Becoming a More Educated Fan: Misinformation, Don't Start or Spread It
by Topher Doll on May 27, 2011 11:39 AM MDT
Email
PrintBecoming a More Educated Fan: Do Your Research
One of the scariest things I've seen in the world is when someones opinion is presented as fact, and due to the person's authority or respect, that opinion becomes fact, and is propagated and spread as fact, and soon it is viewed by the community as a whole as fact.
Now this may not seem like a big deal to many, which is fine, it's not really important to most. But as a person who works with groups of people who haven't got along for decades, I can say the biggest issue these people have is with how the children are given false information about the other group and because it came from respected individuals, they hold onto the belief for the rest of their lives, continuing and perpetuating the cycle.
So the main discussion point of this post is to look at misinformation and examples of how it's spread. Now this one won't be as long, but it will be important.
History, and Disinformation vs. Misinformation:
So first things first, since the invention of the internet, it has been easier and easier to to spread information in general. That trend has grown even more rapidly with social media, such as Facebook and Twitter. As these tools become a bigger part of how information is spread, and as the internet lacks true accountability for credentials and sources, it becomes easier and easier to pass of an opinion as fact, citing an unknown source.
Now this could be for a number of reason, but if breaks down into two categories, based on intent, misinformation, which is just wrong, but passed off as fact, while disinformation is intented to alter opinion, sabotage and mislead. Now throughout sports history, there have been examples of both, and since I have no contact with the authors of these examples, I will give then the benefit of the doubt, and label all these examples as misinformation, while I'm sure some are not.
I am currently studying an article written by three sociologists, that focuses on social media and the ability to perpetuate misinformation. The first thing they note is that often misinformation is spread by outlets, such as Facebook and Twitter, that aren't used by eyewitnesses, or in journals or papers that aren't read by eyewitnesses. But because of how rapidly data spreads on the internet, it's almost impossible to do damage control once the data has been circulation for some time.
It just needs to be noted that since the social media rising of the late 2000's, information has become more and more corrupt. And while the internet and tools like Twitter and Youtube have many benefits, looking to those sources for information is very risky. Now I won't delve too deeply into this, but here are a number of links that are useful if you have any further questions:
Spread of (Mis)Information in Social Networks
Distributing information — good and bad — in the social media age
Misinformation Through Social Media
Limiting the Spread of Misinformation in Social Networks
A Few Examples:
Nestle, Green Peace, and Some Nasty Candy:
Disturbing? Yea that was the point.
During the late 2000's, Green Peace launched a campaign against Nestle to get them to stop using palm oil, which Green Peace believed Nestle was getting from deforestation. Green Peace's brutal, as seen by the video, campaign against Nestle caused massive damage to Nestle's public image in just a week. Nestle quickly responded with a number of studies and audits done by independent researches on Nestle's methods. They showed Nestle got over 90% of it's palm oil from tree plantations, not from rain forest, that Nestle closely monitored their providers, and that each year, Nestle planted more tree's then it took down. Despite these facts, Green Peace continued its media barrage on Nestle till Green Peace supporters asked Green Peace to stop the campaign because of negative backlash at Green Peace for ignoring the study.
Woody Paige, Orton, and the Denver Post:
Recently on It's All Over, Fat Man, TJ stole my thunder on this topic. Woody Paige, since the season ended, has, as usual been opinionated. Now I enjoy Paige's writing, he's cocky enough to be funny, and has an enjoyable style of writing. But he also has a bad tendency to make things up or start a fire where there isn't one. Now I don't doubt that Paige has connections within the Broncos organization, moreso then me anyways, we'll let's just review the story.
Soon after the season ended, Paige wrote an article explaining how Orton was a cancer to the locker room, mocking Tebow both in TC and sulking and ignoring Tebow once he went out with injury.
Now this quickly spread around the internet, especially here at MHR. The idea that Orton wasn't a supportive teammate became reality in peoples mind. Luckily it didn't spread to the rest of the MSM, who about two days later talked to Tim Tebow about the season, and Tebow was asked about his relationship with Orton, which he mentioned as one of friendship and competition. During this interview, NFL Network showed a number of clips during the SD and Oakland games with Tebow, Orton and McCoy on the sidelines, Orton pointing to the clip board and talking to Tebow. There were a number of clips of Orton and Tebow talking on the sidelines, as well as Orton cheering during Tebow's big run against the Raiders. Later in the week, Eric Decker was tweeted about the claim and said that during training camp, no one was more respectful to each other then Tebow and Orton. I asked a friend of mine who works for the media who attended two days of Denvers camps last off-season and he reported that while it was obvious Orton and Tebow weren't best buds, they talked and laughed together, and he never saw Orton mock or laugh at Tebow, but he admits he didn't go to every day. Even in rewatching the season, the very limited sideline shots show Orton and Tebow talking.
Luckily this information was refuted quickly, but it did some big damage here on MHR, and some still hold onto this misinformation. Whether you like Orton or not, it's unacceptable to spread incorrect data.
BYU, The Denver Post (again), and Independence:
At the end of the NCAA football season, Brigham Young University, one of the staples of the Mountain West for some time, was rumored to be considering leaving the Mountain West to become independent. At this point, there was no real news, just end of the season rumors. But near the end of August, the Denver Post reported that since teams must inform the Mountain West a number of weeks in advance to leaving the conference, and it's sources, both at BYU and at the Mountain West, said no report had been filed and that a number BYU sources had reported said that BYU was looking forward to staying in the MWC for years to come.
There were a number of sources referenced in the article, at least two at BYU and one at MWC. Within a week, there were over 105 articles saying BYU wasn't leaving, including sites like SI and ESPN, in two weeks, if you searched "BYU staying MWC" you got thousands of sites, all reporting the same thing, and they all had one thing in common, the Denver Post article. Just three weeks after the Denver Post article, BYU went independent. This was a shock to just about everyone because the media had been propagating the idea that BYU wasn't leaving. The Denver Post rapidly took the original article down, but the shame had already spread. The Post issued a statement shortly thereafter saying that one of the researches of the article had lied about his sources and had been fired.
Because one man, for whatever reason, made up a story, it spread around the news and internet, and became the reality, till it was shattered. Misinformation, like what this man provided, made the Denver Post look bad, got him fired, and gave fans the belief that what they were believing was correct, though it was blatantly wrong.
Taco Bell, Lawyers, and Real Beef:
In late 2010, an Alabama-based law firm took a case out in California against Taco Bell for false advertising, claiming their "meat" was only 35% beef. The law firm started an advertising campaign against Taco Bell, and soon the information that the lawsuit was based on became public. In the following months Taco Bell lost millions of dollars worth of business, and the basis of the lawsuit actually was broadcasted as fact on the news, from Fox to MSNBC to Comedy Central.
And just this April, the law firm withdrew their case when Taco Bell presented their recipes and evidence showing their meat was actually 88% pure beef. The law firm, who launched their case loudly, withdrew quietly. Taco Bell, in response, started a large scale marketing plan to try and undo the damage that was done. They took out full page ads in the New York Times, LA Times and other major newspapers and online, that mocked those that sued them and set the facts straight:
Shooters, Vaccines, and Asking for Another Opinion:
During the tragic shooting at Fort Hood in Texas, a women claiming on Twitter to be witnessing the events began tweeting updates of what was going on. She mentioned multiple shooters, using hunting rifles, and acting in certain patterns. The media, lacking any sources and trying to keep track of the story, latched onto this women's account and used it as their primary source for updates. Even major politicians, who hadn't been contacted by the military, used what this women was saying. Shortly thereafter, as the military started releasing details, the information provided by the women on Twitter was proven to be incorrect. This action by this women cause the media to send the wrong message to the people, caused many politicians and military family members to look foolish, all, as she said, to get on TV.
The last example I will use started in 1998 as a medical study done by a British doctor showed a connection between Autism and vaccines. Within a year, parents were calling for vaccines to no longer be required for public schools, or that vaccines should just be outlawed. Due to this public groundswell, it was estimated that over a million children, who would be vaccinated, weren't. Despite a number of other studies done following the 1998 study that showed there was no connection between Autism and vaccines, due to the rising Autism rates, both in the US and globally, parents were taking action. Boycotts, marches and other actions were taken, even lawsuits against the developers of a number of vaccines. In the following years, a number of studies used the British studies numbers to prove the connection, the spread of information based on one source had begun.
Then in late 2010, the author of the original study, Andrew Wakefield, was discredited as the notes and video logs of his study became public. It turned out the study had been fixed, and the research was designed to give the desired result. Along with children being reported to have Autism on the study who didn't have Autism, money transfer between parents and the company, and just plain falsification of information, the study was disproven. But because the study had been in the public eye for over a decade, that information had permeated a generation, and that long term misinformation doesn't go away easily.
Conclusion:
I know these weren't all football related, I didn't want to use any examples of misinformation that had been started on MHR, but I hope I got the point across. purposefully starting rumors, or passing incorrect information off as fact only makes you look bad in the long run, hurts the image of those you spread misinformation about, and makes the community look uneducated and foolish. So whether intentionally or on accident, try and get multiple sources if you have a controversial statement or are challenged on it, if you can back it up, you'll only look better, it's worth the effort. So please, let's step up our game on MHR, keep the facts straight.
Next time on Becoming a More Educated Fan: Accountability, Double Standards and Fan's Honor
This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR
135 comments
|
20 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Nice work and rec'd
I can’t stand people who just make stuff up, or spread crap that isn’t true, whether it be about Tebow not wanting to practice with teammates or Orton having no work ethic, if it’s not true, don’t spread it, plain and simple.
by fiddlesticksman on May 27, 2011 12:08 PM MDT reply actions
I was wondering where all this neg on Orton came from. I haven’t been paying attention to Broncos news for like 8 months, then I hear this stuff that is pretty much the opposite that I have seen and heard of Orton for the past 2 years. I was like, “What are you smoking?” No way Orton is a locker room disruption. Tebow may have more promise, but there’s no need to slander Orton to bolster your case for Tebow starting. What Orton has done for our team is nothing short of standup.
I really enjoy your series - rec'd
Keep up the good “work”
by DE_BroncoFan on May 27, 2011 12:31 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
enjoyed the read Max, rec'd
I try to avoid looking foolish but am sure I fail at it often ;) Anyway, like I said. Good stuff here and I really enjoyed watching the Taco Bell situation work out the way it did. Damn Lawyers !! jk to any lawyers here but some of them are like greedy wall street brokers!! jk to any brokers here but some of them are like, uhm…… guess I better stop here .
Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
Thank you for the info on Taco Bell...I now have a reason to start eating there again.
I like how you presented facts of companies getting screwed over by misinformation then in the middle you bring up Orton and Tebow’s relationship and provide a few instances of when Orton and Tebow got along, while ignoring the few documented instances of Orton sulking or otherwise not being a good teammate.
Is that not in of itself “misinformation”? If memory serves me correctly, were there not instances of Orton being both a good and a bad teammate early to late last year? Why just focus on the good? To me, that would be the definition of how you described misinformation…promoting only one aspect of the overall truth in order to distort public opinion.
The truth is likely somewhere in the middle…he is neither a super teammate nor a cancer….he is just an average guy in the locker room. Besides, any intelligent reader of Woody knows he is slanted, as does anyone who reads this post. That is the nature of an opinion…it’s slanted.
The real truth is that reality is boring….
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
Well I am glad to restore your faith in Taco Bell
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Intelligent readers of Woody?
Do such people exist?
I have so many friends some I haven't even used yet
by BlobTheMagnificent on May 30, 2011 2:00 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
C'mon maan...
You made all that up ha?
No seriously…good one and rec’d..I will admit I am guilty of this and my lack of judgement occasionally gets a jump on my interp of certain things but after some time the truth or lack of it will preside and the light becomes obvious…we should all take heed here and follow the advice given!
Thnk you Maxdeem!!
A waterfall begins as one drop of water.
~Peekay
The true measure of a man is not how he sits in times of comfort but rather how he stands in times of controversy!
~MLK Jr.
by Omniscient Orange on May 27, 2011 2:04 PM MDT reply actions
Thanks for your thoughts
And I think everyone has done this before, myself included.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
I;m with Tim. It's somewhere in between
Any time you are the starting QB and your team uses a 1st round pick on a young QB, you realize that is a shot right across your bow.
I think Orton handled Tebow’s selection as a professional, but I’m 99.9999% certain Kyle did not go out of his way to be supportive or strong mentor.
In the end, just being professional is more than enough so I credit Orton for that.
Kyle doesn’t want to give up his starting spot nor does he want Tebow getting his number called in a bunch of goal to go situations. And why would Kyle. That’s money out of Orton’s pocket, it’s a hit to his pride and it’s opportunity lost.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
This isn't even about Orton or Tebow
But people are free to take what they choose from an article. I really think there isn’t a lot of real info on what Tebow’s and Orton’s relationship outside of what we see from limited sideline shots
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Dang it!
From limited sideline shots, a handful of quotes from teammates and muddled down talk from the two of them. I think that since there is so little info, any number of views on the discussion can be seen.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
It was one of your themes and I don’t want to talk about fake meat, BYU or Fort Hood. This is a Broncos site so I picked the Bronco stuff.
I don’t need to see limited info, I’ll just use common sense. Orton has more reasons to be a professional ($8.3MM) than he does to hate Tebow.
But my guess is Orton said a few bad words when McD drafted Tim and I doubt he has been overly warm to a man that is likely going to steal Kyle’s starting job in Denver.
As Ted Bartlett would say, I believe most in people protecting and serving their own self interests. Tebow’s presence on the Broncos roster is not in Orton’s best interest by a long shot. Kyle has acted accordingly.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
I guess I could have easily left that point out
And still made the point, but I guess I included it because it was a blatant misformation example that applied to something going on with the team right now. Thanks for your thoughts McG.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by Topher Doll on May 28, 2011 12:41 PM MDT up reply actions
Woody’s a weird dude and misses as much as he hits. He often reminds his readers of how he called the Phonz bust right after 2009 TC (ditto on Ayers, but he is not as vocal on that since Robert’s status is still in the balance).
I do strongly believe Woody has a source or three inside Dove Valley. But even having that will never get you the full story.
Woody takes limited facts and situations to paint a much broader picture on Orton. It’s hack journalism, but the dude writes for the DP with non-talents like Kiszla, Legwold, Armstrong and Klis. It’s not exactly the New York Times.
He is the king of the DP mountain, it’s just that this particular mountain is a small pile of ####.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
So,,,,,
you think there was a chance, small as you have declared it to be, that Orton did go out of his way to be supportive or a strong mentor?
It is this sort of baloney, backed by baloney stats and statements, that contribute to the baloney produced by the resident baloney producers. Which, after all, was the poiint of the article, was it not?
You can burst into tears all you want over it bro, but Orton is not a strong mentor or supportive of Tim as the Broncos starter. Nor should he be, nor will he be. Kyle wants to be the starting QB and has always acted in that manner.
I’m not calling foul on Kyle for that, but a fact is a fact. Kyle is serving his own self interests. I got no problem with that, but I don’t have my head so far up his butt to pretend like Kyle is Tebow’s Bronco BFF. They are rivals for the starting job and have always behaved as such. That doesn’t mean they are at each other’s neck, but Orton is not going out of his way to make Tim feel at home as the starter. Never has, never will. Somewhere McD is smiling.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
McGeorge 99.99999% certain on Orton. A leap of faith!
are u also 99.999% certain Taco Bell is not using beef. U just made the exact point
maxwelldemon is trying to make. U bought into the anti Orton campaign, wake up
and stop the misinformation!
I don’t by into anything blindly. I just use common sense. Common sense tells me Orton will do what is best for Orton.
Mentoring Tebow or being overly supportive of Tim’s spot on the roster is NOT what is best for Orton. But neither is throwing Tebow under the bus or being a prick teammate. In Orton’s usually professional manner, he played the Tebow thing right down the middle.
I respect Kyle for that. I’m glad he doesn’t mentor or fawn over Tim. Kyle is 28 for goodness sakes. He’s not some 37 year old QB on his last legs with nothing left to give. Orton wants to be a starting QB and paid like a starting QB. Can’t do that from the sideline watching Tebow steal his snaps or red zone chances.
But anyone that says Orton is fully in Tebow’s corner is full of S###. And they know it even if they are too blind to recognize it.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
Great article Max. I agree with McG on Orton though....and that is exactly the reaction he should have....
FIRE DE MAURICE SMITH...he can go suck dog balls for all I care!
NFLPA??? National Fools and Lame Pricks Association!
ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT WE HAVE IN TEBOW? Watching Kyle orton is like watching re-runs of the Brady Bunch...you always know whats going to happen and makes you feel sick at the end!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Oh I agree with McG as well
I would never suggest Tebow and Orton are friends, I just don’t see any evidence saying they won’t practice with each other or that they hate each other.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
exactly, but what is very common on this board, and particularly prevalent in the last 18 months...
If you agree with a point (like McG’s) than you are automatically a believer of the exact opposite point of view. You like Tebow means you hate Orton; you dont agree with the players, you love the owners;
There never seems to be any shades of grey. I like Orton and think he should be a starter., I just think Tebow has more upside. I side with the rank and file players, but really have utter distain for Drew Brees, Kevin Mawae and De Smith does not mean I am 100% with the owners.
A good thing to learn from your piece is that things are RARELY black and white, and there are a lot of different ways to comprehend and analyze things, and we all need to take heed of that.
Thanks Max!
FIRE DE MAURICE SMITH...he can go suck dog balls for all I care!
NFLPA??? National Fools and Lame Pricks Association!
ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT WE HAVE IN TEBOW? Watching Kyle orton is like watching re-runs of the Brady Bunch...you always know whats going to happen and makes you feel sick at the end!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
by boydy2669 on May 29, 2011 8:41 AM MDT up reply actions 5 recs
I live in the shades of grey
I almost always try and and avoid hard statements and stay out of the extremes. I’m with you that there should be an if/then statement for every belief. As a Bronco fan, I like both Tebow and Orton, though I believe we should trade Orton because the picks would help out in the long run. While I am pro-owner, I can also understand the players point of view, though, like you, I hate a number of people who represent the players. These beliefs aren’t mutually exclusive.
Thanks for your thoughts boydy.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
True, opinion is based, usually, with a mix of both
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by Topher Doll on May 29, 2011 11:14 PM MDT up reply actions
Clompy
Nice Ride Dude. Is she yours & what year if so? I miss my ‘72 Black Scout. I threw it into Granny one day and got her stuck half way up a tree in Dillon….had to abandon the ol’girl. The Scout….not Granny.
International Harvester Scout…. best off road vehicles ever built…
by KoloradoKaos on May 31, 2011 11:55 AM MDT up reply actions
you just walked away? ouch.
Those Scouts were mean, there is a real nice one rolling around town. This one isnt mine, gotta get the kids through school and I will build me an orange bronco.
Priorities
can’t live with them…can’t succeed with out them.
I still cruise the classifieds just in case there’s a deal that I just can’t pass up and might actually be able to justify.
I too am looking fwd to that day when the garage is cleaned out and there’s room to work on an off roading legend. Two tone paint might look good, blue fading into orange?! Rag top, roll bar and a lot of gas money! Sounds pretty sweet.
What year are you leaning toward?
I thought black + white = oreo
know that luck favors the prepared. - SMP
gotta Rec that one Boydy
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
Follow me on Twitter @MHR_KaptainKirk
Cutler and McD are perfect examples of black and white with a binary outcome.
For some bizarre reason, fans that sided with Cutler had to hate McD and vise versa. I was a member of team Cutler for about 3 weeks when I realized I could easily hate both of them for their poor behavior, actions and choices.
Writing, posting, yelling and discussing at MHR helped me realize that I have to measure each Bronco situation, player, season independently. More importantly, I have to be able to see the shades of grey.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
by McGeorge on May 29, 2011 1:36 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well said Boydy
I hope you get another rec to turn that comment green.
"Bombs dropping down overhead. Underground. It's instilled to want to live." -EV
Great post as always Max
I hope this isn’t a jab at my last post lol
If you reply to a comment/post/fanshot of mine, I will more likely then not respond to it, unless you come off like a d-bag.
Oh no, don't worry
I have a dashboard full of posts that I fiddle with for a while, so this has been in the works for a while.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Ok thanks
I figured it wasn’t but the timing was a little scary lol
If you reply to a comment/post/fanshot of mine, I will more likely then not respond to it, unless you come off like a d-bag.
Well said!
I have a confession…. The Ancient Mayans may not have been as high on Tebow as I may have led you all to believe.
J
Each tweet hand dipped in awesome sauce!
Twitter: @jezru
by Jezru on May 27, 2011 2:54 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
NOT TRUE, Jezru!!
I, too, ventured to the Land of the Mayan. In deciphering their glyphs, I was able to determine that they were, indeed, as high on Tebow as you stated. Of course, I think they were high on some other things as well. Just sayin’. ;-)
"It is our attitude at the beginning of a difficult task which, more than anything else, will affect its successful outcome." - William James
by FloridaFan62 on May 27, 2011 7:25 PM MDT up reply actions
Haha with the Mayans, I trust you as the authority there
So I do believe Tebow was predicted to lead us back to greatness.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Yes, max, in fact...
the greatest of all Mayan Kings, Deepak Oprah, predicted the following in glyph form:
15 = 4 SB over 8 YR in D!; which has been translated into “Tebow leads Denver to Four Superbowls over the next 8 years!”
Oh, and nice post. And I agree with you, I just can’t stand those folks who keep making up things and spreading ridiculous misinformation! :-)
"It is our attitude at the beginning of a difficult task which, more than anything else, will affect its successful outcome." - William James
by FloridaFan62 on May 28, 2011 7:21 AM MDT up reply actions
Haha now that's a glyph I like to see!
Thanks for your thoughts.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by Topher Doll on May 28, 2011 12:42 PM MDT up reply actions
Deepak Oprah!
Was indeed a wise and benevolent ruler. Even though he was easily excitable and struggled to maintain his weight.
J
Each tweet hand dipped in awesome sauce!
Twitter: @jezru
LOL!
"It is our attitude at the beginning of a difficult task which, more than anything else, will affect its successful outcome." - William James
by FloridaFan62 on May 28, 2011 11:04 PM MDT up reply actions
Yeah but the "D" was for Denmark.
Oh wait, i might have been misinformed:P
Warning: If you're reading this it has been censored.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
This is one of your better pieces max...Thanks guy...
Haven’t ate at Taco Bell since 1969 when I contracted food poisoning from them…Something about getting deathly sick will hang with you for a long long time…
Never was a Green Peace advocate either…You can’t lie to get your way, I hate that…
Ah food poisoning is a good reason to not eat someplace
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Here's one for you
2 or 3 months ago, during one of the Peyton Hillis discussions about McD getting rid of him, I made the comment that McD did it because Hillis had been hitting on Mrs. McD.
It was a joke, and I think most people took it that way, but since then I’ve seen a comment or two (here on MHR) that seems to be stating it as fact. Weird.
We're lost, but we're making good time.
Yogi Berra
Now that's a strange one
But hey, an example is an example, however crazy, thanks.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
My distaste and beef with Taco Bell
Ok, the allegations of 35% beef is not true but they overexaggerated the true meaning of Taco Bell’s beef scandel. If you were making tacos at home and used ground beef, would you add water, yeast and oats as apart of your flavorings? The dry seasonings do not need water to adhere flavor to the meat. Therefore, the lukewarm water is for the yeast. The yeast is a question mark for me. I use yeast only for baking to activate the cultures to make the bread rise. If you factor in the oats then maybe the yeast is used to inflate the oats which is a grain product like flour.
So, in your delicious so called “88% beef” taco is made up of beef and oats that have been enhanced by yeast. It’s misinformation to call if 35% beef but the reality is that Taco Bell uses oates and yeast to inflate their genuine beef taco.
uhm
the taco seasoning packet I use wants 2/3 cup of water…… just sayin
Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
the moment a person takes a court ruling to place a value on truth is tge moment theyve made a mistake
Just because Taco Bell won the lawsuit doewnt necessarily mean their product wasnt flawed. It just means they have more money to throw at lawyers to dig up information and loopholes to achieve a victory in our seriously flawed judicial system. I dont care if their beef is supposedly 88% real meat, and i dont think the ground beef we get at supermarkets comes from the greatest production process either, so thats not saying much for TBell. Its just cheap, artificial fast food. You get what you pay for and real, quality ingredients cost more, no matter if you buy them in bulk or not. The American agricultural and meat market isnt costco. Their are companies that industrialize the hell out of meat and crop production, and the negative effects of this process get covered up even more deeply than most lies today, simply because there is too much money to be made off of ignorance. Even Capitalism has its cons, and that is one of them. There is a downside to everything, because it, and we, are all seriously flawed… were all just too stubborn to accept the truth for what it is.
"It is better to be rougly right than precisely wrong." - John Maynard Keynes
"Excellence can be obtained; if you care more than others think is wise…risk more than others think is safe…dream more than others think is practical…expect more than others think is possible." - Anonymous Author
by Alexander Wall on May 28, 2011 5:28 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
This is an area
where I most definitely have my head in the sand. However, having more money does not mean they are wrong either. The firm suing Taco Bell shut up very quickly.
Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
Adding water to beef to keep it juicy and moist
Wow, that’s a first in culinary 101. If your ground beef is fresh, it’s already juicy and moist, there’s not need for water. It’s a misnomer for the non home cook type, the water is for the oats to soak up so if will expand, like you are making oatmeal at home. Imagine eating a taco that’s part beef and oatmeal…yummmy
...there's no need for water......so it will expand
Sorry for bad grammar
You really have an issue with this don't you?
Go to the store and read the packet in the mexican isle. The ingredients for the seasoning you buy has all those ingredients and you use water to cook it with for the yeast and oats which gives you that yummy taco meat sauce. I don’t know where you cook but I have worked for Wendy’s and all the way up to doing all the kitchen prep for a fancy restaurant, flour, yeast, and oats are used as filler commonly in cooking.
Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
I cook from scratch..no fillers
Maybe it’s just me but I don’t use prepared seasonings or fillers like oats and yeast. I cook using the necessary ingredients to make the intended product shine. I’m curious to know which fancy reastaurant you worked at so I’ll make sure I’m not a patron..I don’t think James Beard or MIchilin Star Rating will appprove of chefs using fillers to enhance their product.
So
You won’t use gelatin as a thickener? Meatloaf? No filler? C’mon man. Anytime you are cooking in quantity you need to have the extra water and fillers to insure quality of the product over a long term. You are not talking about cooking for your family.
Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
What is the standard of fast food?
That essentially is the issue. Do you compare 3 star Michilin restaurants and James Beard nominees to the standards of Taco Bell or McDonald’s? No, it’s fast food for a reason. You have to substitute quality for mass production. My disagreement is that Taco Bell isn’t all that and a bag of chips. Yes, the law firm was wrong but Taco Bell shouldn’t be proud to announce that their product is superior. Simply, you want great tasting food, cook it yourself.
3 star Michilin restaurants and James Beard nominees
I don’t think I even drive by places like these. Don’t know what either of them are but I do know I have quite restaurants because the customer thought they were eating at home. You wanna have it your way, go to burger king or cook it yourself. :)
Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
i dont wanna have it my way...
Unless “my way” means healthy and not loaded with preservatives and proccessed ingredients, then Yes, i do want it my way, and Burger King doesnt do it my way either. You practicially cant get unprocessed ingredients let alone an axtual cooked meal without them these days unless you shop all organic farm fresh, which costs a boatload because it isnt getting the tax breaks the industrialized food is getting. The average American’s diet these days consists of 90% proccessed meat, dairy, corn and white flour. Its almost sickening to think the only real break we get from these four staples is fresh fruit and vegetables, which most mid-low class Americans cant afford enough of on a consistent basis. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer in a technology dependent capitalist nation.
"It is better to be rougly right than precisely wrong." - John Maynard Keynes
"Excellence can be obtained; if you care more than others think is wise…risk more than others think is safe…dream more than others think is practical…expect more than others think is possible." - Anonymous Author
by Alexander Wall on May 28, 2011 5:39 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Ouch Alexander
Your views are right on. I do think you have taken a bit of a leap here to start in on food production in general.
Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
A bag of apples costs the same amount as a bag of potato chips. Kids would rather eat the latter and parents are too worn out to fight them. The poor, just like everyone else, make some really bad choices when it comes to the food they put in their bodies. They do have choices, but they also have flavor preferences.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
With your obvious bias against the rich, Alexander, I'm amazed you're a football fan...
you know with all the rich folks involved
The QB position is set!
by broncofaninIL on May 28, 2011 10:28 PM MDT up reply actions
excellent points, AW
It’s too big a topic for me to give it an adequate treatment here but it’s a very serious issue. The concept of “food desert” was developed to express this fundamental idea.
" – The food desert concept was first introduced in the United Kingdom in the early 1990’s to examine disparities in food pricing and to describe geographical areas with limited access to retail grocery stores (Ford). A food desert is a food environment unsupportive of health; it is defined by barriers which restrict access to healthy foods. Barriers may include lack of access to food retailers, availability of nutritious foods, or affordability of foods. Research has defined food deserts quantitatively or by neighborhood characteristics such as economic and social barriers. In 1996, a British Low Income Project Team defined food deserts as "areas of relative exclusion where people experience physical and economic barriers to accessing healthy foods" (Reising and Hobbiss, 2000). The exclusion refers to the shift of food retailers away from urban areas, an outcome of urban sprawl and segregation.
Food deserts are generally described areas with high poverty rates and low access to healthy food … – "
There are a few other issues related to this — one, the use of high fructose corn syrup. The problem with HFCS is related to satiety. You eat more because your brain doesn’t react to fructose in the same way as sucrose, thus your body doesn’t tell you that you are full. Sugars metabolize similarly but people eat more when HFCS is present because of the differences in ability to detect different types of sugar. HFCS is also subsidized, so it’s price doesn’t reflect the true cost. The problem with the ‘choice’ argument is that there is a worldwide epidemic of childhood obesity, including 6 month old babies. Babies of that age don’t choose, nor are they lazier than previous generations. Their bodies are merely reacting to a food source that leads them to consume more calories.
An added point is that salt and sugar ‘balance’ each other. The addition of salt causes people to drink more (of those giant and profitable pops TB and others sell), and its taste is masked by the addition of sugar. Remarkably high levels of salt and sugar are present in “processed” foods because of the tandem effect of salt and sugar. And it also covers up taste, which is extremely important for foods that are frozen because the processing leaves a poor taste that must be covered up in order to achieve sales. Fiber is also removed to allow for freezing and fiber is an extremely important component of a healthy diet.
Given the current Play60 campaign, it’s a little curious (not really though, because they’re sponsors) that the interaction of diet and activity levels aren’t part of campaign. A diet containing large amounts of junk carbs produces lethargy, which I’ve dubbed the Chinese Fast Food Effect. The resulting behavior is NOT to exercise after consumption but to engage in sedentary activities. And this leads to obesity. Just as with the detection of fructose problem, there’s a systematic effect producing obesity. There’s no true choice involved. Those who eat diets containing a high percentage of junk carbs are experiencing a sugar roller coaster ride that results in lethargy. A diet producing high energy levels would lead them to exercise because they have more energy.
A final note — actions by the ‘sugar lobby’ constitute a disinformation campaign. It could argued that they merely disagree but the science on this is fairly solid. IMO — they’re attempting to mislead people, who are not scientifically competent enough to understand the difference between the issue of metabolizing versus satiety and energy levels.
******* "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge." - Charles Darwin
If you like to research these things, Colinski,
you might be very interested in checking into the 3 studies now that have suggested (not proven) that Nutrasweet (aspartame) consumption at one can per day is a stronger prediction of future diabetes and obesity than diet type. (ie, hi or low carb, hi or low protein, etc), and by a factor of 3 if I remember rightly. The initial article was a prospective study that observed 10,000 subjects over a 10 year period. It is also another case in which the complex system which regulates what we often refer to as our metabolism is fooled, and results in adverse effects. Aspartame was also recently implicated in a British study in coronary artery disease. It is my opinion that the data on diabetes and obesity would be front page news if this was not companies like Coca Cola and Pepsi that would suffer.
artificial sweeteners
It is .. another case in which the complex system which regulates what we often refer to as our metabolism is fooled
My understanding is that the body’s system of regulating insulin and glucose is compromised over time by artificial sweeteners, which mimic the effect of sugars and thus lead to insulin production which is ineffective at controlling glucose levels, because of the absence of sugars to metabolize. This is the insulin resistance phenomenon. And you probably know that.
The particular issue that concerns me is the financial ties between public schools and soda pop manufacturers. Budget shortfalls have provided opportunities for soda pop manufacturers to approach school systems with offers of financial assistance in return for being able sell and market their products in schools. My thinking is closer to that in an experimental curriculum in Milwaukee I’ve read about, in which no sugar/sweetener products are sold or are part of the school lunches (with exceptions). It’s not as radical as it sounds and I’ve heard very good things about the results.
******* "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge." - Charles Darwin
The simplistic way to visualize the problem
is to as ask yourself this.." If this stuff can fool my taste buds into thinking is is a usable form of sugar, what other responses normally reserved for sugar does it trigger?" I have similar concerns for margarine…there may not be cholesterol or fats in it, but the molecule itself looks a lot like plastic…….just what does the body do with this molecule, and what does it trigger “by accident” that we may not yet appreciate? The answer to that it is really quite unknown.
GO COMMUNISM
No save ammunition all bullets in gun now- Bruce Campbell
Stand up straight a man looks more confident when he is erect- Taj
GO BRONCOS
I'm just going to say this
I’ve never had a thread derailed by fast food before, so this is actually a new moment for me.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Haha no it's fine
I just laughed a little, it’s not a terrible thing, just, I don’t know, it made me laugh. No worries.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
LOL! That's funny, max!
"It is our attitude at the beginning of a difficult task which, more than anything else, will affect its successful outcome." - William James
by FloridaFan62 on May 28, 2011 7:23 AM MDT up reply actions
I have. MHR has quite the decorated past when it comes to threads about fast food.
Remember the burrito thread?
The ignorant redneck formerly known as kentuckybronco.
by Troy Hufford on May 28, 2011 11:10 AM MDT up reply actions
Ah yes. KB sure did have a way with burritos. lol
The ignorant redneck formerly known as kentuckybronco.
by Troy Hufford on May 28, 2011 6:24 PM MDT up reply actions
I remember that thread
it was very entertaining. I do hope that things have gotten better and you are able to eat a better style of burrito.
I may have to do my Food Power Ratings for a while again, too
if we have football.
by Orange Rush on May 28, 2011 2:22 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!
No save ammunition all bullets in gun now- Bruce Campbell
Stand up straight a man looks more confident when he is erect- Taj
GO BRONCOS
Links or it didn't happen
:)
"Bombs dropping down overhead. Underground. It's instilled to want to live." -EV
Thank you for an excelent post.
and a special thank you for mentioning the vaccine/autism fiasco as an example. As a physician I have never seen any other topic that was believed and defended by parents with such vehemence. Jennie McCarthy got rich writing about this, and though I am sure she believed it, was a major contributing to its spread. Someday there will probably be a retroactive study looking at how much mortality and morbidity could be attributed to this flawed and discredited study., but until then I just remember the 6000 (memory being used here) cases of childhood polio that broke out when a dictator in Africa decided that the WHO vaccination program was a U.S. conspiracy….and hope for the best.
by idahobronc on May 27, 2011 7:56 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
another surprising (apparent) bit of misinformation
Jenny’s mention somehow provoked this (is it Freudian?) — Discover magazine had an issue (no centerfold) focusing on the issue of silicone implants. with a general consensus that the issue had been prematurely settled in a legal sense but lacked supporting empirical evidence.
http://discovermagazine.com/1995/dec/siliconeinthesys598
******* "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge." - Charles Darwin
Your source is accurate, Colinski
The sequence of events that relates to a result such as that max is trying to discourage is thus; ….An article in medical journal suggests a possible problem to be researched, the media picks it up and does not make clear that this is still early in the debate, then the public becomes emotionally involved. The class suit follows and is completed before the data is even fully collected, much less analyzed. Now, the defendant company faces a hard choice…1) try to delay and get more data or 2) settle relatively quickly after some maneuvering to gain some leverage in the settlement. The first choice is often viewed as the company trying to baffle with BS, so to speak..and has not been very successful. The second means that the case is, in the public’s eye, viewed has having been proven to have merit just because it was settled. IMO, the flaw in the system is allowing class-action suits to be settled before the data is collected. To add to the problem, the company usually will not pursue the research once a case is settled, so we never really find out the answer. Example…metformin (.Glucophage) was actually available in the US about 25 years before it arrived highly heralded in about 1990. But, elderly patients were noted to be occasionally dying while on it, so the med was banned after considerable public outcry. However, European systems (primarily Britain) continued to study it and then use it after finding that the drug simply cannot be used in those with poor kidney function. Used this way, British patients started living about 8 years longer than ours, and after the trend persisted, the drug was then allowed to be brought back. How many patient years did we sacrifice by not doing further study ourselves, even if it meant holding the drug back until the studies were completed? Nobody was vicious or intentionally trying to harm anyone, everybody was trying to do the right thing, but the system resulted in the research being brought to a halt. PS….the best defense against developing type 2 diabetes would still seem to be a good exercise program first, and proper diet close behind. A good exercise program sustained over the years is like a carpenter using moulding ….it covers a multitude of sins.
agree and followup to the implants issue
.the best defense against developing type 2 diabetes would still seem to be a good exercise program first, and proper diet close behind.
Strongly agree.
Here’s the follow up to the implant issue:
Following the Discover article, Dr. Kossovsky was relieved of teaching duties at the UCLA Medical School and his research lab was locked. In 1997 he resigned from his faculty position at UCLA Medical School. The Discover article was never refuted by Dr. Kossovsky, who no longer works as a medical doctor.
******* "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge." - Charles Darwin
What do you consider a good use of opinion and/or facts?
Max, you had asked for suggestions/requests for articles.
I’m curious if you would be willing to describe your take on opinions, facts, and perhaps arguments, i.e. strong versus weak arguments, etc. What do you consider a good use of opinion and/or facts? For that matter how and when do emotion or sensationalism contribute to, or take away from, a discussion (or argument)? And what about stats? If I present a stat about John Elway’s purchasing decisions regarding cufflinks over the past ten years (2001-2010), does that contribute to demonstrating the conclusion of a hypothetical argument that John Elway is one of the Denver Broncos top 17 QBs of all time?
I will not link it here from youtube.com because it contains cussing but I’m reminded of Ron White describing his participation on the High School debate team. It’s funny.
by cosBroncosFan on May 27, 2011 8:04 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Thanks for your suggestions
I will try and do that post, it would be an excellent post. You raise good points and it would make an interesting discussion topic.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Some thoughts....
I enjoyed your piece and think you picked an excellent topic. However, I am a bit concerned about a pro-corporate slant that seems to have crept into your examples.
With regard to the Nestle example: Having lived in Japan for many years, I had not even heard of the scandal, so I certainly do not pretend to know where the "truth" lies here. Still, suggesting that Nestle is innocent of charges based on "independent" studies may be premature. The studies may be independent in the sense that entities independent of Nestle conducted them. However, if they were commissioned and paid for by Nestle, they would hardly be necessarily "objective." The figures used in the study and the methodology can always be manipulated to bring out different emphasis and results, and things can be described in ways that make them sound better than they are. For an example of the latter, replanting trees sounds great. But if the original concern is the habitat of orangutans, the reality may be less than great. Replanted forests are not habitable by orangutans NOW, and often never return to the full biologically diverse ecosystems they originally were – meaning that they may never again be habitable by orangutans. They may also be more easily exploited by human populations searching for expanded planting grounds. The plantations themselves were once rain forests, so what does that mean? And 10% of rain forests could represent a significant threat to orangutan habitats.
I DON’T KNOW that any of the above to be true, but I also don’t know that it isn’t – and it certainly could be. But that’s the point – even after reading the results of the study, I’m not sure any of us are in a position to draw any conclusions. Again, I don’t know any of the background on this, so I may be way off…….
In this sense, I also liked your vaccine-autism example. The pharmaceutical industry is rife with such problems, where real "independent" studies are in fact rare and typically show results significantly more disadvantageous to the drug industry than studies funded by the companies themselves. But the drugs we are proscribed are typically approved, marketed and sold on the basis of studies funded by drug companies. Even the ethics bodies that oversee studies are funded by the drug industry and interested companies!!! No wonder the medical system, and drugs in particular, are such a problem in the US.
Having passed the NY Bar, I think I can say the huge number of hungry attorneys in the US and the legal system in general is making this problem significantly worse, not better. Wakefield, the doctor who conducted the study that caused the uproar, failed to disclose a conflict of interest regarding his study – he was paid US$800,000 by attorneys to conduct the study, attorneys who were suing vaccine-related companies on behalf of parents with autistic children!!! Another potential difficulty with "independent" studies.
On your Taco Bell example: The gods know I LOVE myself some TB tacos when I’m in town. But even with the much more specific refutation provided by TB, I am not fully convinced. Again, what are they measuring and how? If you weigh the ingredients BEFORE preparation, you may very well have 88% meat. However, soak some (initially light-weight) oats in water for awhile, then cook, and your end product could very well be 50% non-meat by VOLUME when served. I don’t KNOW that this is true, but again, I don’t know that it isn’t and it isn’t improbable. Does it mean don’t eat tacos from TB? Hell no – chose for yourself! But I like the idea that someone is checking.
As to Greenpeace: I agree that some of their tactics have been less than admirable. But let’s consider that they are up against the largest corporations in the world from every country in the world, in an age when we are depleting the planet’s resources more in a single generation than had occurred throughout the entire history of mankind to date, not to mention the exponentially escalating damage to the environment that may soon reach a tipping point after which the planet may become uninhabitable. And the average person is inundated with requests for support for all of the victims in the world and all the disasters, diseases, cruelty to animals, election of politicians, not to mention deadlock in football and the upcoming season of Dexter, etc., etc. How do you get through to a public that is suffering from sensory overload?? Unfortunately, as the saying goes, sometimes when you fight the devil, you end up becoming the devil, (sorry to say, but it’s a little like the war on terror).
The unfortunate "truth" of the matter, in my opinion, is that there is too much going on for any of us to really check into what is being said – and too few are learning the real critical skills necessary for reading into glib summaries of studies and reports. And as you so very rightly point out, the internet and like technologies will only exacerbate this tendency. But to get back to my original thought, I am certainly loathe to trust the word of corporations – for whom the line between advertisement and blatant lying has essentially disappeared and who need to convince you of the desirability/necessity of coke, cigarettes (older example, I know), Prozac and the newest clothing fashions – particularly when the battle is for the survival of the diversity of animal species, one of which is called homo sapiens sapiens. (Where is that "sapiens" (meaning "wise" or "knowing") when we need it the most?)
Just my 2 yens’ worth – and sorry for the preachy tone….
by dwinjapan on May 27, 2011 9:13 PM MDT reply actions 2 recs
greenpeace is like PETA....nobody cares
STATED AS FACT
POP POP!!!
by Tollyvolley127 on May 27, 2011 11:21 PM MDT up reply actions
More people should...
Go some of the places in the world I have (and that’s a lot) and you’ll see the exploitation of the planet and animals often enough to make oneself somewhat passionate in the same way they are.
And spare me this fact crap…
"Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space."
"It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potatoes" Douglas Adams
by orange&blue_aussie on May 28, 2011 8:31 AM MDT up reply actions
Ah sorry man... didn't sound like a joke. My bad
"Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space."
"It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potatoes" Douglas Adams
by orange&blue_aussie on May 28, 2011 6:46 PM MDT up reply actions
I'm very anti-big bussiness in my political and ecomonical leanings
So it is strange people found a bias there coming from me. But thanks for your thoughts.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by Topher Doll on May 28, 2011 12:44 PM MDT up reply actions
the selection of examples was probably random
and with a small sample base, it’s easy for an apparent “trend” to slip in – doesn’t necessarily mean anything regarding your political views. I did think that you seemed to accept the position of the two companies in question a little too easily, though, although I grant you the positions did seem solid at first glance. And it’s the overall tendency of corporations to play with studies and statistics that I find particularly disturbing, hence the post. There was no intention to be judgmental, particularly with regard to your political and economic views!
about this subject, MD
My area of interest, which I informally research, is agnotology.
It’s hard to broach this subject without mentioning a great number of corporate sponsored disinformation efforts. So, the question of balance is pertinent, but I applaud your willingness to take on both ‘sides.’ However, the problem is false equivalency. I won’t attach this issue to ideology but those who have the money and the interests to protect are predominately the ones who are engaged in misinformation/disinformation practices. Note: I use the term disinformation when there appears to be intent. Urban legends are a different issue although not unrelated.
Microsoft’s Fear, Uncertainty and Destroy campaign
Engineering of Consent (Lippman, Almond thesis)
Understanding the Global Warming Disinformation Campaign (and no, climatology is not disinformation)
Discovery Institute and the wedge strategy(evolution)
Tobacco disinformation campaign
There’s much more but I’ll stop at this point.
******* "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge." - Charles Darwin
Thanks for your research here
There is a huge difference between disinformation and misinformation, as you suggested, but for the sake of this post, I felt each case should receive the benefit of the doubt.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
attibuting intent
I use a ‘fair jury’ standard, which attempts to determine if a reasonable person in possession of the facts would agree with a proposition. My intent is to always uphold a high standard regarding objective truth. Issues that fall into the ‘eye of the beholder’ category cannot be resolved and would not fall under the disinformation classification, although intentional deception in support of a cause is still recognized for what it is.
Some issues become embroiled in political controversy. And the point of those who spread disinformation is to cloud the issue in irrelevant controversy. I don’t ignore these issues for precisely that reason since it’s tantamount to giving in to the disinformation. Although there’s still no attempt to ‘take sides’ on ‘valuative’ positions, there’s a high behavioral standard involved. Participants involved in an issue are expected to be seeking objective resolution and acting in good faith.
The point is to avoid falling into a relativistic morass in which everyone is allowed their own truth. And I say that as someone who’s written here at MHR on multi-valent logic, which doesn’t support a single or unified notion of truth, so I’m not speaking of ‘THE’ truth but of something more mundane.
Regarding football; the one issue that falls into the possible disinformation category is the Cutler story and related criticism of McDaniels based on it. There was a clear indication of disinformation being produced by Cook.
******* "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge." - Charles Darwin
amazing post, dwinjapan
I won’t try to say much here but the problem is that the sources debunking these (often purported) legends are often themselves in need of debunking. In fact, one of the most common disinformation techniques is to proclaim one’s self/organization as intent on debunking, thus posturing as a debunker while spreading disinformation.
The style of presentation that disinformationists use can reveal their intent. They sometimes go heavy on rhetoric, thus revealing that their intent is not to explain but persuade, but other times they assiduously copy the style of scientific papers in order to masquerade as something they’re not. The biggest problem is front groups, and there’s many of those.
******* "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge." - Charles Darwin
Thanks, Colinski
Of all the posts that appear on this site, I always read yours with the greatest interest and attention, and am invariably rewarded for my efforts. Given the centrality of the position I was taking – that the purported good guys of the original post (Nestle and Taco Bell) may very well merely appear to be good guys as a result of their use of more professional/successful disinformation!!! – I thought my post would garner more attention. (But this is a football site, after all.) It’s scary to think that virtually no one will be able to get behind the multiple layers of disinformation and that in the end, most will give up and vote according to the soundbites that sound best. Anyway, thanks for your comment.
an example
I found one of the more remarkable examples of disinformation recently, but others can judge.
Memos from the tobacco industry show planning of an organized campaign to changes laws regarding liability. Apparently, a major impetus behind tort reform was a consortium of tobacco producers.
http://tobaccodocuments.org/state_strategies/1010.html
People are entitled to their beliefs regarding the ability of plaintiffs to seek redress in court when they’ve been harmed by the actions of another but the problem is when disinformation is produced to achieve that goal.
I had always assumed that insurance companies were behind the tort reform movement that appeared in the 90s, along with ideologically predisposed political elements, but I was unaware or don’t recall hearing of the tobacco industry’s involvement.
From an agnotological standpoint, it’s a concern that disinformation was produced stating that jury awards were rising when awards were in fact going down. There’s still reason to look into tort reform. The silicone implant story which I link to in a post above demonstrates this. However, it’s a concern when disinformation is used in the political process to induce changes in the legal system in order to favor one side over the other. And it’s not only electoral politics. The Court’s recent decision on class action suits seem part of a consistent recent pattern of favoring corporate interests over citizens.
******* "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge." - Charles Darwin
Getting back to football,
Professionalism means putting aside your personal emotions in order to perform your job the best way you can. I have always thought of Orton as the consummate professional – never a complainer or bad-mouther, playing through pain, etc., etc. And remember, folks, he’s been through this kind of controversy before in Chicago.
Who cares if he loves Tebow or even likes him? I believe that Orton always does his best to maintain a positive locker room atmostphere and to help even his arch-rival Tebow develop into a pro QB. I just think he is that kind of guy based on what I’ve read of him over the last few years.
But who knows?
Really great post
And I agree with it in more ways than I can say. I call it the echo chamber. A good example that I can’t prove is what’s happened to DJ Williams. A lot of people think he sucks because of the echo chamber, IMO.
Moving on, I wasn’t very agreeable with the Tebow/Orton example. I can’t name a single person in better position to have the pulse of the Broncos than Woody Paige. And I don’t have to like him to say that. He probably has more insight and more relationships in Dove Valley than any other media man country wide. When he talks about an unspoken “vibe”, I think we’d be wise to give him the benefit of doubt. More importantly, though, is that I think this particular “rumor” really took hold because it just makes sense.
From a common sense level, I think most of us are pretty sure that Kyle doesn’t have young Timmy’s poster on his wall. Orton has acted professional. The fact that people who go to TC don’t see Orton overtly giving disgusted faces at Tebow or pointing and laughing at him means nothing. The fact that Orton has been pictured with Tebow during a game also means exactly nothing (haven’t you been seen with a co-worker you don’t like? Helping him even?).
Orton is a professional. But I’ve never heard them call eachother friends. They don’t even prop eachother up much in the media. I mean they’ll say the required line about how good somebody is or how hard he works… but have you ever seen a smile? Or genuine affection of any kind? Ever heard one of them go out of their way to bring up the other guy? I haven’t. They’re not homies, IMO. Not because of something Woody said, but because it passes the common sense test.
Von. Doom. Pow!
Kind of does
Quarterback is the one position on the field where two guys on the same team at the position aren’t ever really going to work together (other than kickers/punters). It’s just straight up competition.
I disagree. pretty general statement there saying they aren't EVER gong to work together.
It comes down to individuals, the circumstances and coaching among other variables IMHO
The QB position is set!
by broncofaninIL on May 28, 2011 10:31 PM MDT up reply actions
Your absolutely right Rodney and doubt very seriously if they're palsy-walsy...
I’m pretty sure the Denver Broncos have a thing or two to say how two of their players act on and off the field even if they aren’t really ‘friends’…
by bfree2bronc on May 28, 2011 10:45 PM MDT up reply actions
Thanks for your thoughts
I do think you are missing a few key points I made during my post.
I can’t name a single person in better position to have the pulse of the Broncos than Woody Paige. And I don’t have to like him to say that. He probably has more insight and more relationships in Dove Valley than any other media man country wide. When he talks about an unspoken "vibe", I think we’d be wise to give him the benefit of doubt.I have nothing against Paige, I enjoy his writing style, I said as much in the post, so this isn’t something against him. As for his relationship with the Broncos, I also talked about that in the post as well, I don’t doubt he has connections, I believe I mentioned that as well. What I don’t agree with is his “vibe” knowledge when it goes against logic and proven evidence. I, or I don’t think anyone for that matter, said Orton and Tebow were buddies, I actually said nothing like that in the post. I, along with evidence, show that Tebow and Orton don’t hate each other, that they talk and work together. So I completely agree with your last two paragraphs, that was exactly what I was trying to say.
I think you may have just skimmed that section and jumped down to comment, which is fine, but what you said is almost exactly what I said, and all the issues you brought up, I discussed in the post. I wasn’t saying Tebow and Orton were close, I was showing how Paige, who said Orton was bad for the locker room, or that he mocked Tebow, was proven wrong.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by Topher Doll on May 28, 2011 11:40 PM MDT up reply actions
Nope, Max
I didn’t “skim” your piece. I like your sh*t more than that -)
Some of what I say isn’t necessarily to disagree or agree, just to give opinion, So yeah, you probably implied or said some of what I wrote – I never meant to imply you didn’t. Sometimes I just talk to talk -) Our only disagreement, I think, is on “the vibe”.
I think even if my IQ is 80… even if I’m fat, slow and stupid…. ugly and I stutter… If I’m an assistant to the gym teacher, and I’m always around the girls in PE, I’m going to have a good idea of what boys they like and which ones are sluts. Bad analogy? lol Anyway, Woody is there. I’m not even saying you don’t like him, never meant to imply it. Just meant that I see it differently.
Von. Doom. Pow!
That fine
Thanks for your thoughts again Rodney.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Paige
Here’s the thing – Journalists are often told things off the record, things they need to keep under their hat but can use to inform their other reporting. Or they witness things that they can’t report on directly. I think Paige is getting a bum rap here. Paige’s contention might not be supported by the footage we see, but he’s also a journalist that has a lot of inside sources that we do not have. And yet somehow this has turned into an opinion represented as fact that Paige has a “bad tendency to make things up”.
If it happened one or two times
I wouldn’t use Paige and the DP as examples, but it’s a habit with them, not a one time thing.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Taco Bell controversy
I was only aware of the TB controversy from the one segment from The Colbert Report:
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/372475/january-27-2011/gordita-supreme-court
I like Taco Bell food alot but I cannot eat it without my digestion flipping out an hour or two later. Further, I disapprove of the TB menu items which seem less like the acceptable food items I remember from TB years ago — filling a tortilla half full with potatos or fritos and the rest with normal filling isn’t appetizing and fits a characterization of ‘cheapest, least healthy food possible’ to me. The non-chain mexican and south-west cuisine restaurants in town, e.g. the carnitas plate at Monica’s Taco Shop here in the Springs, are all much better choices than the Bell.
I’d point out that the controversies described rarely say much about their source data – they don’t necessarily want to say how they came up with their implied or explicit assertions of ‘35% is beef’, ‘88% is beef’, the ‘10%’ trees are from deforestation, or ‘all trees used are part of destroying rain forests.’ Usually because it’s not nearly as sensational or emotion-charged as the conclusions or good/bad PR the sides intend for the audience.
Hey guys I heard from some guy down on the street corner that Tim Tebow played football for the Broncos
you didn’t hear it from me though!
on a serious note, I liked the post. I especially liked the Green Peace one.
know that luck favors the prepared. - SMP
Another example that just surfaced today
According to a fake social media account, Rams WR Gilyard requested a traded. Pro Football Talk found the account and started spreading the news around the internet, reaching a number of major sites. According to both the agent and the player, neither has requested a trade and the account was so terribly written, I’m shocked at how quickly major sports news sites will jump on new info, even if it’s obvious it’s fake. Link.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
we live in this weird information age
where for some reason we care more about who gets us the information first rather than who gets us the correct information. one of the reasons I sit on stories for a while before I go forming opinions about them. just causes so much trouble.
also, I don’t know if anyone here follows soccer (futbol?), but there was a story about Cristiano Ronaldo giving a fan his game jersey after Ronaldo broke this dude’s nose with a ball kicked out of bounds. The stories were all about how awesome he was to give his game jersey. Within 48 hours someone had reviewed the video of it and Rondaldo was given a different jersey to give the guy because he isn’t allowed to give his game jersey. Suddenly Ronaldo went from saint to demon because the news outlets didn’t pay close enough attention to their story.
I really loved this fanpost. I just want to say it again lol
know that luck favors the prepared. - SMP
Thanks for the example
I hadn’t heard that story, it’s sad there are so many examples out there of this.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by Topher Doll on May 30, 2011 12:36 AM MDT up reply actions
Im hungry for Taco Bell now :)
No save ammunition all bullets in gun now- Bruce Campbell
Stand up straight a man looks more confident when he is erect- Taj
GO BRONCOS
I dont get how the link thing works
No save ammunition all bullets in gun now- Bruce Campbell
Stand up straight a man looks more confident when he is erect- Taj
GO BRONCOS
Let's get real on this Tebow vs. Orton thing!
Who cares! I could care less if they are best budz or mortal enemies! There is only one starting job for their position on any team, and If Kyle isn’t trying to help Tim get better (which makes perfect sense to me) then Who Cares. We have a coaching staff for those responsibilities, and I really wouldn’t want my QB who is on the way out to be messing with the QB who is coming in!
There is certainly a reason that the previous starter is loosing his job, so… why would we even want him to “mentor” the new guy! I don’t think that Tim can learn a single thing from Kyle that he can’t get from the coaching staff’s input. This kind of circulation of garbage just shows how bored to tears we all are with the way that this off season is going!
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jun 3, 2011 1:21 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
By the way, loved the article and the points you are making!
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
I had a different take
I was curious, why were there 125 comments to this post? So, I finally poked my head in.
If I got it right, the internet and social media help spread misinformation. AND, the same media is used to correct misinformation, true? Isn’t this post an example of anti-misinformation, and isn’t it also using the same media?
Faster spreading media works both ways, it’s faster at spreading both good and bad information.
And, at least it’s out there where it can be seen. If you lived in a small town, and people gossiped over the backyard fence, you didn’t know about it, it was never challenged, and it could destroy people without them ever knowing about it or without a way to stop it.
There will always be misinformation because humans are imperfect and there’s a lot of uncertainty. What is “true” today is often found to be incorrect years later, yet everyone did their best to speak the truth. 20 years ago, the truth was, eating fat made you fat. Now we are learning, that simple carbohydrates screw with glucose levels and metabolism rates. It took 20 years of people getting fatter and fatter to realize our truth wasn’t working.
Faster, more open, media is a good thing, for all.
most of his examples didn't work out all that well
and the spreading of misinformation is not a good thing for all. the word “misinformation” is another way of saying lying, when is lying a good thing? the “misinformation” isn’t analysis made off of concrete facts, but assumptions made off of hunches. that is just bad journalism and should not be accepted just because it will be figured out in 20 years.
know that luck favors the prepared. - SMP
by pats4life on Jun 7, 2011 10:45 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Whoa, whoa
Equating misinformation with lying is a stretch. Lying suggests an agenda, or a purposeful attempt to mislead. I think it goes without saying that lying isn’t a particularly good thing. Perhaps it’s accurate to say that all lies contain misinformation, but not all misinformation equates to lying.
Sports isn’t like math. There aren’t very many concrete facts. In fact, the concrete facts in sports usually have everything to do with math. A QB threw for this many yards, with this many attempts, and had this kind of success ratio. Those sorts of things could be considered “concrete facts.”
Everything is all about interpretation. That’s why analysis is so critical. BUT, is wrong analysis misinformation? Or even worse, is it lying? Or is it simply different people, with different opinions, trying to do their very best to mold the “facts” to fit their argument? If this equates to “misinformation”, well, then the world of sports analysis is full of it. Everyone does it.
I agree, lying is no good. But misinformation is sometimes the result of simply not being able to predict the future and doing your damndest to explain things that you don’t have concrete facts for. That’s just sports.
GB2
Tulogit to quit.
I wouldn't equate spreading misinformation as "that's just sports"
I’d equate it to an ego trip. they just want to make themselves look smart if they just happen to be right. just think of the things circulating around Lebron James. the concrete facts say that he is not playing well. watching him play, he is performing bad. looking at the stats, he is performing bad.
but then you get the silly analysis of people saying Lebron “can’t rise to the moment” or that he is “taking plays off” or even some that say he is “just too worn down”. Any one of those can be right, but we do not know for a fact if any of them are, and spreading them just causes problems. The only person that knows for sure what is wrong with Lebron is Lebron. Maybe those he confides with know too, like Wade or their coach.
Would I say that destroying a guys legacy because of an agenda with no concrete facts is “just sports”? I think that is a little unfair. Our perceptions are often more important than concrete facts. And I obviously know that without this attempt at predicting the future about every single sports writer on the planet would have to find something else to do. So, I guess I was just giving a different perspective.
know that luck favors the prepared. - SMP
I think your point about LeBron James is a great one
If there is an opinion to be had about this guy, somebody out there has it and is willing to talk about it. I personally don’t mind all the opinions about the LeBron James because they are just that, opinion. I don’t think they can really affect his legacy. LeBron will create his own legacy and, like Michael Jordan or Magic Johnson, it will be interpreted differently by sports fans for years.
I agree with you that our perceptions are more important than concrete facts. I don’t think that fact is particularly terrible because facts are based in the past, and perceptions often expect from the future. Take the Rockies for example. Three of it’s stars are slumping big time. Facts say they are playing at an average, or maybe even below average level. My perception of them, however, is that they are still some of the best players in the league. LeBron is the same way. Facts show that he is struggling right now. Facts suggest that he struggles in Championships. I still think that he is one of the best basketball players to play the game since Jordan though.
GB2
Tulogit to quit.
Just a note
There is disinformation, which is purposefully spreading wrong information, that is lying. Misinformation, by it’s definition is innocent. So misinformation can become disinformation (lying) if intent is proven.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
thanks for clarifying
so I guess we have to uncover the intent of the spreader of the misinformer….too much work haha
know that luck favors the prepared. - SMP
I think my head is spinning! :-P
"It is our attitude at the beginning of a difficult task which, more than anything else, will affect its successful outcome." - William James
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Mile High Report
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
Getting Social With MHR
Web Stuff
In Association With
Shutdown Corner - NFL - Yahoo! Sports
- Things to know about NFL men who served in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam
- How Kyle Orton almost cost the Colts Andrew Luck
- Detroit Lions DT Nick Fairley arrested again; now has more NFL arrests than NFL sacks
- Former high-school star Brian Banks does serious time on trumped-up charge, now hopes for an NFL shot
- Former ‘idiot kicker’ Mike Vanderjagt in trouble after accosting junior-high heckler
