have in years.
Or
you could give the actual +1 to the comment by clicking “actions”, then “rec”.
"You're on the Island of Conclusions," said Canby.
"But how did we get here?" asked Milo.
"You jumped, of course," Canby replied.
I may be the only one
but IMO all of our DL except Jamaal Williams and possibly Bannan were playing in the wrong scheme. Marcus Thomas played in a 4-3 in college, Big Vick came from a 4-3 at Tennessee, Bannan could’ve played tackle in a 4-3 IMO, Fields was not a NT and I thought at the time how much better McBean would have been playing tackle in a 4-3 instead of end in a 3-4.
I know Bannan is gone and McBean kind of wore out his welcome to a lot of folks but I don’t see where the cupboard is completel bare if we can resign Thomas. I’m not in any way saying we are set but I do believe we are closer than what seems to be the majority opinion.
Again just my opinion but thought I’d throw it out there.
The QB position is set!
We need a mean, powerful running back
and I’m fully convinced that John Fox has one square in his sights that has already made a gentleman’s agreement to come to Denver.
27--29--11 May all your spirits rest in peace.
I can't believe some of your friends here don't think Ngata is worth is
Ngata eats up 3 guys. DOOM cannot be stopped by 1 guy. Williams is a stud. And Miller might be a beast as well. Ngata would shore up a lot of holes really quick
I think/hope they do take a long look at the possibility of adding Ngata
one of the best players in football. I can’t see the Ravens not matching whatever salary he’s offered. They’re in Superbowl win mode so it’d be a big blow to lose him.
"It's a car wreck that's what it is" - John Lynch
"I couldn't be on defense man, Lynch be hittin' everybody man" - Rod Smith
I am just thinking of all the possibilities you guys would have
with DOOM coming back, Bailey being solid at corner, and Ngata eating up offensive lines. solid play from DJ and now Von Miller. boy if you guys got Ngata you’d improve drastically
Here's what I take away from it
I agree with your points that saying a DT in this draft is an automatic day 1 starter is naive, secondly, DT typically take a few years to develop, I think that Fox and Elway have no need to start a rookie or even two rookies at DT, let along have rookies in the LB and secondary, they were looking for guys who can start soon, and I think that through FA we will be able to upgrade the defensive line most effectively this season. I am glad they didm’t reach for a perceived need, I think they understood if the guy they wanted wasn’t there, they weren’t going to make a reach for them, like McDaniels and Co, and Shanahan, they looked to add depth to this team, and understand this is a multiyear process.
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by Broncoman on Apr 30, 2011 11:06 PM MDT reply actions 2 recs
Nice post and a shinny new rec for you
I never saw this coming either. I was pretty much shocked that we skipped over Paea,
I think we’ve all thought about this a lot. How could we have been so wrong? I don’t know. But I’m not at all worried.
To me, I just chop it up to knowing I was wrong in how I saw the DTs in the early part of this draft. Figuring out why, though, seems like it’s pretty simple. At the end of the day, EFX simply didn’t like the DTs as much as we liked them.
I’m not mad and I’m not worried. Every pick used was used to fill needs. And I like all the picks. Although, McGeorge is starting to scare me a little on Franklin (jury is still out for me on that one).
Anyway, I’m not just an overly optimistic “yes-man”. I promise I’d be stomping my feet and typing loudly if I thought the draft stunk or that we need to worry about run defense. In fact, I’ll bring the pitch forks and the matches… IF…. we don’t highly prioritize DTs in free agency or through trade.
I just think it’s early for us to get out onto the ledge. No DTs in the first couple rounds surprised us all. But there are more potential FAs than ever before. I expect big money to be spent at DT. If not, then I’ll worry. If not, I’ll be pissed.
Von. Doom. Pow!
Good post, and thanks.
One thing I take from the lack of DT draft-agge… Vickerson. I can’t wait to see him this year. Nice pic to open with broseph.
A pessimist sees the difficulties in every opportunity.
An optimist sees the opportunities in every difficulty.
- Winston Churchill
First (and only, in our lifetimes) team to three consecutive SB wins!!!! ( =
by PearlJamBroncoGFunk on Apr 30, 2011 11:59 PM MDT reply actions
My only complaint is
if a team trades down, I’d rather they traded out of #2 than #36. A quality DT could’ve been taken in the middle or bottom of the first, and players such as Moore, Irving, Carter, Thomas, and Green could’ve still been drafted. Now, Marcus Thomas needs to be brought back. Maybe even Justin Bannan.
This was a case of drafting Von Miller because they thought he was a once in a decade or generation player. This is what happens when you draft BPA over need. The team will struggle in the short term, but probably benefit in the long term. By 2013, I’ll expect to see a playoff team, assuming they hit next year in the draft and keep the best coaches in town.
Nice post and rec’d.
"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche
"Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great." Mark Twain
"If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done." Wittgenstein
No one even called them on the #2 pick. You can't be mad at the team for that.
Besides, no team has EVER been able to trade out of the number 2 spot.
27--29--11 May all your spirits rest in peace.
Not mad
I’m just saying the phone works both ways.
"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche
"Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great." Mark Twain
"If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done." Wittgenstein
#5-#10 is better for trades
#1-#3 picks are set, no one will trade for them , but around the #5 pick…. thats when teams see the guy they wanted, but knew they weren’t gonna get drop. THEN they trade a boat load to move up and get him. Just as Atlanta traded up for the #6.
Exactly
That is why having the number 1-3 pick is a bit of a curse. Baring unusual circumstances, (like when the Chargers traded up to number two because they felt the had to get Ryan Leaf) most teams are unwilling to trade up into those slots. Why would they? You have to give up a number of valuable picks to move into a spot where you will have grab someone who might never pan out. Furthermore, you have to guarantee this unproven player more cash than you have to pay most other quality established veterans.
That’s a lot of potential talent, cash, and cap space you’d be giving up for what might well be no gain whatsoever. If the owners are able to get some sort of rookie pay structure is put into place in the new CBA, perhaps those high picks will become more valuable, rather than the ball in chain they currently represent to many bad teams. But right now, there is a reason it is notoriously difficult to trade out of those top picks and get anything resembling fair value.
Apparently DT is not as important of a PSN in a John Fox Defense.
by ThorpeBroncosfan on May 1, 2011 1:06 AM MDT reply actions
What's important to remember here
is 2 of the 4 spots on the DL are already decided, for the most part. The two end positions are to be filled by Doom and Ayers (at least, I would hope so).
That leaves the two spots inside that need filled. Let me just say one thing regarding the obvious disregard for those positions in the draft.
I really do feel like GMs and coaches have been talking amongst each other, and I really do feel like they have made trades that will happen as soon as the lockout is lifted for good. I honestly believe that these guys are dealing with each other privately. How else does one explain why EFX ignored a position that is stretched so thin while bolstering positions like linebacker and safety.
All I’m saying, is be patient, and relax. I can guarantee you that when the players do get to camp and preseason, there will be a couple solid starting DTs for our Broncos NOT named Unrein and Vickerson (don’t bet against Vick though).
27--29--11 May all your spirits rest in peace.
And one more thing:
the defensive tackle positions are so important, and John Fox knows that. He’s not stupid.
I can guarantee, no, I guaran-damn-tee that he’s not ignoring those spots. I would MUCH rather they find DTs in free agency that are known commodities than try and find those starters in the draft. The DT position in the 43 is SO vital to the success of that scheme. Don’t for one second think that they are acting like they’re all set there. No one on earth should be fooled by that.
27--29--11 May all your spirits rest in peace.
Anyone find it strange that Washington did not take a QB and we did not take a DT. Add to the intrigue that we took a RT and Washington needs a RT and we have another one tendered. Oh yeah, and the WAS coach was once coach here!
FIRE DE MAURICE SMITH...he can go suck dog balls for all I care!
NFLPA??? National Fools and Lame Pricks Association!
ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT WE HAVE IN TEBOW? Watching Kyle orton is like watching re-runs of the Brady Bunch...you always know whats going to happen and makes you feel sick at the end!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
You may be onto something there my Australian friend!!!!!
I’m not a huge proponent of Fat Albert, but, he would fill an immediate and GREAT need/must have!!!!
"When Tim Tebow does pushups, he's not pushing himself up, he's pushing the world down."
"Gear down there big shifter This is the "No Bull" review man…" a total Lebowski-esque one liner from Sadaraine, whether he realizes it or not - comedic gold.
Your so sneaky boydy...but I am sure that there are trades already planned just waiting for the time business can be done
oldcoachB
"The will to win, the desire to succeed, the urge to reach your full potential...
these are the keys that will unlock the door to personal excellence."
I totally think that OCB.....WAS has what we need and we have what they need....its just too convenient!
FIRE DE MAURICE SMITH...he can go suck dog balls for all I care!
NFLPA??? National Fools and Lame Pricks Association!
ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT WE HAVE IN TEBOW? Watching Kyle orton is like watching re-runs of the Brady Bunch...you always know whats going to happen and makes you feel sick at the end!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
We are gonna have a 2-6-3 def!!!
we are not gonna get ANY DT!! we are gonna field 6 lbs and….I cant even finish this ridiculous statement!
EFX wont start the season without some DT’s on the roster. What we need is to GET TO THE QB! We now have to\he tools for that. we can stop the run too, because good, quick, LB’ers are the ones who stop the run in good defenses.
At the end of this season we will be saying “EFX was wrong and we need to draft a DT in the 2012 draft,” OR “EFX was right and we didnt need an unproven DT.”
Either way, no one knows until its 2012. Lets stay positive and kick some butt this year.
GO BRONCOS!
by alkatraz76 on May 1, 2011 10:30 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Agreed on all fronts my friend!!!!!
DT is beyond a need for us, it’s a mega-must-have!!!!!!!! Alan Branch may be an option as I feel like he’s played out of scheme there in Phoenix. Thoughts on who we could target???
"When Tim Tebow does pushups, he's not pushing himself up, he's pushing the world down."
"Gear down there big shifter This is the "No Bull" review man…" a total Lebowski-esque one liner from Sadaraine, whether he realizes it or not - comedic gold.
lots of options, but few would be long-term fixes
Long-term we need to draft someone or get a top-tier FA like Mebane, etc.
But in the meantime, folks like Bannan, Thomas, Fields, Brank, Okoye, etc. are all mediocre players that could carry us through this year to “semi-mediocrity”… kinda like the “Brown-cos”, but remember that was good enough for a 13-3 season (not that I think our rookies etc. will be as good as DJ/Wilson/Gold at LB, at least immediately).
How about Vickerson?
He was re-signed to starter money on the same day Bannan and Williams were released.
I think we might be surprisingly solid with Doom/ Vickerson/ TBA/ Ayers.
I'm sure he is!
I know you’re obviously taking the piss, but I like it. Bottom line there’s just no way they come out of FA without a capable DT to play next to Big Vick. I’d like to think that Fox and Elway know a lot more than (hopefully) all of us or we’d be making big bucks in NFL FOs.
"It's a car wreck that's what it is" - John Lynch
"I couldn't be on defense man, Lynch be hittin' everybody man" - Rod Smith
I actually really like
Marcus Thomas as a 4-3 undertackle. He has a great first step for slashing in the middle.
Fields could be resigned and provide solid interior penetrator depth too (as long as we don’t expect him to handle 2 blockers).
Both were miscast as 2-gap dlinemen, but their particular skillsets (fast first step, etc.) could translate better to a 4-3 if we bring them back. These are low-tier FAs that can pretty reasonably be had even if we can’t get a Mebane or Coefield.
Bannan could come back to backup Vickerson too as the 1-tech playing the space-eater role…. so there are options for semi-mediocrity in the short-term, even if we don’t get a Ngata or Haynesworth (or Mebane or Coefield). We all knew the D was a multi-year rebuild, so I’m gonna be patient (even if I really wanted Paea at 46).
yeah, given last year's performance by these guys...
I couldn’t be confident about full-blown mediocrity ;-)
but I also don’t think they’d be horrid. Probably similar to the Brown-cos, and we went 13-3 with them….
great post!
You are exactly right everyone keeps saying that this draft was so deep at DL, we will see how many of these guys are in the league in 3 years and more importantly how many are starting on their teams this upcoming year. all these teams decided dl was so important this year leaving us with the pick of the litter at multiple positions
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