SB Nation Denver Editor's Pick
God given gifts and the worst case scenario
by McGeorge on May 8, 2011 3:30 PM MDT
Email
PrintThese are the dog days and while this topic isn’t my favorite to discuss, the QB chat keeps popping up. So let's settle it… Orton, Tebow and Quinn. Let me reorder that, Tebow, Brady Quinn and Orton.
Look, I’m not a football coach, but the sport isn’t rocket science, medicine or actuarial mathematics. It’s just football. John Clayton is a professor of football and his PHD plus a dollar will buy him a double cheeseburger at McDonalds. Although Clayton probably prefers a steady diet of field mice and tootsie pops. So while I’m not a professor of The NFL like Clayton, I can reason via common sense, logic and my sense of sight.
I was leaning heavily towards pessimistic when Brian Xanders (haha) traded away three high to mid round draft picks to select Tim Tebow. But I did what most of us do and watched Tim in the preseason and later in the regular season trying to confirm or change my initial views. It didn’t take long for me to figure this one out. I remember vividly, it was during a preseason game vs Minnesota, as I watched Tim make play after play. I picked up the phone and excitedly called my father to rejoice. It was beyond obvious to me that NFL success was within Tebow’s grasp.
Denying the truth is unhealthy and unproductive. Tebow was a mega star and extraordinarily productive at the college level (the SEC no less). Tim has always moved the chains, scored points (Most TDs in college football history, Tim had 11 TDs in barely more than 3 games worth of action and Denver scored 23 or more points in all three of his starts), he inspires the defense (see the 3rd and 4th quarters of the Texans game – I still have that one on my DVR), he fires up the crowd (see Texans and San Diego game or just ask a damn Florida Gator fan about Tim).
So why are we supposed to be down on Tim and what are his tragic flaws? His footwork, his progressions, reading defenses, his release, his inexperience? Okay. But Tim is 23 years old and here is where the logic starts to kick in… Doesn’t Tim have plenty of time to work on his drop back footwork, his reads, his ability to decipher defenses, even the mechanics of his throwing motion? BTW, his release, which seems to be everyone’s biggest gripe, is a little slow and ugly. But we’re talking split seconds longer than a typical NFL delivery. It’s not a big deal at all if he never fixes that. You want to worry about something real, worry about Tebow’s running since we don’t want to see him take off 10 times a game because that is 160 hits a season and that is about 100 too many for Bronco blood. But the things that Tim needs to correct or improve upon are ALL issues that can be addressed with practice, attention to detail, film study, experience and hard work.
You sports science guys as well as the enteral optimists will have a hissy fit, but I know certain things are impossible. We humans have certain athletic limitations that we can’t overcome, even with all the training or desire the best of us can muster. As Warren Sapp would say "you’re either born with that or you’re not". I’ll make up an example. Say Moreno runs a 4.55 40 (I pulled that out of thin air so don’t tell me my facts are wrong). He wants to get faster so he spends his entire offseason training on speed. He will probably be able to shave a few hundredths of a second off that time, but he’ll NEVER EVER EVER be a 4.3 guy. He can only get so fast and there is a ceiling to his top end speed. Unfortunately for us Bronco fans, that ceiling is pretty low. Moreno wasn’t born that fast and he can’t train himself to be Chris Johnson fast. Same thing with Orton and many of his shortcomings. I like Orton. He’s a good solder.. Scratch that, he’s a great soldier, he’s tough, he maximizes his limited talents, he rarely takes unnecessary risks, plays hard and is quietly professional in an era where several other NFL QBs "what to be icons and entertainers" or just douche bags like Jay Cutler. I feel like a lesser man when I bash Kyle. It’s like cussing. It’s a release valve, but it’s also the way we communicate when we can’t come up with something intelligent or meaningful to say. So Kyle, I apologize when I say mean things about you. You’re not getting the best of McGeorge, you’re getting my worst.
But God gave Tim Tebow certain athletic abilities that Orton will never have, no matter how much Kyle wants it or trains. Tim has a stronger arm, can harness greater velocity, Tim is faster and physically stronger, Tim is quicker, Tim is less injury prone because he can avoid or withstand bigger hits. Tim is also better looking. Life isn’t fair, but Orton will make $8.5MM next season, he married a nice gal and he’s a good egg so let’s not feeling sorry for him. We’re just acknowledging some truths. Elway and Fox likely see the same things which is why we didn’t draft a QB, why Tebow will be our QB in 2011 and why Orton will be playing somewhere else.
I’ll go a step further. Tim has a higher ceiling than most young NFL QBs because his flaws are almost exclusively flaws that can be fixed (not just marginally improved upon). Tim needs to learn how to draw a D-lineman offside, improve upon ball fakes, pumps and play action, he needs to get to the line of scrimmage quickly, look at the D and see where blitzers are coming from or where the passing lanes might open. Tim needs to cut down on Ints and improve his accuracy. Guys, that’s great for us because those are flaws that can be fixed with experience and practice. And that is exactly why we need to trade Orton, so he’s not potentially stealing Tim’s reps that Tebow will require to make the leap from good prospect to star NFL QB. It will require patience (not my specialty) but we’re going to be bad in 2011 with Orton or Tim under center. For the first time since the early 1980s, we head into a football season as a true bottom up rebuilding team with no playoff expectations. Common sense time again. THIS is the year your insert a young QB, take your lumps and prepare for something bigger down the road. This is NOT the season you play a never will be Super Bowl caliber QB that wins you one or two more games so you can say you went 6-10 instead of 4-12 way back in 2011.
And for that last question - would I rather see Brady Quinn in 2011 if Tebow gets hurt or busts? Hell yes I would. We CAN trade Orton this off-season for a good draft pick or two in 2012. I’m not big on Brady Quinn (unlike Tebow, Brady played like garbage much of last preseason), but Brady is young and has several physical tools to be a good NFL QB. If Quinn were to play in 2011 and play well, we’d have another valuable trading chip along with that 2nd rounder we got for trading Orton. Yes please.
Or maybe (and more likely) Quinn struggles and we lose a bunch of games in 2011. The worst case scenario is NOT that we’re picking very high again in 2012 and have to draft Luck, Matt Barkley or Landry Jones. The worst case scenario is that Tebow gets hurt or plays poorly and Orton comes in to will Denver to a 6-10 record and the 9th pick (which is too low to draft the potential franchise QBs that will go in the top 5 of the 2012 draft). Awesome, now we’re stuck drafting a CB or DE we hope develops into an impact player instead of Dealtha O’Neil or Dan Williams. Or even worse, we do what Minnesota and Tennessee just did and draft a 3rd round QB talent with our 9th overall pick. Since Orton is an UFA, do we resign him as a stop gap until Terrell Prior or Kellen Moore is ready to play? Is this how Super Bowl champions are built?
I’d rather build around Tebow. If that doesn’t work, give me Luck or Barkley next year. That leaves us with the obvious. Just trade Orton. It’s such a no-brainer if you can get a good draft pick for him. Build for a real future, don’t pull a Jacksonville or Houston and get stuck in 7-9 to 9-7ville.
2011 is Tebow’s year and his alone. I’m very very very comfortable with not having a quality backup to push Tebow because Tim DOESN’T need that. He’s got more than enough motivational fuel as it is. And let’s be fair to Orton. He is in his prime and deserves a shot on a team that isn’t at the ground floor of a rebuilding project like Denver finds itself today. Or just trade him to Arizona, at least he'll get to start.
This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR
472 comments
|
62 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Check, yes, and check
This is one of the areas you and I have always been in agreement on, McGeorge. My signature has stayed the same pretty much since we drafted Tebow.
Bring on Superman.
Merely having an open mind is nothing: the object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid. -- G. K. Chesterton
Orton in 2010, Tebow in 2011, Super Bowl in 2012! Then the world ends, so who gives a frack what happens next.
by Sharpe as a Tack on May 8, 2011 5:04 PM MDT reply actions
Yep...been saying the same thing since week 6 last year....imagine how much further along we would be with Tebow having started 10 games instead of 3...
Great post McG. Tebow wont get developed sitting on the bench…not how he rolls nor is it good for our team.
ITS TEBOW TIME!
FIRE DE MAURICE SMITH...he can go suck dog balls for all I care!
NFLPA??? National Fools and Lame Pricks Association!
ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT WE HAVE IN TEBOW? Watching Kyle orton is like watching re-runs of the Brady Bunch...you always know whats going to happen and makes you feel sick at the end!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Well said ...troublemaker !
Just kidding..totally agree with all points. I only have one small lingering point of contention that nags at me though, and I will concede it’s probably more a biproduct of my natural optimism than anything particularly tangible. For some reason I just have this feeling that if Fox can get the D to play even close to the levels of his average Panther teams and Tebow simply does what he does and puts points on the board. We may not be as bad as most people think we’ll be this year… well, if there is a this year anyway.
Nice perspective on Orton too BTW, I think he’s getting a lot of our worsts. It’s just a tough spot for him to be in and i hope he gets traded to a team that is just a solid game manager away from contention.
"as in football so in life"
I agree Asin....average D and we can improve...Tebow will keep growing in his role with every game.
FIRE DE MAURICE SMITH...he can go suck dog balls for all I care!
NFLPA??? National Fools and Lame Pricks Association!
ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT WE HAVE IN TEBOW? Watching Kyle orton is like watching re-runs of the Brady Bunch...you always know whats going to happen and makes you feel sick at the end!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Great post, McG....
I couldn’t agree more. Orton seems like a swell guy and Quinn certainly looks the part, but Tebow is simply a superior athelete who needs to be on the field to show what he’s got.
And, I agree with asinion…..With some actual defensive coaching and a little luck (hey, they’re due at soime point, right?), our boys just might surprise a few folks and pull off a decent season…..I for one will never bet against Timmy and the Duke…
by blackhillsbronx on May 8, 2011 5:40 PM MDT via mobile reply actions
Arrowhead Pride Sinks to new low .
There story that is on the main page Is a name this caption sluring Elway mostly.
Sorry MC George to put this here . But i didnt know any other way to get the message
acrost . This is a slow news time so they decided to fill in the time doing crap like this .
by broncosfaninphilly on May 8, 2011 6:00 PM MDT reply actions
Dude, I am still banned from there for calling Haley a pussy...have not unbanned me even though Joel said he would...like 8 months ago....yeah, kinda lame but whatever....we will beat them this year!
FIRE DE MAURICE SMITH...he can go suck dog balls for all I care!
NFLPA??? National Fools and Lame Pricks Association!
ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT WE HAVE IN TEBOW? Watching Kyle orton is like watching re-runs of the Brady Bunch...you always know whats going to happen and makes you feel sick at the end!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Call a duck a duck
and the whole duck kingdom hates you for it.
27--29--11 May all your spirits rest in peace.
I am starting to hate them more than the raiders and there fans. They have gotten cocky lately . They are no longer humble .
by broncosfaninphilly on May 8, 2011 6:24 PM MDT up reply actions
Don’t worry.
As long as they have Matt Cassel as their QB they won’t win a championships.
Follow me on Twitter: ballinnickcast
Xbox360 gamertag: SnipeMeHarder
"They said I couldn't be a high school quarterback, they said I couldn't get a D1 scholarship. You're not good enough, you're not skilled enough. They said I couldn't win a heisman. They said I couldn't win a national championship. They said I wouldn't be a first round draft pick. They said I couldn't play in the league. Appreciate that." - Tim Tebow.
Find me a QB that led in passing yards that's ever won a superbowl the same year.
Takes a team, I’m afraid. And as of right now, the Chiefs have the better team.
Top 10 defense and another trip to the playoffs!
Tamba Hali, NFL Sack Leader, 2011
Can -- true, but that statement is not applicable to this Chiefs team.
Top 10 defense and another trip to the playoffs!
Tamba Hali, NFL Sack Leader, 2011
I wasn’t saying the Broncos were the better team. I was saying the Chiefs weren’t going to win any championships with Cassel as QB.
Follow me on Twitter: ballinnickcast
Xbox360 gamertag: SnipeMeHarder
"They said I couldn't be a high school quarterback, they said I couldn't get a D1 scholarship. You're not good enough, you're not skilled enough. They said I couldn't win a heisman. They said I couldn't win a national championship. They said I wouldn't be a first round draft pick. They said I couldn't play in the league. Appreciate that." - Tim Tebow.
Oh I am so going to copy and paste that one.
I didn’t comment on that post, but come on it’s all in fun and really it’s not anymore insulting than your Avatar pic. The Chiefs are building a damn good team, especially if this years draft works out like last years, so yeah we have cocky fans, just like the Broncos do.
I also believe the Chiefs will win Championships with Cassel at QB and in the next 2 years. Is this just your expert opinion on Cassel or do you have any links to back that claim up? What i saw was a QB that took care of the ball while throwing 27 TD and 7 INT, here’s the link. http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/teams/kan/stats
Cassel only needs more protection up front and a big WR opposite Bowe, for this offense to play better. I also think we addressed both those position with good players.
I think the Broncos are building a good team and had a great draft, but i think they’re a year behind the Chiefs in the rebuild process. I’m not going to say the Chiefs will own the Broncos this year, I’ll just let the team do the talking on the field.
Warning: If you're reading this it has been censored.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
My roommate in college was a huge Chiefs fan from Missouri, and I was talking to him about this exact topic. The problem with the way the Chiefs offense is built is that Cassel is a great QB with a lead and little pressure. It’s like the 05 Broncos team which won with great defense, a great running game, and an offense that required Jake Plummer to hand off, manage the game, and make a few key throws per game. Put Cassel on a team like that with a great running game, he’ll do fine.
However, if the Chiefs go down 14-0 in the 1st quarter of a game, put a cork in it, because Cassel just doesn’t scare anyone. He doesn’t. He’s scary with a 10 point lead because he won’t hand you the game, but with a 10 point hole, pile on the pressure and he won’t make you pay like a top tier QB will.
The Chiefs absolutely can turn into a playoff team, but not a championship team, and Cassel is why.
i was totally gonna post this exact thing.
in fact, i had to double check to make sure he wasn’t talking about ko
Miller Time!
This
The Chiefs have a chance to win the division for sure this year. But they, just like San Diego won’t make any noise in the playoffs, though for different reasons.
Cassel is not the premier answer for QB for you guys CPT and your defense isn’t going to scare anyone either.
"Bombs dropping down overhead. Underground. It's instilled to want to live." -EV
Is T.Dilfer a premier QB?
I don’t think Cassel is elite, but with the right team around him he can win the Super-Bowl. The Premier QB is what it takes to win a S.B line don’t work here. Yeah the Chiefs have no talent on “D” even with the players they added through the draft, Hali what a bust!
Warning: If you're reading this it has been censored.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
Cassel will get better...hes a mobile QB and he can make plays...needs some more time and he will keep getting better!
FIRE DE MAURICE SMITH...he can go suck dog balls for all I care!
NFLPA??? National Fools and Lame Pricks Association!
ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT WE HAVE IN TEBOW? Watching Kyle orton is like watching re-runs of the Brady Bunch...you always know whats going to happen and makes you feel sick at the end!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Your title point has been addressed
That’s why I said your D won’t scare anyone…when Dilfer was a SB QB, everyone was TERRIFIED of that defense.
You do not have that or anything close to it.
Hali is the bomb no doubt. But we have two guys (Bailey, Doom) just as cool and impactful and our defense blows chunks. One player doesn’t make a defense. Here’s some stats from last year to support my statement:
PTS
20.4
(11th)
YDS
330.2
(14th)
PASS YDS
219.9
(17th)
RUSH YDS
110.2
(14th)
Looks like a boat load of mediocre to me.
"Bombs dropping down overhead. Underground. It's instilled to want to live." -EV
Cassel vs Dilfer equalizes this comparison
Even when Dilfer was a SB QB, he wasnot a good QB.
Top 10 defense and another trip to the playoffs!
Tamba Hali, NFL Sack Leader, 2011
by ArrowSpread on May 10, 2011 12:15 PM MDT up reply actions
To most fans here
Winning a Super Bowl makes you great, because that means you pass the eye tests, stats don’t matter, what matters is wins and rings, and Dilfer has both, making him a winner, and wins are awesome.
Okay so that was an exaggeration, but it does represent a few members here, though sadaraine is a smarter man then that.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by Topher Doll on May 10, 2011 12:25 PM MDT up reply actions
People forget, but Dilfer was a Top 10 overall draft pick in his day. Guy was projected to be a franchise QB when he came into the NFL.
He had more physical gifts than Cassell, Orton or that ilk.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
Yea, but he didn't pan out
Dilfer wasn’t a great QB, heck he wasn’t a good QB, he actually never had a season up to the level of personal play that Orton and Cassel have enjoyed. Dilfer is a great example of someone who has the physical, ethic and leadership traits to succeed, and didn’t.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
I enjoy Dilfer as an analyst
But as a QB, no matter his gifts and work ethic, he never even lived up to average.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
I'm not sure what your point is
I may be a bit slow today, but we were discussing defense…what are you trying to say exacly?
"Bombs dropping down overhead. Underground. It's instilled to want to live." -EV
I see points made about both QB and defense in this thread
You (as in, You and CPT) were discussing both, and both play a part in winning championships. We do not have the y2k Ravens defense. We do not have their QB either.
Cassel is not the premier answer for QB for you guys CPT and your defense isn’t going to scare anyone either.
He is not elite, he is not premiere, and whatever else you want to label it. What he is, right now, is better than what Dilfer was then.
Top 10 defense and another trip to the playoffs!
Tamba Hali, NFL Sack Leader, 2011
I'll agree with that completely
Cassel > Dilfer
"Bombs dropping down overhead. Underground. It's instilled to want to live." -EV
Heh, sorry i was misleading there.
I think the Chiefs have several players that are good, in fact heads up the Chiefs can field a better defense at this point, rookies and all. Now with this years draft the Broncos jump right back in the thick of it and by years end depending on the rookies playing time could have a good defense by the end of the year.
Of coarse it was a boat load of mediocre and the year before was a boat load of manure. The point is we are rebuilding just like the Broncos, only we waited for 10 fricken years to do anything about it.
Warning: If you're reading this it has been censored.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
I'm with you now
And I concur with all your points. As much as I was happy about the chiefs sucking for awhile there, I’m glad to see them getting competitive again…I’d rather they be good than oakland or san diego.
Now if the Broncos can just get into the fray in the next couple years the rivalry will boil back up to where I have a bitter hatred of your team.
"Bombs dropping down overhead. Underground. It's instilled to want to live." -EV
Looking forward to #7 avoiding #58.
Warning: If you're reading this it has been censored.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
LOL
Thankfully those days are over.
I’m ready for new guys on both sides…though I’m game for continuing with the record of superbowl appearances / wins on both sides.
"Bombs dropping down overhead. Underground. It's instilled to want to live." -EV
Man i hope Miller doesn't play like D.T.
If the Chiefs played 4-3 on defense Miller would have been #1 on my wish list.
Warning: If you're reading this it has been censored.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
I think it could very well look like that
They seem to play similar styles from what little I’ve seen of Miller…he’s fast as DT was for sure.
"Bombs dropping down overhead. Underground. It's instilled to want to live." -EV
I disagree
In the past that might be true because Cassel didn’t have a pocket to step up into, and only had one true target at WR, Moeaki TE helped out some. That’s all changed now after the draft, we now have J.Asamoah who has one year under his belt learning and he can play either Guard postion. We also picked R.Hudson who can play any of the interior line positions and is quality depth. We also pick J.Baldwin 6’-4" 229 a big WR with good hands and speed, this kid will make a big difference on how teams play us on defense now.
Warning: If you're reading this it has been censored.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
I never said that the Broncos were better then the Chiefs. I just said that the Chiefs will not win a Super Bowl with Cassel as their QB.
I think Chiefs fans way overestimate Cassel’s ability. He didn’t even complete 60% of his passes last year and he only threw 6.9 yards per completion. I don’t believe he has the ability to lead a game winning drive with 2 minutes left against the Steelers defense.
That’s just my opinion. The Chiefs may win the AFC West the next 2 years, but they will not win a super bowl. Not with an average defense and an average QB. Jamal Charles can’t do it by himself and he is not invincible.
Follow me on Twitter: ballinnickcast
Xbox360 gamertag: SnipeMeHarder
"They said I couldn't be a high school quarterback, they said I couldn't get a D1 scholarship. You're not good enough, you're not skilled enough. They said I couldn't win a heisman. They said I couldn't win a national championship. They said I wouldn't be a first round draft pick. They said I couldn't play in the league. Appreciate that." - Tim Tebow.
IMO it was the lack of talent at WR and a O-line that started the year on fire but ran out of gas over the last 8 games.
I also think you’ll see those numbers improve vastly this year if Baldwin pans out. The depth we have on the offensive line now and the depth on the front 7 on “D”. Talent wise the Chiefs have improved alot in the last 2 years.
The Chiefs defense was almost dead last in about every category, and in one year they jumped to mid pack under R.Crennel. My guess is top 10 next year even with the tough schedule, but we’ll see.
Warning: If you're reading this it has been censored.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
I don’t see Baldwin and Hudson as the answers to the Chiefs offense.
Baldwin is going to be a rookie. Rookie WR rarely make a huge impact and he has to learn the offense in the midst of a lockout. On top of that, the Chiefs have a hard schedule this year. I don’t expect much from him this year. He’s got the physical tools but he’s got the “diva” label so we will see. I’m optimistic that Haley’s offense will be much worse then Weis’.
As far as the defense, I am pretty confident that it will not be top 10. They haven’t made any significant additions unless you think Houston and Bailey are significant. I don’t. I have my doubts that Houston is a good 3-4 prospect and Bailey is just way too raw.
I think the Chiefs will have a much worse record then last year. This year., the AFC West is the Chargers to lose.
Follow me on Twitter: ballinnickcast
Xbox360 gamertag: SnipeMeHarder
"They said I couldn't be a high school quarterback, they said I couldn't get a D1 scholarship. You're not good enough, you're not skilled enough. They said I couldn't win a heisman. They said I couldn't win a national championship. They said I wouldn't be a first round draft pick. They said I couldn't play in the league. Appreciate that." - Tim Tebow.
The Chiefs were able to get Baldwin a play book before the lock out.
Baldwin has been training with L.Fitzgerald and has been working with Cassel and the other WR’s for over a week now. Like i said “IF” Baldwin pans out like i believe he will the Chiefs offense should be vastly improved. The Chiefs offensive line was pretty good last year, but the older guys like C.Weigmann, B.Water wore down and R.Lilja was pushed 5 yards deep every play. But we have J.Asamoah who might even start this year at one of the guard positions, and Hudson to give Casey a break or take over before years end.
I think Haley will open up the passing game a little and Baldwin will have the advantage of getting to work with his QB right now. That’s what anyone would want to hear if they had a guy that could have issues, keep his mind on football.
I agree the schedule is tough especially the last half, 2 things can happen to the Chiefs during that period. One we could completely fall apart, showing we still have work to do, or Two we could use those games against good teams as a stepping stone to the play-offs if we improve as a team this year.
Warning: If you're reading this it has been censored.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
Most everyone here (looking at you and Alex) was skeptical that Romeo, Eric Berry, Kendrick Lewis, and Shaun Smith could turn around a 30th-ranked defense. Those additions were not enough, around here, to improve our defense significantly. But it was.
Why , then, can adding a big body to the NT rotation, even more competition at OLB opposite Hali, and the forever-preached continual in-house development NOT improve our defense from 14 overall to 10?
How are you so confident in this?
Top 10 defense and another trip to the playoffs!
Tamba Hali, NFL Sack Leader, 2011
LOL
Ya know, the other day I went to this Bronco’s blog and a chief’s thread broke out.
Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
Wouldn't be the first time
Won’t be the last.
Top 10 defense and another trip to the playoffs!
Tamba Hali, NFL Sack Leader, 2011
At least we dont bar the Chief's fans from our site...I enjoy the concourse.
FIRE DE MAURICE SMITH...he can go suck dog balls for all I care!
NFLPA??? National Fools and Lame Pricks Association!
ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT WE HAVE IN TEBOW? Watching Kyle orton is like watching re-runs of the Brady Bunch...you always know whats going to happen and makes you feel sick at the end!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
agreed
Hope everyone got the sarcasm/joke?? You know, I went to a fight and a hockey game broke out, hahahah……… :/
Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
I got it man....gave me a good chuckle!
FIRE DE MAURICE SMITH...he can go suck dog balls for all I care!
NFLPA??? National Fools and Lame Pricks Association!
ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT WE HAVE IN TEBOW? Watching Kyle orton is like watching re-runs of the Brady Bunch...you always know whats going to happen and makes you feel sick at the end!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Yeah go Chiefs.........ahhhhhhh wait wrong blog.
From Hell’s heart I stab at thee. For Hate’s sake, I spit my last breath at thee.
Warning: If you're reading this it has been censored.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
by CPT.Caveman on May 10, 2011 10:00 PM MDT up reply actions
That was hilarious!
A classic literary AND Star trek quote all in one! It doesn’t get much better than that.
Take my advice... I'm not using it!
"If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague."
by BroncTastic on May 12, 2011 11:36 AM MDT up reply actions
I was never skeptical of Eric Berry. I knew how good he was and did NOT want him on the Chiefs.
I don’t believe Powe, Houston, or Bailey are going to be enough to improve the defense from 14 to 10. That’s just my opinion. I have serious doubts in how Houston will do in a 3-4. Bailey is so raw he will take 3 years before he makes any impact. Powe was a good pick up for you guys. He will rotate in.
I just don’t see how those 3 players make your defense a top 10 unit. At least not in year 1.
Follow me on Twitter: ballinnickcast
Xbox360 gamertag: SnipeMeHarder
"They said I couldn't be a high school quarterback, they said I couldn't get a D1 scholarship. You're not good enough, you're not skilled enough. They said I couldn't win a heisman. They said I couldn't win a national championship. They said I wouldn't be a first round draft pick. They said I couldn't play in the league. Appreciate that." - Tim Tebow.
Don't forget Gabe Miller OLB
Even though he was a complete unknown to most, he has a faster 10 yard time than V.Miller. The other unknown guy Shane Bannon FB/TE who reportedly blows people up blocking. I have a feeling him and Miller will get to know each other soon, my only hope is he’s not blocking air when it comes to Miller.
Houston will be a rotational player too IMO until his coverage skills improve, which was something i worried about if we picked him. I do think with him and Hali rushing the QB we’ll have a pretty good pass rush.
Warning: If you're reading this it has been censored.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
by CPT.Caveman on May 10, 2011 10:15 PM MDT up reply actions
Cassel is plenty good for the Chief's to win a championship
Their problem is as a whole, they still have a ways to go before they are more than mediocre. They’ve been semi-successful (its not like they were good last year… they were mediocre with an absurdly easy schedule) by relying on one of the top big-play RBs in the league for their offense. Unfortuinately for them RBs have an absurdly short shelf-life. They have basically 3 core elite players… Charles, Flowers and Hali… everyone else is mediocre/good or worse.
By the time they find and develop talent in the rest of their roster, Charles likely will be old and less explosive, and the rest of their team is mediocre. Their defense has a couple interesting players, but a lot of chaff too. They have some interesting young players they’ve drafted… but every team in the NFL likes the folks they drafted. The only way the Chief’s win a SB is if those guys, 3-4 years from now, develop better than the guys we, indy, NE, SD etc. drafted the past 2 years… so it is an even odds sort of situation. I don’t see the Chiefs winning a SB in the next 2-3 years, and don’t see a big foundation for beyond that either.
The teams that scare me more are those with 7+ elite young core players or young top QBs… Pitt’s there (Roeth, Mendenhall, Pouncey, Woodley, Hood, etc.), GB (Rodgers, Mathews, Raji, Jennings, etc)., maybe NE (just from sheer quantity of young-ish good players on DEF)… everyone else is in the same boat… hoping to build off a few core players for the future.
Saying the Chiefs are any closer to success 3 years from now than Denver is speculative at best. They’re definitely better today, but their foundation for the future is not really stronger than here in Denver. They have as a young core (not counting current picks or unproven players) Charles, Flowers, Hali… we have Clady, Doom…
The who you think will be the better team in a few years is predicated on whether you think Cassel will be better than TT, Walton vs. Dorsey, irving vs.Baldwin, Franklin vs. Asamoah, etc…. its all speculative, because these are all young, undeveloped players. They will get better (or worse), and will be supplemented by future drafts and FAs…. Thinking your team will be better in the future isn’t the point, as that is true for many most young teams…. what it ignores the fact that ALL TEAMS are improving… so its a moving goalpost.
Chiefs fans are douches
all you have to say is GO BRONCOS over there and you’re banned forever. Oh well, I hope they enjoyed their playoff berth last season, they won’t be back
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on May 8, 2011 10:26 PM MDT up reply actions
Me too. I’m banned from Arrowhead Pride for destroying some tool named HIVtoElway.
That site is a joke.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
I am in great company then mate...I even emailed the dude...whatever...GO BRONCOS!
FIRE DE MAURICE SMITH...he can go suck dog balls for all I care!
NFLPA??? National Fools and Lame Pricks Association!
ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT WE HAVE IN TEBOW? Watching Kyle orton is like watching re-runs of the Brady Bunch...you always know whats going to happen and makes you feel sick at the end!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
HIV to Elway sounds great
I don’t remember anyone on MHR having the screen name syphilistoOkoye
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on May 8, 2011 10:27 PM MDT up reply actions
Steve Atwater took care of Okoye’s career for us. Christian was never the same after “the Hit”.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
That is true!
one of my most vivid MNF memories!
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on May 9, 2011 2:28 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Wish i could have caught that, I tried to make AP make him change his ID, and I'm a douchebag Chiefs fan.
Warning: If you're reading this it has been censored.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
I wouldn't say you are a DB
Crass sometimes, yes, but you typically mind your Ps and Qs here which is all anyone should ask.
"Bombs dropping down overhead. Underground. It's instilled to want to live." -EV
hey CPT. ...
you are definitely not a douchebag. In fact you are one of my favorites on this site, which says a lot coming from me considering I really don’t like the Chefs.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 11, 2011 9:42 PM MDT up reply actions
Well then how do you like your eggs, sunny side up?
Thanks for the compliment.
Warning: If you're reading this it has been censored.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
My work is done there.
Feel free to roll through, check it out.
27--29--11 May all your spirits rest in peace.
http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2011/5/8/2160808/caption-this-john-elway
27--29--11 May all your spirits rest in peace.
by Joe Medina on May 8, 2011 6:31 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Good job Joe!
Wow only takes 3 recs to go green over there huh? Not exactly high standard
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
This just pisses me off
didn’t need that this morning. I would have gotten myself banned from their site but alas I am not a member to begin with.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
HAHA!
That was pretty much awesome! They had one good season (easiest schedule in NFL) and got crushed by Baltimore and think they are sooooo cool now. I am glad you got them all riled up I hope we stomp them next year.
What kind of division champion
gets swept by the Raiders?
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on May 8, 2011 10:28 PM MDT up reply actions
I made a nice little caption myself.
Please rec accordingly.
Von Dooooooooom.
by ChristianL on May 9, 2011 8:56 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Your caption
was sweet! Love it! Couldn’t rec it, I’m not a member over there. +1 over here though!
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
Just turned you green
Congrats!
"It's all over Fat Man" - Tom Jackson to John Madden 1977 AFC Championship Game
RIP Barrel Man - 12/5/09
by DesertBroncoFan on May 9, 2011 1:23 PM MDT up reply actions
Great Post! rec'd
I feel that Tebow will learn the most by playing and must start this year. Plus I would much rather watch games with Tebow as QB because I feel he always gives us the chance to win.
THIS!
FIRE DE MAURICE SMITH...he can go suck dog balls for all I care!
NFLPA??? National Fools and Lame Pricks Association!
ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT WE HAVE IN TEBOW? Watching Kyle orton is like watching re-runs of the Brady Bunch...you always know whats going to happen and makes you feel sick at the end!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
don’t pull a Jacksonville or Houston and get stuck in 7-9 to 9-7ville.
Unfortunately, the Broncos have also been stuck in this area since the 06 season
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
If Tebow doesn't succeed, I will be wrong with you and alot of people around here.
Almost right away, by the end of the first game versus CIN you could see he had pocket presence and he belonged. I made a couple of calls as well that night, warning my Raider fan of a brother that Tebow would be a good player in this league. To his credit, he was pissed we drafted him in the first place.
He can get good at many of his flaws, his consistency withaccuracy on short passes especially to the right, will always be his biggest challenge. His strengths out weigh this and I get the feelingthat he will be plenty accurate all over the field in crunch time.
Good read .Now, just remember you were thinking of someone else and the Miami tackle actually is good.
luckily im a bronco and a blazer fan
Afraid not my man. Orlando Franklin was the worst LT ever when Miami moved him from Guard.
I have no idea why Denver spent a premium pick on a guy that simply can’t pass block to save his life.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
There are a couple reasons we spent that pick on Franklin that I can think of.
It took away the priority of drafting a rush blocking OL. We were then able to draft two potential defensive steals in a row. Things are up in the air with Ryan Harris due to the CBA situation. We might be able to keep him depending on the outcome. If thats so, Franklin can be depth for the first year while getting plenty of NFL coaching from Magazu. The only real plus I can find with Franklin is his maul like rush blocking. Thats something we were missing. Our rushing game was terrible, but how often were our guys getting hit 5 yards behind the line of scrimmage? Way too often. I think a lot of it was scheme, injuries and inexperience. We have guys that can work in the new scheme, but we were missing the kind of attack that a guy like Franklin can potentially bring. If the coaches really had as much input as advertised, Magazu liked this guy. And theres a lot to like about Magazu. IMO, the CBA situation will have a big effect on Franklin’s potential for success. If we keep Harris and bring Franklin on slowly, we can build a great line. If we lose Harris and don’t find an able replacement, we might have to rush Franklin in and I don’t believe that would work out too well for him.
There is no way you can call Irving a steal. Most teams had him rated in round 3 or lower so if anything, we reached on him…
I’ll give you our 4th round pick, that was great value.
We may enjoy Franklin’s run blocking, but the ONE thing that will ruin an NFL season is an injury to your QB. Franklin got Miami’s QBs murdered a few times in 2010 because he was either: too slow, too confused or too ineffective to protect the QB.
I’m sorry, but the NFL does not sub in O-linemen from play to play… You have to be able to run block and pass block to be an NFL offensive linemen that starts. Franklin can’t pass block so he can’t be a starter. He really does suck in pass block. He is terrible.. I’ve seen it with my own eyes too many times. It’s not a matter or coaching or inexperience. He’s just not built right or smart enough to be a good pass protector.
I’ll be totally and beyond shocked if he pans out for Denver at Tackle. I’ll be somewhat surprised if he pans out a Guard.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
I will say though
That I do blindly trust Dave Magazu. Seems to me that he’s one of the pre-emminent Oline coaches (if not #1) the NFL. If he sees something in Franklin that he belives that he can develop, then by all means, I support the pick.
At face value, Denver reached on Irving and Franklin. But they followed their draft board, and now we have to be patient.
Maybe Nate Irving will be a stud. Ya know, we all glorify Al Wilson all the time, but he absolutely had holes in his game. Irving doesn’t have to be perfect, but he has to have talent, upside, desire, the ability to play with great physicality, and leadership. If he has those things, then I am excited to see him at MLB next season. And you sort of have to trust Fox’s LB choices. He has a really good track record of success.
Leadership
Al had that in Spades.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 9, 2011 11:25 AM MDT up reply actions
I’m much more trusting with the Irving pick. I have no issues with that choice. I just pointed out it wasn’t a steal and it wasn’t.
But the Franklin one.. not good at all. We had faith that Nulley could coach up our D-line in 2009 and 2010, but you can’t make McBean a player with any amount of coaching and our D-line play wasn’t good in 2010 at all.
McBean = Franklin. I believe this will prove out in TC.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
I never said he was a steal, that can’t be said without them playing a single game. However, I think they both have the potential to be solid starters in the future, which would make them a steal. Irving was given those later round projections largely based on his injury, not his play. His film is great, and I have no doubt we drafted him projected to be a starter(probably not right away).
As for Franklin, he could very well turn out to bust. I was just trying to point out a possible why to answer the question of drafting him. Magazu could have liked him a lot and the pick at that spot looked like part of an overall strategy. For our board, Franklin was just as the right place at the right time. All speculation of course.
I don’t think so with Franklin. It took us the full 10 minutes + 10 minutes on the Moore pick to take Franklin. Me thinks we were trying to trade out of that spot and move down.
When we couldn’t come up with a good trade, at the very last second we submitted our pick for Orlando.
But I think Denver wanted out of that 46th pick.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
Neither of those points really refute what I suggested. If we tried to trade down and failed, then we didn’t feel very strong about a lot of players and their value at 46. That mixed with us taking all the clock to make the pick would make Franklin look even more like a strategic move. A lot of people argue about BPA, or needs based drafting, however I think its a hell of a lot more complicated than that. Our overall strategy seemed to be to pick up low risk(relative to their position taken in draft), high potential players. Franklin was the only pick that didn’t appear to fit that mold. Its why I believe he was drafted as a move to enable us to pick up some guys we felt were going to fall(and did) and also because he is a mauling run blocker.
It’s an interesting theory, but I still don’t understand why we couldn’t draft a DT or Bowers there. Why not add a good starter vs a not good one.
Since Franklin is the only pick I really don’t like, I shouldn’t fret too much over it. I just wish we hadn’t used a premier pick on him.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
When Jenkins got taken a few picks before hand, I think that forced us to take someone that didn’t have great value for the 46th. We weren’t that high on Austin and Paea, and Bowers is clearly very high risk, very high potential and he doesn’t fill a hole in our defense. Maybe we felt stronger about DT in free agency versus OL, so we filled the need we felt was going to be most prominent after the FA phase. Once(if) FA starts, I think the overall picture will start to clear up. Even then, the Franklin pick will always remain the most perplexing of this draft.
Parcells had him as a 1st round pick...just saying...and he knows the game pretty well I would say!
FIRE DE MAURICE SMITH...he can go suck dog balls for all I care!
NFLPA??? National Fools and Lame Pricks Association!
ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT WE HAVE IN TEBOW? Watching Kyle orton is like watching re-runs of the Brady Bunch...you always know whats going to happen and makes you feel sick at the end!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
UMM
I think we drafted Franklin to play DT.
(Not really.)
But I think, honestly, he could do it.
Von Dooooooooom.
Pass blocking
shouldn’t be that hard, I was a lineman on my freshman football team and I always thought pass blocking was easier than run blocking
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on May 9, 2011 2:31 PM MDT up reply actions
Why didn't you say something earlier? I was stressing the pick up until now.
luckily im a bronco and a blazer fan
Run blocking is much more a function of athletic strength and quickness
Pass blocking takes strength, quick hands, quick feet, flexibility, intelligence, determination and stamina. Focus on an OT as he sets for his pass pro. The whole process of moving backward quickly with your feet staggered and your knees bent while maintaining your center of gravity over your feet and focusing on the oncoming pass rusher is completely unnatural. I played C and OG in college. The ability to to drop into a your pass pro space as a T is exactly what separates guys who can play OT from the other spots on the Oline. If Franklin couldn’t do it well in college, I doubt he will be able to develop pass pro abilities at the professional level. There is a good reason why OLTs get paid so well – the skill required to do what offensive tackles do in the passing game is just that – a skill – one that takes as much if not more refining than the ability to catch a football while running full speed.
by DE_BroncoFan on May 10, 2011 11:51 AM MDT up reply actions
The biggest mitigating factor to Franklin's poor passblocking indicated by McG...
is he won’t be isolated at the end of the line very often like he was as an LT.
As an RT, he’ll typically at least get a chip from the TE meaning his blocking is more like that of a Guard, rather than like an LT where he has a whole open side to cover (creating opportunities for confusion and slow feet)…. everything will be more in front of him (rather than coming from multiple directions) where he can use his physical strengths…. or so I hope….
Thank you for explaining so eloquently
the fallacy of “for the future of Tebow, Orton must stay” argument. What was with the MHR’s fascination with the idea that Tebow is likely to be injured, so we need Orton to save Broncos from tanking and getting into position where Luck will be drafted? At the end of 2011 Tebow will be evaluated. If EFX decide to draft another QB, it will be because Tebow did not show that HE CAN. If Tebow’s injured and misses majority of games, his mark will be N/A. It does not justify drafting top-of 1st round QB. The decision will have to be delayed until our 1st round QB can receive a fair mark. If he is not good, we will be drafting at the top of 1st round again – and there will be QBs worth taking there, as there are every year. You can not target any single year claiming QB crop in specific future draft will be best of a decade – it is unrealistic to project such things ahead of time.
I aim to put an end to any talk of keeping Orton around in case Tebow is injured or hurt. I have no desire to watch Kyle guide us to another 6-10 type season.
Besides, Orton is the injury prone player, which never seems to be mentioned by the camp that wants to keep Kyle around in 2011. Orton’s been injured 3 times in two seasons. That’s a terrible ratio for a starting QB.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
Yep - and another thing
The Broncos (and the NFL) are entertainment. Nothing more. Nothing less. They’re not some mutual fund that we all hope pays us out in 4 years.
I want to be entertained on Sundays. And Kyle Orton gives me ZERO entertainment value. He’s not fun to watch. He brings NOTHING SPECIAL to the table. Yes, I am jaded by having Elway here, but no, I don’t expect “the second coming of Elway” to ever happen. But I do expect the Broncos to have a goal of competing for the NFL title to be the #1 goal every season. And beyond that, I want to really enjoy watching the team play and I want the QB to have something special. Tebow might, so let’s see. If he doesn’t then lets get someone SPECIAL in here who does.
by super7 on May 9, 2011 11:17 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
who has ever said "Orton must stay"
I’ve never seen that viewpoint.
I’ve seen arguments that Orton staying won’t impair our boy Tebow’s development, but never the “fallacy” you claim… your argument looks like a strawman argument.
I personally like the idea of having a good backup, and IF WE CAN’T GET GOOD TRADE VALUE, see no problem keeping Orton… to me, that is the key.
The TT injury argument vs. Orton injury argument also misses the point. The fact is that both Orton and TT are more likely, either due to history or style, to be injured than an average NFL QB (which is fairly likely for any QB)… so unless you don’t care about winning, you want 2 good QBs, not just 1. I don’t care if that is Orton with TT backing up, or TT with Orton backing up, or TT with McNabb backing up, or whatever… the actual players are irrelevant. I just don’t want to tank a season because BQ is the best option off the bench.
I don’t buy the “its better to lose big” than be mediocre argument… the draft is such a crapshoot, that i don’t think the expected value gain is worth the fan heartache, the losing culture the team risk’s developing, the media scrutiny, or the difficulties in developing players under such a context. I also recognize that others can disagree… but I hope those that do disagree realize I don’t think that because I’ know nothing about football, business, etc… there are perfectly logical reasons why reasonable people can come to differing conclusions here.
Agreed. Great write-up
I think 2011 will very likely be Tebow’s year. What concerns me is the idea that he has a one-year lease on the job and if that doesn’t pan out like expected we’d just grab Andrew Luck. Luck shouldn’t even be on our radar at this point.
If we go with Tim, we need to expect to develop him at that position for a couple of years. If we really believe his ceiling is so high we have to give him time to achieve it. But if we are simply saying to him do well or be done in one year, I think we are doing our most valuable pick from last year’s draft a huge disservice.
Buying into the Tebow project partly means selling out the Luck “insurance plan”.
I’d rather build around Tebow. If that doesn’t work, give me Luck or Barkley next year.
If we build around Tebow now, we shouldn’t be talking about Luck or Barkley next year, but we might eventually be talking about a current high school senior or freshman a few years down the road if we realize Tim isn’t our guy.
If Tim plays he needs the time to play and learn, like you were arguing. If we struggle then we need to help him get better and continue to replace our team needs with high draft picks. Luck does become that worst case scenario in my mind where we’ve already given up on another QB, we’ll be blowing up an entire draft to get a new rookie QB (and we will have to blow up a draft to get Luck if he retains his value), and then we’ll be forced to start Luck at QB from game one and hope that he brings the magic… which no rookie has ever been able to do.
I think what the Panther’s did with Clausen was just awful. Perhaps they had no choice and maybe he really was just bad, but to bring in his replacement after just one terrible rookie season? What winning franchise can do that year after year?
GB2
Tulogit to quit.
by BroncoPH on May 8, 2011 10:44 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Luck is not on my radar because I think Tebow will prove out as a legit NFL stud QB.
But my backup plan of Andrew Luck is much better than the MHR backup plan of Orton and then Kellen Clemmons in 2012. Most scouts agree that Luck is the best QB prospect in a decade so that can’t possibly be the worst case scenario. Denver lands the best QB to enter the NFL since Manning?
Go look at Clausen’s stat line… He really WAS that bad last year.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
Impact on Bronco's FA ambitions
The other thing is that the $8-9M that Kyle is pulling down can be directly transferred towards a running back and a defensive tackle or two. That’s the other kicker in trading him.
I like KO. But the logic of trading him is much greater than keeping him. Good article McG
"Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space."
"It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potatoes" Douglas Adams
by orange&blue_aussie on May 8, 2011 10:53 PM MDT reply actions
+1
I like the KO, but the $$$ dowsn’t make any sense to have him as a back up, also isn’t fair with him, since he coult start in Arizona or Washington…..
cutting Orton does not really allow you to spend more elsewhere
spending that extra money on a position group other than QB means you get roster imbalances that make it difficult to resign TT or a top of the draft QB next year.
At best that money can be spent on short-term rental FAs, and if its just going to be a short-timer sort of thing anyway, there is nothing saying that money isn’t best spent at backup QB.
Disagree
TT doesn’t need to be resigned for another 4 years. I say they give him another two years to prove what he can do so a top flight QB next year will not be imperative. Once again using next year’s top draft choice on the best defensive player would strengthen the team better than starting all over again at QB.
And I disagree with the concept that all FA’s are short term rentals. You play the market correctly and while expensive, you can get a top talent signed for between 3 and 5 years, which let’s face it, is all you’re basically getting from a draft pick before they hit free agency.
So cutting his salary would certainly go a long way to plugging up the middle of the defensive line or bringing in a top flight running back.
"Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space."
"It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potatoes" Douglas Adams
by orange&blue_aussie on May 11, 2011 8:26 PM MDT up reply actions
agree that not all FAs are short-term rentals
We definitely can spend money and give long-term contracts to FAs we want to keep long-term… and I expect us to do so…. with the money in the budget for those position groups.
but my point is that cap management needs means cutting Orton doesn’t help us do that.
Where we disagree is in your thinking that saving short-term money (Orton’s $) allows us to spend more on long-term players in another position group… while TT maybe signed for 4 more years, if he performs how we expect this year he’ll be due a raise sooner… if not, we’re in the market for a new starter (and their required salary). Either way, in the near term we’ll be needing to spend starter money on a QB.
Our current QBs as a position group make ~$16mill/year… thats pretty normal for an NFL team budget ($10+ for a quality starter, $2mill each for backups).
But if we cut Orton and save the $9 mil, but then spend that extra money up to our budget/cap on another position (DTs/LBs) for example, we now have a salary imbalance… we only have ~$6mill total for the whole QB position group (or maybe $9mill total if we spend $3M on a new vet backup, but the point is the same)…. that isn’t sustainable for more than a year or 2, as there is no money left to resign TT or another starting caliber QB.
To fix that we’d then have to canabalize salary from another position group (potentially the same one we just over-invested in)… that is a cycle of cap-death, because you can never keep your players… for example if your cheap rookies succeed, you have to let them go because your roster can’t absorb the need (because you’ve overinvested in some other position group).
The only non-painful way you get out of such a situation is to have sucky players that you don’t mind cutting… but that isn’t what we’re thinking ever, as we draft/sign folks because we think they can succeed. So basically saving Orton’s $9mil only opens up some money for a year or 2… which means we’re talking about using that money on rental players, and if that is the case, why not 1-year Orton?
Basically each position group has a rough budget… you can fiddle around the edges if the team especially strong in one group, but thats a million here or there… not 50% of the total position group budget. Fiddling has consequences too, because you get to be like Indy where 70% of the cap is spent on offense… it works for them, but only because Peyton is one of the top-3 QBs of all time… they pay for it too, because their defense is often weak. Nobody on our defense or who we’d pick up in FA is of that caliber.
Finally, remember we’re already going to be imbalanced in other areas too, because we’ll likely be paying Miller more than any other 4-3 LB in the league, Doom has a big deal, and Champ just got big money… and that is all long-term money (not short-term). Signing big-money long-term deals for FA’s above and beyond their position group money is to me a really bad idea for our long-term cap management, even if its POSSIBLE in the short-term because we’re skimping on the QB position.
Understand what you're saying
And I’m sure there are ideal salary bands that they want each position but these will ebb and flow as positions get older and younger. The Bronco’s are in an enviable position where they are young at QB for the next few years at least. They can afford to transfer that money to a vet in a position where they need to patch the depth like on the Dline. This doesn’t need to be a permanent situation. You can aim for the ideals of roster salary balance but the reality gets in the way sometimes.
I’m not short-termist by nature. My background is actually in strategic decision making. But you need to keep your ideals on the horizon and aim for them while making the most correct decisions to get yourself where you’re going.
Just on your last paragraph. There actually aren’t that many big money contracts on the team right now. Sure Champ and Doom got theirs. Kuper got his. Clady will in a year or two as will Lloyd I hope. But really there aren’t that many ticking time bombs salary wise on the team. Partly explains why we’ve been so terrible! I don’t see Royal getting a huge contract though i’d like to see him kept. I can see DJ’s salary disappearing in a couple of years. We lost Graham’s big salary this year. Bannan and Williams were cut. We’re in good shape cash wise, if not salary-cap wise (which I don’t pretend to keep up with)
"Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space."
"It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potatoes" Douglas Adams
by orange&blue_aussie on May 13, 2011 12:08 AM MDT up reply actions
disagree
I don’t think TT’s flaws would be fixed on the field during regular season games, or that anyone else starting would be tantamount to stealing his reps. Instead, if TT started (without any improvements in passing, footwork, or reading defenses) I think the Broncos would gameplan to disguise or minimize his flaws (e.g. calling an inordinate number of QB draws instead of just throwing the ball), which would be terribly disappointing to me. Any ceiling would be defined by what he can figure out as a first year starter, and he’ll never get better. There’s a chance that will be good enough, or that he has Elway talent and just hasn’t shown it yet, but I sincerely doubt it. As a Broncos fan, it’s not worth it to me.
I don’t know how Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady gained anything by being on the sidelines, but that’s what they’ve said. I will repeat it until it’s disproven: Regardless of what the fanbase wants, TT should only start when the coaches are comfortable with the idea he’ll be maximizing his potential as an NFL QB during regular season games, and it really doesn’t matter who starts or how the Broncos do until then. Until he can demonstrate tangibles of a playoff-caliber, non-running QB to the coaches, it’s not worth throwing him out there with fingers crossed that he’ll get better over time.
There’s a chance that will be good enough, or that he has Elway talent and just hasn’t shown it yet, but I sincerely doubt it.
Why do you doubt it? All he does is win and do what it takes to be the best he can possibly be. Why would you doubt his skill set?
As a Broncos fan, it’s not worth it to me
That’s precisely why it should be worth it to you. You’re a Broncos fan, and this team has one of the most polarizing figures in the game. What’s funny is Tebow isn’t polarizing in his skills, he’s polarizing in all the ways that shouldn’t matter at all. His skills are evident, and no one can honestly deny that. Some players work hard to be great (Tom Brady) and other players just have it in them (John Elway). For my money, I’m betting that Tebow is more like Elway in this case than Brady, and that’s a good thing.
Regardless of what the fanbase wants, JOHN FOX is going to put the best 53 men on the roster, and only one quarterback will start on Sunday. If that man is Tim Tebow, you better believe it’s because he earned it and if he’s good enough to start in the eyes of our head coach, then he’s good enough for me.
27--29--11 May all your spirits rest in peace.
uh, just in case you wanted a response
I doubt that he is a polished NFL QB but I do not dispute that any doubts would be proven or disproven by his performance as the future quaterback of the Broncos.
To the extent he cannot have a drop-back passing game similar to Mannings/Brady/Brees/Rivers/Rodgers instead of similar to Michael Vick’s approach to passing and defenses, or tries Florida college ball on the NFL field, then I remain very pessimistic. It’s my pessimism, you don’t have to share it.
by cosBroncosFan on May 9, 2011 2:01 AM MDT up reply actions
Your pessimism is not based on anything factual or grounded in common sense.
FIRE DE MAURICE SMITH...he can go suck dog balls for all I care!
NFLPA??? National Fools and Lame Pricks Association!
ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT WE HAVE IN TEBOW? Watching Kyle orton is like watching re-runs of the Brady Bunch...you always know whats going to happen and makes you feel sick at the end!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
1. Rivers was anything but a polished NFL QB when he got started. People complained about his mechanics actually.
2. Brees was considered to be far from a prototypical polished NFL QB. He was considered to be way too short to be a big-time QB.
3. Rodgers also had some weird mechanics issue, and he was far from a polished QB when he first came into the league.
It’s just crazy to me how people are criticizing Tebow as “he might not pull it together” while advocating taking a rookie QB in the draft. I mean, what? What makes Tebow less likely to pan out than any other rookie QB? Tebow at least has a year of experience under his belt.
by scooter17 on May 9, 2011 6:26 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
There ya go again Scooter...using common sense and logic in an argument...why would you do that here of all places????
FIRE DE MAURICE SMITH...he can go suck dog balls for all I care!
NFLPA??? National Fools and Lame Pricks Association!
ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT WE HAVE IN TEBOW? Watching Kyle orton is like watching re-runs of the Brady Bunch...you always know whats going to happen and makes you feel sick at the end!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
teblow sux!!!!111oneone1!!!!!
is that better?? ;)
Yep...good job...now feels more like home...just joking everyone!
FIRE DE MAURICE SMITH...he can go suck dog balls for all I care!
NFLPA??? National Fools and Lame Pricks Association!
ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT WE HAVE IN TEBOW? Watching Kyle orton is like watching re-runs of the Brady Bunch...you always know whats going to happen and makes you feel sick at the end!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
It’s just crazy to me how people are criticizing Tebow as "he might not pull it together" while advocating taking a rookie QB in the draft. I mean, what? What makes Tebow less likely to pan out than any other rookie QB?
Absolutely, and that’s exactly what I want to hear the naysayers answer. It goes back to what several of us have discussed – that Tebow is held to a higher standard than everyone else. It’s as if he’s already supposed to be playing like a seasoned veteran Elite – after three games! I just don’t get it.
"It is our attitude at the beginning of a difficult task which, more than anything else, will affect its successful outcome." - William James
Exactly!
“Tebow is held to a higher standard than everyone else.”
I was baffled to see many people (thankfully not many around here, but still a few) pushing things like drafting Gabbert or Newton – saying Tebow isn’t a for-sure thing. And what makes those people think Newton or Gabbert are or have a better shot than Tebow? Nothing other than the MSM-ism that he has bad mechanics. Who do you want?
1) Rookie QB with zero NFL experience
2) 1 year QB with a season under his belt, plus 3 starts in which he flashed oodles of potential.
Should be brain-dead obvious but not to everyone it seems.
by scooter17 on May 9, 2011 9:28 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed!
"It is our attitude at the beginning of a difficult task which, more than anything else, will affect its successful outcome." - William James
by FloridaFan62 on May 10, 2011 8:16 AM MDT up reply actions
Hate the "winner" argument
All he does is win
This is the worst argument I hear for Tebow. The logic behind it will cause the same people who repeat it to scream “loser” and call for his head after the first inevitable losing streak. If you’re only for Tebow because “all he does is win games”, you define yourself as the ultimate weathervane. He wins today – good. He loses – bad. That’s no way to judge any QB, especially a rookie.
by si_ice on May 9, 2011 7:22 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
I want Tebow to be judged on points scored in 2011. He he getting Denver’ offense into the end zone. If so, that is success.
It’s not subjective and it’s easy to measure.
If we still lose games with a high scoring offense, then we continue to draft and sign defenders until we have a defense that doesn’t lose us games. Which we haven’t had since 2005.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
by McGeorge on May 9, 2011 10:22 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
A lot of great NFL QBs were also throw into the fire in year 1. Guys like Elway, Payton Manning, Marino, Big Ben, Sam Bradford (looking good). And that didn’t even happen for Tim as he spent most of his rookie year on the sideline and then looked better than Orton when Tim was named the starter.
So your evidence of Rodgers and Rivers (I’ll use a better example for you) doesn’t hold water because for every Rodgers, I could give you three Payton Mannings (i.e. rookie QBs that were thrown into the fire and thrived to tell about it).
And besides, Tebow got nearly a full season on pine before he got his shot.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
I do think
his chances of success went way up with his first year sitting. I think they will go up more with another. I don’t disagree with what you are saying at all.
I just have a different clock and my own time table for the team. I don’t think the two camps here are really that far apart once you take the emotion away.
In any case, I think Orton and our improvements give us a chance at better than 6-10, I think Tebow has a chance at just as good a record. Really either QB will do fine with what we have done so far with the draft, improved coaching for the good players we already have, and just overall higher hopes for the future.
Now, how do we get to the future? That is the main disagreement.
Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
If I said 7-9 or 8-8, that doesn’t make much difference except that we’re picking around #13 overall instead of #8. No playoffs, marginal progress.
And do you dump Orton if by chance he improves the W-L record by four games?
Tebow needs practice and reps. If Orton is the starting QB, Tim gets neither. He’ll be in roughly the same spot in 2012 as he was in 2011. Some progress made and rust added.
And while I think our draft was solid, we’re playing rookies in 2011. Lots of rookies. That will not be conductive to a better W-L record. Von Miller and Co will make plenty of rookie mistakes that costs us points and games. Add in a new coaching staff and those growing pains… Don’t get your hopes up. We are going to suck this season.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
Too Late :D
But I hear ya.
Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
by Sean in Pa. on May 9, 2011 7:21 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
I almost don't want to start Orton
just because, if we do have a good year then what? Say Kyle proves to be better than anyone thought in the new system. Now we have a good veteran and a young stud. Heck of a problem to have…….
I would be happy to see him go where he can actually have a chance to start for a few years..
Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
If Orton plays well in 2011, we have a good Vet and we DO NOT have a young stud QB in the wings. All we have is some guy collecting dust that will collect more dust in 2012.
You can’t gain stud status rotting away on the bench. That only hurts your value because it means you’re not good enough to start.
You shouldn’t almost… you should want Orton to go elsewhere.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
Just a note McG
The ratio of Pro Bowl QB’s who sat or learned from a vet compared to those who started week 1 of their rookie seasons is a huge gap. Historically speaking, it’s not 1 Rodgers to 3 Mannings, it’s vice versa. That argument doesn’t hold much water, but because so many coaches have been on the line this past decade, coaching job security was much less secure in the 2000’s compared to the 1990’s, and because fans have grown more and more impatient, the myth of needing to start QB’s earlier and earlier has arisen, not because of actual evidence, rather because coaches want to keep their jobs and fans are growing impatient. Just a note.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by Topher Doll on May 9, 2011 8:45 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Tebow didnt start week 1 of his rookie season.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
Who said he did?
I’m taking about the idea that you need to start QB’s early to help their development, which isn’t true.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
I think in Tebows case it could be true.
I dont have stats to back that up, it is a hunch that is based on what I know about his personality. He is not the type that will give up. He is in fact the type that will likely feed off of adversity.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 9, 2011 12:50 PM MDT up reply actions
Not giving up doesn't equal success
I like Tebow, I hope he gets the chance to start next season, and I think Orton should be traded. Now that aside, just because someone seems like the type not to fail, doesn’t mean they won’t. Being great takes more then work ethic, and while I do think Tebow will succeed, all this talk of him not being able to fail, either because he’s a winner, he’s not the type to fail, or because it’s not in his blood it just crazy.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
I didnt say that he couldn't fail
All I am saying that with his personality type it is much less likely that playing poorly while he is learning will create a bust scenario. Hopefully that clears it up a little. I am a Broncos fan, I want to get things rolling and find out what we have. I just dont get the argument to sit him for another year. What is the benefit?
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
Oh I wasn't talking about you specifically
I’m talking about irrational Tebow fans, rather then Bronco fans who like Tebow.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
I wasn’t taking it personally. I think Tebow will be great, if not dump him and move on in 2012. I just dont want to sit him and then find out we have to move on in 2013-2014. We are rebuilding and want the QB position to come in with the young team so we can hopefully be dominant for several years. I get the argument for sitting him, I just dont think it is correct.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 10, 2011 6:07 AM MDT up reply actions
This is what I am not getting people...
The majority on this board want to give Tebow ONE YEAR…..ONE FRICKING YEAR….to prove himself. This is for a 1st round QB that showed great upside in 3 starts.
Check this sentence out and see how insane it seems:
From ’X" a Rams fan (made up): “We will let Bradford start, but if does not play like a seasoned vet in his first season, we will cut him and move on.”
Shit…substitue ANY 1st round QB in there.
Imagine if people had the same attitude with Elway, Manning, Marino, Aikman….man, the game would have lost some its greats.
Imagine if Walsh did not see the talent in Steve Young…
I AM CALLING YOU ALL OUT AND HAPPY TO:
WHY ARE YOU HOLDING TEBOW TO A DIFFERENT SET OF STANDARDS THAN ANY OTHER 1ST ROUND QB? WHY ARE YOU HOLDING HIM TO A DIFFERENT SET OF STANDARDS THAN MOST OTHER PLAYERS…..
It just blows me away…..what, we think we will know about how good Tebow is, one way or the other, after one season.
Does anyone else just see this as utter stupidity…
Sorry, just had enough…..and not directed at you MT…you are a good dude and I like your stuff….just the straw that broke this camels back!
FIRE DE MAURICE SMITH...he can go suck dog balls for all I care!
NFLPA??? National Fools and Lame Pricks Association!
ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT WE HAVE IN TEBOW? Watching Kyle orton is like watching re-runs of the Brady Bunch...you always know whats going to happen and makes you feel sick at the end!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
by boydy2669 on May 10, 2011 7:33 AM MDT up reply actions 6 recs
I hear ya, boydy!
And I’ve been harping on the same point – it’s like if Tebow doesn’t perform next season like Brady, Elway, Marino, Montana & P. Manning all COMBINED then he’s a bum and should be traded.
It just doesn’t make any sense.
My avatar displays my bias in favor of Tebow. However, despite my bias, I have been watching great NFL QBs since the late ‘60s and what I saw out of Tebow’s three starts really made me excited to see what he can do next season and beyond. Most of the GREAT QBs weren’t so great during their first two to three years as a starter.
So, I suggest we all give Tebow another year ot two and see how he is performing/progressing at that point before deciding if he is a bust. I happen to believe that he will become a great NFL QB.
"It is our attitude at the beginning of a difficult task which, more than anything else, will affect its successful outcome." - William James
by FloridaFan62 on May 10, 2011 8:33 AM MDT up reply actions
Thanks man....its just an INSANE set of expectations we are throwing at him.
FIRE DE MAURICE SMITH...he can go suck dog balls for all I care!
NFLPA??? National Fools and Lame Pricks Association!
ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT WE HAVE IN TEBOW? Watching Kyle orton is like watching re-runs of the Brady Bunch...you always know whats going to happen and makes you feel sick at the end!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
i'm kind of in the middle on that.
i think there’s enough questions about tebow that if he doesn’t show much progress by the end of next year then you probably need to look at the draft again. hate to do that, but it’s a strong QB draft. i felt this way about McD too—just show us some forward movement and we’re good. backwards? no thanks. please take your backwards somewhere else.
all that said, i definitely believe tebow should get this year and if/when he does i’m not worried about it. i’d bank on seeing a lot of improvement from him within a year’s time and my bet is he’ll be our QB for the foreseeable future.
I'm not sugarcoating this.
I totally get your point Boydy
and I agree %100. I guess in my desire for Tebow to start this year I get a little carried away with the argument. To me he already showed me enough in the last three games last year, he looked better than any rookie in his first few games than anyone I can remember. If we look at individual stats maybe not, but if we look at him coming in and leading the team… he had it all. Anyways, you are totally right he shouldn’t be held to a higher standard. Although I think Tebow might actually disagree.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 10, 2011 9:12 AM MDT up reply actions
Thank you boydy!
My thoughts exactly…
by Tuscani on May 10, 2011 11:55 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
the problem is that’s a very subjective judgment. Usually reached at by person A if person B defends Tebow in a way that person A wouldn’t. I never followed the gators and I’m also not religious, but since mid-season last year my sense has been that we know Orton’s ceiling, and don’t know Tebow’s. I believe Orton’s ceiling is low enough that he’s not a good enough future for the Broncos, and so therefore I’m pro-Tebow. Broncos first.
by tunesmith on May 10, 2011 4:02 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Perfectly stated Tune...I am just like...except I dislike the Gators, am as religious as regular house brick and was a Kyle Orton supporter for the longest time...and now I have seen enough of him leading this team...
In Tebow’s 3 games, and even from pre-season, I felt he was markedly ahead of where I, and many, thought he would be. I HATED drafting him, but I believe in this kid…he wont lie down, refuses to lose and is in Stink’s words…“A football player…”: thats the greatest compliment you can get…and thats why the Duke saying he is a great player speaks volumes.
FIRE DE MAURICE SMITH...he can go suck dog balls for all I care!
NFLPA??? National Fools and Lame Pricks Association!
ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT WE HAVE IN TEBOW? Watching Kyle orton is like watching re-runs of the Brady Bunch...you always know whats going to happen and makes you feel sick at the end!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
boydy
I think McD violated you somehow. You were one of the hopeful’s that always expected good things. Then you went very dark and angry, now you have mellowed a bit but still I think looking to change everything. I don’t mean offense to you, just sayin…..I liked your analogies to your coaching experience and what you see on the field or practice. I hope we get to read/hear the positive side from you soon.
Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
All cool mate...the BOLD was totally sarcastic and tongue in cheek my friend...
The other stuff in normal print I believe….In all seriousness, I wanted Orton to succeed in a HUGE way….as an Aussie we always love the under dog….and Orton is the epitome of that….hes a good guy, does a lot of cool stuff in the community, does not throw people under the bus…..in Australia would call him an Aussie Battler….but, reach into your heart….and this is when I started having my doubts…even when we had a 6-0 start that Orton was more lucky than good in a lot….not all….a lot of situations. Last season, I always had that fear of dread when the game was on the line and the ball in Kyle’s hands, and I wanted him to prove me wrong. the worst thing: the guys is just plain unlucky man….the botched snap in the Jets game for example. With Tebow…the complete opposite…I was almost expecting his Hail Mary against the Chargers to be caught. I just feel like we are always in the game with Tebow…maybe the IT factor. I want Kyle to get a fresh start and do great, but I want Tebow to get his shot and lead this team out of the cellar!
PS: I dont think McD violated me…he does not even know where I live!
FIRE DE MAURICE SMITH...he can go suck dog balls for all I care!
NFLPA??? National Fools and Lame Pricks Association!
ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT WE HAVE IN TEBOW? Watching Kyle orton is like watching re-runs of the Brady Bunch...you always know whats going to happen and makes you feel sick at the end!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Orton is class, the kind of guy you want to succeed.
I wish he was the answer for us. I really liked how you put this:
I was almost expecting his Hail Mary against the Chargers to be caught. I just feel like we are always in the game with Tebow…maybe the IT factor.
I know its not a great comparison, but I have watched the ESPN special on Brady a couple of times. I cant help but think of Tebow. They talk about that he was practically un-draftable but they forgot to open his chest and look at his heart and his spine. It really made me appreciate Brady, and how his story is not so different from Tebows. Except of course that Tebow was drafted in Round 1 and is a totally different type of QB. At any rate, it is a great program, I know it can be dug up on ESPN.com.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 10, 2011 9:34 PM MDT up reply actions
I dont believe any of those stats...we are dealing with individual that are ALL different...so you dont know whether that is true for Tebow, or any other QB.
FIRE DE MAURICE SMITH...he can go suck dog balls for all I care!
NFLPA??? National Fools and Lame Pricks Association!
ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT WE HAVE IN TEBOW? Watching Kyle orton is like watching re-runs of the Brady Bunch...you always know whats going to happen and makes you feel sick at the end!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Every fan believes their QB is unique
And will grow up to be a big boy and a Hall of Famer. I want Tebow to succeed, and I’m not going to box him into a corner, but I just showed the history of the matter, I wasn’t predicting Tebow’s success or failure.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
I know that Max...I am not just talking QB...any position....because we are dealing with COMPLETE individuals I think stats falls a little short as you just cant compare apples to apples ever is all I am saying man.
FIRE DE MAURICE SMITH...he can go suck dog balls for all I care!
NFLPA??? National Fools and Lame Pricks Association!
ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT WE HAVE IN TEBOW? Watching Kyle orton is like watching re-runs of the Brady Bunch...you always know whats going to happen and makes you feel sick at the end!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Oh I agree
It’s hard to judge and grade and predict a players success, but I’ll do my best using history as a guide rather then just going with a gut feeling.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Thats why I like chatting man...as a coach, I am a gut guy.....I coach by feel and flow...we are totally opposite but I love what you bring my man!
FIRE DE MAURICE SMITH...he can go suck dog balls for all I care!
NFLPA??? National Fools and Lame Pricks Association!
ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT WE HAVE IN TEBOW? Watching Kyle orton is like watching re-runs of the Brady Bunch...you always know whats going to happen and makes you feel sick at the end!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Yep
Thanks for your thoughts boydy, as always.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by Topher Doll on May 10, 2011 11:42 AM MDT up reply actions
No way…. I don’t believe you at all. There is no way you find a bunch of Pro Bowl QBs that didn’t start until year 3 (Rivers or Rodgers) over pro Bowl QBs that got their feet wet as full time or part time starters in year 1.
I call BS… but it’s a hunch.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
You don't have to believe me, but let's break it down
Guess I should do a post on this, but that would be a post that got sidetracked so I’ll just post the data here. Since 2000, here’s how Pro Bowl’s have been broken down in terms of QB’s:
- Started Year 1: 32 Pro Bowls, 10 players
- Started Year 2: 36 Pro Bowls, 12 players
- Started Year 3: 15 Pro Bowls, 7 players
- Started Year 4: 7 Pro Bowls, 5 players
All-Pro awards:
- Started Year 1: 5 All-Pro, 1 player
- Started Year 2: 4 All-Pro, 3 players
- Started Year 3: 0 All-Pro, 0 players
- Started Year 4: 1 All-Pro, 1 player
Take into account all 5 of the All-Pro awards were for Peyton Manning, and 12 of the 32 Pro Bowls were for Peyton Manning as well, you are much more likely to have a Pro Bowl QB developed by sitting him for a year of two. Now I know you called BS, so you don’t have to believe this, which is fine, but since 2000, most great QB’s have sat for a season or two.
Just did a brief look at the data if you go back farther, it’s even more skewed towards sitting, even if it’s just one year.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
I knew it.
You are making my case for me. Most All Pro and Pro Bowl QBs started in year 1 or 2. With Tebow, I’m saying to start him in year 2. It really falls off with guys that don’t start until year 3… which it seems like some here are advocating.
Orton was the starter in 2010 until he was injured. Tebow wasn’t a rookie starter until late in the season when there was nothing on the line but development. Oakland, Houston and San Diego were all out of the playoff mix by the time Tebow started. As was Denver of course. There were like glorified preseason games. Perfect for Tim, but I would not consider Tebow a year 1 starter.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
No, Manning started year 1
Almost no other “great QB” started year 1. Year 2, yes, and I have no idea why that wouldn’t be the case, I said as much earlier. If I were an NFL coach, I would sit my rookie QB’s till year 2 in almost any situation, unless we had no other QB worth starting, like Indy did with Manning and the Rams did with Bradford, both were the bets QB’s on the roster, they won TC. But in the case where I have a starter, even an average one, I’m sitting my rookie till year 2, it’s just good coaching.
I’m not a person saying we should sit Tebow for another year, unless Fox really believes Tebow’s that far behind. I’m making the point that the idea that QB’s should start year 1 and basing it on fact just isn’t correct. The best way to develop a QB, at least in the past decade, has been to have him sit for a year or two, then have them start, because if you take Manning out of the equation, it wouldn’t even be close. I just don’t like the current trend that says 1st round QB’s have to start right away, there’s not a lot of evidence of that at this point. Year 2 or year 3, that makes more sense, and from a purely number of great QB stand point, it is more likely as well.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
“If I were an NFL coach, I would sit my rookie QB’s till year 2 in almost any situation”
I agree with you here. 100%. There is no way in hell I’d advocate a 3 year wait though.. That is too long.
Aaron Rodgers and Phil Rivers would have been just fine if they had started in year 2. A good QB is a good QB.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
Rivers and Rogers
People refer to Rivers and Rogers both saying that sitting for 3 yrs was a good thing. I’ve always believed that was BS, they sat for 3 yrs. only because they were behind better players and were smart enough to say the politically correct thing so they didn’t disrupt the team. I’m in the no substitute for experience camp personally. Too many examples of yr 1 and 2 success.
"as in football so in life"
There is too many examples on both sides
With the favor leaning towards starting 2nd or 3rd year. But there are examples of year 1 success, they are just more rare, though they are often the most used in examples, though in the minority.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
The flaw with your argument
The flaw with your argument is this assumption that the 3rd year successful starter wouldn’t have been successful in his 1st or 2nd year. This is a false assumption, and if you take it into account, it very strongly swings the numbers in favor of the 1st-2nd year starters.
Not an assumption
More like knowledge, if the Packers felt Rodgers was ready, they’d have gotten rid of Favre sooner, if the Chargers felt Rivers was ready, they’d have traded Brees. A coaches knows much more then you or I, and they will do what’s best for their team, and if they feel a player is ready, they usually know better then any fan on the internet. So if I have to trust in random internet people over a coaches understanding of a players progression, I’ve got something wrong. You are correct, we can’t ever know, but I’m going to trust coaches over fans any day on when a player is ready.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
I guess
they have to crunch a bunch of numbers and do statistical analysis first. Never does the eye test or gut feeling come into their equation I am sure.
You can be dumb... that's ok! There are many dumb people.
You can be an a$$hole... that's ok! There are many of these as well.
Unfortunately you cannot be both...
Ok... prove me wrong.
Do you just ignore what I say or write?
I use the eye test, I spend more time rewatch games then I looking at stats, I just don’t let emotions rule what I believe, I prefer a combination of film and stats, though I know stats always bother people who prefer to just watch football, and not actually know what’s going on.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by Topher Doll on May 10, 2011 11:43 AM MDT up reply actions
sometimes I wonder
You can be dumb... that's ok! There are many dumb people.
You can be an a$$hole... that's ok! There are many of these as well.
Unfortunately you cannot be both...
Ok... prove me wrong.
you know
… I’ve seen you say this before… you do know that “the eye test” is just another way of saying “subjective judgement”, don’t you? Two people can watch the same film and come up with different conclusions.
Yep, that's why I wouldn't trust the eye test alone
Because it varies from person to person.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by Topher Doll on May 10, 2011 4:11 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
honestly
I disagree with both of these statements:
if the Packers felt Rodgers was ready, they’d have gotten rid of Favre sooner – Favre was VERY hard to get rid of.
if the Chargers felt Rivers was ready, they’d have traded Brees – It may have been difficult to get an equitable return for Brees… besides, it doesn’t prove that Rivers wouldn’t have been successful in his 1st or 2nd year. Using Brees instead is more just bird-in-the-hand thinking.
by tunesmith on May 10, 2011 4:06 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
yep
and they didn’t get rid of Brees until he had a pretty bad injury that may or may not have hampered his career. The Saints who I cant help but root for got the deal of the century.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 10, 2011 9:38 PM MDT up reply actions
I'd sit him for a 3rd year
If I had a solid QB playing already, If you look at the list of guys who sat 3 or 4 years, you have some of the best names. So I wouldn’t say for sure no 3rd year riding the bench, but if you have a great QB, no reason to get rid of him. I’m not disagreeing with “Aaron Rodgers and Phil Rivers would have been just fine if they had started in year 2. A good QB is a good QB.” But both had QB’s, why chance it, it didn’t cost the Packers or the Chargers anything to let them sit. So to me, if you don’t lose anything by letting them sit, and it only helps them, there is literally no downside. Now if you have a QB who needs to go, sure let the young guy start, but if you have Favre or Brees starting, there is no benefit to rushing anyone to start.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Agree.
Sadly for Denver, Orton is far from a Brees or Farve.
Kyle Orton’s are not a dime, maybe a dollar a dozen.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
I don't think anyone would call Orton Brees or Favre
But I will say, I had no problem with Tebow sitting last season if Orton had stayed healthy last season, but because he was playing injured, Tebow got a few starts. But had Orton remained healthy, I saw no reason to have Tebow play, just my opinion. Now I think Tebow should have the chance to compete for the starting job, and be favored going into the season, but I don’t think he should just be handed it, if he and Orton are on a similar level, start Tebow, but if Tebow is greatly behind either Orton or Quinn, whomever is still here, I don’t want to go 2-14 or worse just because fans want to stay the course with Tebow. If Tebow is terrible in TC and practice, and Fox feels like he’s not nearly ready, I’d rather not start him till the middle of the season.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by Topher Doll on May 9, 2011 11:49 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don’t want Orton there to push Tim. We can get great value trading Kyle now and Tim doesn’t need some decent low ceiling vet just beating him out.
And If Tebow can’t be out Brady Quinn, I want us to go 2-14 next year and draft Luck, whom many scouts are saying is the best QB prospect in a generation.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
I didn't say keep Orton to push Tim
I only want Orton here if Fox feels Tebow is going to suck. I don’t want to lose purposely because fans can’t make up their mind on who they want at QB. Great teams aren’t built by playing the #1 pick lottery very often. If you look at Super Bowl teams or teams that always make the playoffs, none of them have had a top 5 pick because of record, trades are different, but they are never terrible, they have average seasons, but if they miss the playoffs, they don’t say “lets just try new things, if it works, fine, if not, top 5 pick here we come.” The great organizations in this league don’t think like that.
Now I’m fine with Tebow starting, but we have to remember for decades coaches have used TC and practices to judge a players value on the team, then decided if they were starter worthy, and while I hope and think Tebow will be the best or close to the best of all our QB’s, if he is the worst QB we have on our roster, I don’t want him starting, plain and simple, starting your worst player at a position, after his teammates say two other guys beat him out, is a very fast way for a locker room to break apart.
This isn’t even about Tebow so much, I agree we should trade Orton because his value is high, I’m talking about how teams in general build long last success, and it’s not done by drafting top 5 for a couple years. Teams that have picked the most in the top 5 since 2000:
Detroit: 5 times
Cleveland: 4
Washington: 4
Houston: 3
Cincy: 3
Oakland: 3
Arizona: 3
St. Louis: 3
Tampa Bay: 3
Now outside of TB, none of those teams are strong teams, none of those teams are succeeding, or are ready to succeed long term. Those are average teams, teams that make the playoffs on occasion, either due to a weak division or schedule.
To become great, you don’t bottom feed for a few years.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by Topher Doll on May 10, 2011 12:03 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
I think Detroit
might actually be getting there. Of course I have a friend who is a Lions fan and he may be whispering the devils lies into my ears.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 10, 2011 12:49 PM MDT up reply actions
Oh yea
Teams like Detroit and Cleveland look improved, but because they’ve bottom fed for so long, their divisions have gotten stronger with each season without ever being really bad. While they may improve, the chance of them really going far is unlikely.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
That D L of theirs is going to be scary when they come to Denver in October.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 10, 2011 1:07 PM MDT up reply actions
I agree
I like Detroit, I just think their division is too tough to get into the playoffs, let alone win 10+ games. Also, if Stafford can’t get healthy, their offense could struggle again.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Stafford
is a huge if. He plays well, just cant stay healthy. Maybe they should have drafted O-Line.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 10, 2011 2:04 PM MDT up reply actions
I agree there
I think Fairly was a nice pick up, but they needed lineman on offense so much more. Maybe a FA or trade pick up though is what they plan, same situation as us with DT.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Fairly where they got him was just too tempting to pass up. I called my lions friend and told him the NFL should make them re-pick. It seems like cheating to have Suh and Fairly on the same roster.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 10, 2011 2:19 PM MDT up reply actions
Haha it's true
He’s hard to pass up, but they didn’t even address it later in the draft. reminds me of us at DT, but hey, there’s always, hopefully, FA and trades.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
whenever that starts...
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 10, 2011 2:30 PM MDT up reply actions
what's with Detroit and the DL?
Aren’t they supposed to be drafting more WRs?
Of course, Denver’s made a penchant of switching DCs, HCs, QBs, and even some WRs repeatedly for several years now. And then there’s the scheme changes. Ayers playing FB this year?
by cosBroncosFan on May 10, 2011 1:19 PM MDT up reply actions
LOL, not now that Millen is gone
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 10, 2011 1:41 PM MDT up reply actions
This
is the best point I have heard in the last couple of day:
Now I’m fine with Tebow starting, but we have to remember for decades coaches have used TC and practices to judge a players value on the team, then decided if they were starter worthy, and while I hope and think Tebow will be the best or close to the best of all our QB’s, if he is the worst QB we have on our roster, I don’t want him starting, plain and simple, starting your worst player at a position, after his teammates say two other guys beat him out, is a very fast way for a locker room to break apart.
I agree. Rec’d
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 10, 2011 12:52 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Wait Though...
your excellent debating skills threw me off message for a moment. While I agree with the value of the QB competition, I cannot totally agree with you. I think you have to take into account leadership and will to win. I still think even if he doesn’t win the QB competition outright I really think Tebow gives us the best chance to win (unless he regresses from last year). Shouldn’t the guy who has the leadership ability to get the team to rise to a higher level on offense and defense get the start?
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 10, 2011 1:16 PM MDT up reply actions
If Tebow cannot beat out Orton in TC,
I would think that does not bode well for his tangibles on the field.
Why not sit TT to see what “enraged” Tebow can do after another year of training, just like “enraged” Rodgers and “pissed-off” Brady turned into polished, finished products? Visualize Rodgers during on the sidelines years watching HoF Favre, stewing on “I know I’m better than that guy. I know I can do it! BRETT FAVRE”S got nothing on me gosh darn it!!" and a couple years later they’re Super Bowl champs. I thought Rodgers was extremely impressive in the Super Bowl.
by cosBroncosFan on May 10, 2011 1:41 PM MDT up reply actions
Because I kept Tebow in FF ;-)
I actually really did, purely as a gamble though. I just want what is best for the Broncos. EFX will figure out who to start I will support either. In my opinion it should be Tebow. I am in the end a Bronco fan so I will root for them no matter what.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 10, 2011 1:46 PM MDT up reply actions
I'm not saying, and have never said
Tebow has to win outright, if he’s competitive and is at a similar level as the other QB’s, Quinn or whomever we bring in, I’d start him, but if he’s the worst guy in camp, I wouldn’t start him, it shows favoritism to the other players, and since the players were at camp and saw two other QB’s beat him out, that won’t sit well in the locker room and huddle. Leadership matters, but if you are the worst at your position, not just QB, you shouldn’t get on the field because your leadership won’t overcome mistakes you make on the field. Also, I think all three of our current QB’s, not sure about if we bring in another QB, have shown they are leaders.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by Topher Doll on May 10, 2011 2:05 PM MDT up reply actions 3 recs
Fair Enough
I think we are in agreement for the most part, he really does have to at least be close to the competition. If he flat out gets beat then I say start the guy who earned it.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 10, 2011 2:09 PM MDT up reply actions
That's reasoning I like
I can understand wanting Tebow to start, I want that, but the moment a fans desire to see Tebow start overrules general logic, that bothers me. If it’s close and Tebow is just behind the other guy, start Tebow, but if he is clearly not the best guy, and it’s obvious, start the guy who earns it, because from a teammate stand point, if you saw a player be the best QB you had, and he doesn’t start, that might cause you to question the coach, and we don’t need that.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
I know where your frustration comes from.
I will be upset with people who freak out if Tebow doesn’t start. Bottom line, we have to trust the EFX to do what is best for the organization. I think it will end up being Tebow.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 10, 2011 2:43 PM MDT up reply actions
Exactly
Personally I want Tebow to start, but I trust Fox to do what’s best for the team.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
That's what you and I think is best
Fox knows much more then either of us combined, and if he disagrees with us, don’t get to upset.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
I hope so
But if it doesn’t happen, it will be a shrug my shoulders move.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Wow
When it comes down to it we are all really on the same page here.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 10, 2011 3:48 PM MDT up reply actions
I keep finding that I have more to say...
If Quinn stepped up and won the starting job, I would be happy. He had a lot of potential coming into the NFL. So if he maturated into a franchise guy I would be ecstatic. I just dont see it happening.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 10, 2011 2:13 PM MDT up reply actions
Come on Max. Teams that have drafted in the Top 10 since 2005 and really since 2005+ have gotten butt hurt by the absurd salaries paid to these top 10 picks. It is the reason #1 why the rookie wage scale will be a part of the next CBA.
Back in the 1990s, 1980s, 1970s, it was great to have a Top 10 pick. By 2000, it was damn expensive and just crushing if you missed because you put a huge amount of your cap space into a rookie that busted. It was the worst kind of investment. Just killed the Raiders and Lions as they kept drafting bust WRs, OTs, QBs and such.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
if Tebow cannot beat out Orton in TC then starting Tebow is a bad idea
and a bad excuse to trade Orton. Sorry to add to your nightmare McGeorge, but something obvious to this longtime Broncos fan is there are worse worst case scenarios.
by cosBroncosFan on May 10, 2011 12:47 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Man
If we trade Orton and if Tebow cannot beat out Quinn. I would be sad.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 10, 2011 1:03 PM MDT up reply actions
if we trade Orton because Tebow cannot beat him out how can that be a good thing for the Denver Broncos?
by cosBroncosFan on May 10, 2011 1:14 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
see my latest reply just above...
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 10, 2011 1:16 PM MDT up reply actions
we wont trade Orton because
Tebow cannot beat him out. He will be gone before training camp. We will be trading him because is value is still somewhat high, he is a FA next year so we would get nothing and he has a high salary this year.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 10, 2011 1:48 PM MDT up reply actions
so you think Tebow would beat out Orton in QB competition?
by cosBroncosFan on May 10, 2011 1:51 PM MDT up reply actions
I dont think it matters. I dont think Orton will be around. To answer your question, I dont know. It doesn’t always come down to a QB competition. Sometimes it comes down to who the org believes is the future of the franchise.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 10, 2011 2:01 PM MDT up reply actions
my answer
I think the only way TT beats out KO for the starting QB Denver Broncos is if KO is traded.
And sometimes it comes down to the fanbase wishing the potential future of the franchise was ready now, or that he was John Elway, when neither are truly important.
If the Denver Broncos offense is going to sputter in 2011, I’d prefer it happens with both KO and TT. I don’t give a gosh darn about the money or value.
by cosBroncosFan on May 10, 2011 2:24 PM MDT up reply actions
I don’t give a gosh darn about the money or value.
But the FO will care.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 10, 2011 2:27 PM MDT up reply actions
I guess I am hoping if they make a trade for Orton it will be at least partially because they have looked at what they have in Tebow and are confident is the guy. We have to many needs to carry Orton as a backup when he salary could bring in a couple of FA and get us an extra pick next year.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 10, 2011 2:33 PM MDT up reply actions
how much confidence would you have if it's unlikely he'd beat KO in QB competition?
by cosBroncosFan on May 10, 2011 2:41 PM MDT up reply actions
LOL
you just aren’t going to let that point go…
If EFX feel that it is the best decision, then yes I will be confident. Also, it is a big IF that it is unlikely that he would beat out KO. Kyle is steady as she goes but he is not exactly Tom Brady or even Joe Flacco.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 10, 2011 2:47 PM MDT up reply actions
and thank you
always good to learn from others opinions
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 11, 2011 3:08 PM MDT up reply actions
Man, you really don’t get this at all.
A worst case scenario that involves Denver drafting high enough to get Luck or Barkley in 2012 is not a bad thing at all.
I think Tebow will pan out, but if not, we want to be so bad that we can draft a franchise QB next year. Getting a franchise QB is the surest way to long term sustained success.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
i don't care about the Luck or Barkley sweepstakes; and they should draft (O|D)L in any case
last year’s team was a typical 8-8 Denver Broncos team going through a phase and ending up with 4 wins total. For example, I’m disappointed they never succeeded in transitioning to a 3-4 defense — simply because that was the big idea for a couple years there starting back with Shanahan and they seemingly could never pull it off. That’s disappointing.
I’m worried Tebow will never improve, that we’ll have mediocre results this year, and that we lower his ceiling by starting him this year. Everything about watching Tebow in the pros screams raw QB. For every crisp, beautiful pass play there’s one or two passes of similar difficulty (to another part of the field) where my unthinking, emotional reaction is: “why do the coaches, he, or the fans think he will ever make that pass in a pro game?” If Tebow is Mr. Exciting though Raw Limited QB he risks going from unknown quantity to novelty where it’s relatively easy to gameplan for him. To me there is no loss or risk whatsoever by retaining and starting KO in 2011. If Tebow isn’t demonstrating Elway-like passing ability, or cannot beat KO in QB competition, I absolutely would not start him in 2011.
by cosBroncosFan on May 10, 2011 8:53 PM MDT up reply actions
Case in point...
If Tebow isn’t demonstrating Elway-like passing ability… I absolutely would not start him in 2011.
… that Tebow is held to a higher standard than other Rookie/young developing QBs.
How can anyone expect Tebow, or any QB in his 2nd year, to already be developed to the point where he is demonstrating Elway-like passing ability?
Even Elway didn’t begin to demonstrate his
“Elway-like” passing ability until his 3rd year and it wasn’t until his 4th that he really came into his own.
Now, if you are referring to being Elway-like during John’s first 2 or 3 years, that’s a different story. If you will recall, Elway wasn’t exactly lighting up the passing game when he was a young, developing, QB.
Thru his first 3 seasons (all as a starter no less -which means he had a headstart on Tebow) his completion % hovered around 52 percent.
He threw more INTs than TDs his 1st and 3rd seasons (1st = 7 TDs / 14 INTs; 3rd = 22 TDs / 23 INTs) and his second year was close to the same – 18 TDs / 15 INTs (the 18 & 22 TDs are nice production though).
My point is, you can’t realistically expect Tebow to be demonstrating “Elway-like” passing at this point in his development.
What I would prefer to see is that Tebow does with the team what Elway did in his first 3 years – posting winning records and making the playoffs two of the three years (even the one season they missed the playoffs they went 11-5)
"It is our attitude at the beginning of a difficult task which, more than anything else, will affect its successful outcome." - William James
by FloridaFan62 on May 11, 2011 10:20 AM MDT up reply actions
That has been the problem here all along
Any QB instantly becomes tied to Elway and his accomplishments. I believe it is what did in Brian Griese.
Surprisingly QB’s like Plummer and Orton seem to get a bit of a pass on having to atain Elway like levels of play.
Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
by Sean in Pa. on May 11, 2011 11:40 AM MDT up reply actions
Ellipses? that wasn't what I said and doesn't represent what I mean
If Tebow isn’t demonstrating Elway-like passing ability, or cannot beat KO in QB competition, I absolutely would not start him in 2011.
I think TT is raw and his development will be better if he sits.
I don’t think TT’s passing game is as good as the other successful first- and second- year starters, but it’s better than the bad first- and second- year starters (whether they were first rounders or whatever). Apologies if you think I’m asserting some big defect in TT, but it’s just not the case. I’ve been consistent if you check my post history.
I’m from the SEC btw (Gamecocks).
by cosBroncosFan on May 11, 2011 12:05 PM MDT up reply actions
I used the ellipses to make it clear that I was omitting a part of your quote.
I agree with the part that if he cannot beat out Orton then he should not get the start, IMO.
But, yes, you did say that if Tebow “isn’t demonstrating Elway-like passing” that you “absolutely would not start him in 2011.” That statement may not “represent” the intent of your comment but you most certainly did say it.
On a different note, your Gamecocks seem to be up-and-coming and they put a whoopin’ on my Gators last year – ouch!
"It is our attitude at the beginning of a difficult task which, more than anything else, will affect its successful outcome." - William James
by FloridaFan62 on May 11, 2011 10:16 PM MDT up reply actions
I put greater stock in him going through a process to develop into a superior NFL QB than starting him now. But if that’s what the fanbase wants…?
Sometimes “The SC” gets lucky. South Carolina always has some excellent players but year-to-year the Gators have so much talent. It’s quite a challenge.
by cosBroncosFan on May 12, 2011 12:34 AM MDT up reply actions
Elway comparison
I would start John Elway again because the team then was threadbare terrible and Elway was instant offense where there previously hadn’t been any. It was all on Elway’s back.
But that was then, and now I’m hopeful the organization has matured, with the lessons of three Super Bowl losses then two Super Bowl wins (not to mention getting a good running game and decent defense being instrumental in the wins).
Elway had a shorter path to being an exceptional NFL passing quarterback. If TT can’t beat out the 2010 starter but you know he has talent, promise, and some learning/improving to do, why risk anything? If nothing else, why not tag-team him with KO, or throw him in sometime during the season if things are going poorly? I don’t want it all on Tebow’s back.
I already compared him to other current successful first- and second- year passing quarterbacks in an earlier response.
by cosBroncosFan on May 12, 2011 12:55 AM MDT up reply actions
Aikman started year one as well and went 1-15 his first year if I remember correctly
"Nothing in the world can take the place of Persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race." - Calvin Coolidge
by BroncoCanuck on May 10, 2011 12:04 AM MDT up reply actions
That's true
But he also greatly benefited from one of the best teams ever constructed around him. Aikman is one of the few people I feel doesn’t deserve to be in the Hall, or at least got in far to early. Aikman was the perfect game manager, sat back, made solid decisions all game, and made a big play ever couple of games. He could rely on the incredible talent around him to make plays and win games. I just watch some of the Aikman videos I had sitting around, VHS style, and he was a very safe, smart, note exciting QB. He just played solid, and had he not had the talent around him, we’ll I seriously doubt he would have succeed in the NFL. Aikman was a good QB who benefited greatly from good coaching and unbelievable talent.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by Topher Doll on May 10, 2011 12:13 AM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
Ouch
as a Cowboys fan and an Aikman fan and someone who watched nearly every game of his entire career, I must disagree. I think this is perhaps the most ridiculous statement I have ever read.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 10, 2011 8:12 AM MDT up reply actions
Aikman benefited from being able to throw a very accurate pass. He was a great QB on a great team.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
Accurate on a level most QB’s will never touch.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 10, 2011 9:35 AM MDT up reply actions
He was great
But only barely, if he was on this Broncos team last season, we’d be calling for him to be gone, he just wasn’t the type of guy who could carry a team. He’s accurate, plays smart and doesn’t make mistakes, sounds like a small step up from another QB on our roster. Aikman was a good QB, but he didn’t have game changing ability, you could shut him down in the passing game, and he hated mobility, he once said in a interview he would never leave the pocket if he could help it, it’s scary out there.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by Topher Doll on May 10, 2011 12:05 PM MDT up reply actions
well
lets just agree to disagree. Since this isn’t the Cowboys site a long debate wouldn’t really make sense anyways. I am biting my tongue, I have lots to say on the subject… Different time different place maybe.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 10, 2011 12:42 PM MDT up reply actions
Sounds good to me
Thanks for your thoughts.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by Topher Doll on May 10, 2011 12:46 PM MDT up reply actions
How does this remind you of Orton?
Quarterback Troy Aikman finished his collegiate career as the third rated passer in NCAA history. An All-America at UCLA, Aikman joined the Dallas Cowboys as the first overall pick in the 1989 NFL Draft. He became the first Dallas rookie quarterback to start a season opener since Roger Staubach in 1969. Although he showed great promise and threw for a rookie-record 379 yards in a game against the Phoenix Cardinals, the team finished 1-15. As the young quarterback improved, however, so too did the Cowboys’ record.
In 1990, Aikman completed 226 of 399 passes for 2,579 yards and 11 touchdowns – the team finished 7-9. The following year he completed an NFC-best 65.3 percent of his passes, and the Cowboys improved to 11-5 and advanced to the second round of the playoffs.
In 1992, in just his 52nd game, Aikman reached the 10,000-yard passing mark, and his 302 completions were second most in team history. That season also marked the end of Dallas’ odyssey from worst to first. With their high-powered offense and stingy defense, the 13-3 Cowboys swept through the 1992 NFL playoffs, scoring a combined total of 116 points in three games including a 52-17 victory over the Buffalo Bills in Super Bowl XXVII. Aikman’s 22 of 30 for 273 yards passing and four touchdowns earned him Super Bowl MVP honors.
Over the next three seasons, the Cowboys enjoyed three consecutive 12-4 records and victories in Super Bowls XXVIII and XXX. Aikman, wide receiver Michael Irvin, and running back Emmitt Smith delivered an offensive attack that opponents found nearly impossible to contain. When defenses focused on Irvin and/or Smith, Aikman would find tight end Jay Novacek or wide receiver Alvin Harper. In the 1994 NFC Divisional Playoff Game against the Green Bay Packers, Aikman completed 23 of 30 passes for 337 yards. Irvin, Novacek, and Harper, each had more than 100 yards receiving. Aikman’s 94-yard touchdown pass to Harper was the longest play from scrimmage in NFL post-season history at the time.
With 90 wins in the 1990s, Aikman became the winningest starting quarterback of any decade in NFL history. Unfortunately, during his final two seasons, injuries began to take a toll on the Dallas quarterback and the team’s winning ways. Finally, after the 2000 season, the Cowboys’ six-time Pro Bowl selection announced his retirement from football. His career statistics include 32,942 yards and 165 touchdowns for a passer rating of 81.6.Quarterback Troy Aikman finished his collegiate career as the third rated passer in NCAA history. An All-America at UCLA, Aikman joined the Dallas Cowboys as the first overall pick in the 1989 NFL Draft. He became the first Dallas rookie quarterback to start a season opener since Roger Staubach in 1969. Although he showed great promise and threw for a rookie-record 379 yards in a game against the Phoenix Cardinals, the team finished 1-15. As the young quarterback improved, however, so too did the Cowboys’ record.
In 1990, Aikman completed 226 of 399 passes for 2,579 yards and 11 touchdowns – the team finished 7-9. The following year he completed an NFC-best 65.3 percent of his passes, and the Cowboys improved to 11-5 and advanced to the second round of the playoffs.
In 1992, in just his 52nd game, Aikman reached the 10,000-yard passing mark, and his 302 completions were second most in team history. That season also marked the end of Dallas’ odyssey from worst to first. With their high-powered offense and stingy defense, the 13-3 Cowboys swept through the 1992 NFL playoffs, scoring a combined total of 116 points in three games including a 52-17 victory over the Buffalo Bills in Super Bowl XXVII. Aikman’s 22 of 30 for 273 yards passing and four touchdowns earned him Super Bowl MVP honors.
Over the next three seasons, the Cowboys enjoyed three consecutive 12-4 records and victories in Super Bowls XXVIII and XXX. Aikman, wide receiver Michael Irvin, and running back Emmitt Smith delivered an offensive attack that opponents found nearly impossible to contain. When defenses focused on Irvin and/or Smith, Aikman would find tight end Jay Novacek or wide receiver Alvin Harper. In the 1994 NFC Divisional Playoff Game against the Green Bay Packers, Aikman completed 23 of 30 passes for 337 yards. Irvin, Novacek, and Harper, each had more than 100 yards receiving. Aikman’s 94-yard touchdown pass to Harper was the longest play from scrimmage in NFL post-season history at the time.
With 90 wins in the 1990s, Aikman became the winningest starting quarterback of any decade in NFL history. Unfortunately, during his final two seasons, injuries began to take a toll on the Dallas quarterback and the team’s winning ways. Finally, after the 2000 season, the Cowboys’ six-time Pro Bowl selection announced his retirement from football. His career statistics include 32,942 yards and 165 touchdowns for a passer rating of 81.6.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
by McGeorge on May 10, 2011 3:08 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Um McG, why are you continuing this?
I’m done with this topic, I have no idea why you are obsessed with Orton, who has nothing to do with our conversation, and why do you want to keep arguing?
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
I know your done because you lost. I’d be done too if I were you. Why fight a losing battle.
But try to say something that makes sense next time. Your Aikman take is nonsense.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
Sigh, stuff like this is just silly
This wasn’t a competition, at least not to me, you didn’t change my opinion on the matter, and I wasn’t going to change yours. So why waste yours or my time. I’m not a fan of just arguing for arguing sake.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
I don't think I have
That’s why I said opinion.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
I used to think Jarvis Moss was a good pick and he’s be a great player for us. That was my opinion way back when. Turned out my opinion was crap.
Just like yours regarding Aikman.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
I think ranking of top QB's
Is one of the most opinionated topics out there. Go to all 32 SB Nation sites for NFL and ask them to list their top 50 NFL QB’s, they are all going to be very different. Elway will move up and down, so will Aikman. He’ll make top 50, but it might be lower then yours is all.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Who cares where he is on the list of Top 50 QBs of all time. Don’t you see, it’s the list itself that matters.
It’s like saying you date a beauty pageant contestant from Miss America.
I don’t care if she won or got 29th place.. Dude, you date a woman that was up for Miss America… Awesome for you.
Get my point?
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
Yea, because I think we have the same point
I never said Aikman was a bad QB, I would just rank him lower than you would on a list of top QB’s.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
No, much higher then Orton
What does Orton have to do with this conversation anyways?
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Your opinion that we’d be calling for Aikman’s head if he were the qb for the Broncos last season. Sorry man, that’s silly hyperbole.
A lot of us have a problem with Orton because of what he showed on the field, not because of bad OL play or bad defense.
It's largely true
Manning, one of the best “do it yourself” QB’s ever, won only 6 games with a defense of similar ability. Aikman, a great QB, but no where near Manning’s level, could not likely have won many more games.
Orton wasn’t part of this conversation, people seem to like to bring him up. My point was in relation to the Broncos team as a whole and Aikman. I know it’s fun to bring Orton into any conversation, but it had nothing to do here.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
yes it did
You said just above that people would be calling for Aikman’s head if he quarterbacked our team last season. Saying that statement has nothing to do with Orton is just playing dumb. Moralizing about someone else injecting Orton into the conversation when you are the one who did it is mean-spirited.
It doesn't have to do with Orton
Because it’s true, just about any QB who was a QB on our team last year, Orton, Aikman, anyone would have had fans calling for his head, because, as has been stated a number of times by some fans, any QB of a 4-12 team deserves to be gone. I don’t believe that, but there are enough fans that do to make some noise.
I know for many fans it’s “Orton,
Orton, Orton” but it’s not. I mean, especially on this site. I could say “Man our offensive line struggled in 2010, especially on the right side” and it would be “Orton’s a statue!” Or “Moreno improved as the season went on, but our running game overall struggled” to which someone would reply “It sucked because Orton could play worth crap!”
Orton struggled last season, I want him traded, and think we are better off with Tebow, but come on, some fans here will turn just about anything into Orton vs. Tebow Round 973.
Also, this side thread is too small to really keep a conversation going. I disagree and you disagree, and neither of us are likely to change, so lets just agree to disagree. Thanks for your thoughts.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by Topher Doll on May 10, 2011 4:40 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
LOL
You know you just got PWNED Max…cmon. Cry just a little for him! :P
"Bombs dropping down overhead. Underground. It's instilled to want to live." -EV
Nah, I don't really feel PWNED
Since it’s a matter of opinion on where Aikman ranks among the best QB’s in league history. I’m not ignorant of Aikman and what he could do, I just don’t think as highly of him as others do I suppose.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
That was me laughing at the whole thing and poking fun
I know where you are coming from and for what it is worth, I concur…Aikmen being a HOF is more about the team he had around him and less about his abilities.
"Bombs dropping down overhead. Underground. It's instilled to want to live." -EV
Thanks
reading that actually gave me goose bumps. Love that guy.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 10, 2011 3:14 PM MDT up reply actions
agree with Max completely
Over the next three seasons, the Cowboys enjoyed three consecutive 12-4 records and victories in Super Bowls XXVIII and XXX. Aikman, wide receiver Michael Irvin, and running back Emmitt Smith delivered an offensive attack that opponents found nearly impossible to contain. When defenses focused on Irvin and/or Smith, Aikman would find tight end Jay Novacek or wide receiver Alvin Harper.
Aikman was a very good QB… no one is denying that. But IMO he was SB-winner and dominant because of the talent surrounding him, not because he was carrying the team. On a mediocre team, his areas of excellence would’ve have made him much more Orton-like than Elway-like. His talents just were ideally suited for distributing the ball to other HOF caliber players on his team like Smith, Irvin, Novacek, etc… and he could do that ebcause he also played behind a dominant oline.
Others can disagree, but simply listing his accomplishments doesn’t do anything to address max’s statement… we all know he was really successful… we just disagree on why.
Shame on you Max
What the hell you talking about Max. Aikman was a #1 overall pick. Drafted to be a franchise QB, which he was winning 3 Super Bowls and being inducted into the Hall of Fame. Guess everyone is just stupid who put Troy in the HOF because he didn’t pass the Max test of greatness (which is some bizarre combination of stats and opinion).
Aikman > Orton. And not slightly as you suggest. That was a stupid statement Max.
Something tells my Kyle won’t ever have either of those two accomplishments attached to his name.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
Orton, who cares about him
I didn’t bring him up, I know it’s popular to do, but this has nothing to do with him. Please watch Troy play and look at his numbers, not one or the other, do both, Aikman was the perfect game manager. He was accurate, smart and made good decisions.
As for the Hall, I seriously doubt everyone in the Hall deserves to get in, and I’m sure plenty of fans here would agree with me. Aikman may have deserved to get in on his play, his Rings are the thing that got him in. Put Aikman on a weaker team, I doubt he wins any Super Bowls and doesn’t get in. That’s true about some other QBs.
Ya know what, this isn’t going anywhere with you, so thanks for your thoughts.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Put on a weaker team, I doubt Joe Montana wins any Super Bowls. Put on a better team, I bet Matt Hassleback wins a few.
We are not talking about what ifs. Aikman didn’t barely make the HOF. He was first ballot for goodness sakes.
You way of conceding defeat is funny. But I see thru it.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
I'm not conceding defeat
I disagree, which is allowed, but I don’t want to argue, sorry if that bothers you.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
1+1=2.
You may disagree with the statement above, but its not an opinion.
Same stuff with Aikman. He’s got enough to prove out his greatness. It’s etched in stone.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
Some people consider Marino
one of the greatest QB’s of all time. He has all kinds of records. I think he was just an irritation that took some of the glitz and limelight away from the real greatest of all time Elway. Subjective opinion. Many would argue against me, but probably not here.
Truth is subjective.
Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
by Sean in Pa. on May 10, 2011 4:18 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Aikman?
Injury prone, concussion magnet, irritating comentator (Buck/Aikman = bad football)
He was on teams that were full of talent. That era Cowboys teams were all about paying for championships and Aikman benefited ending up looking like a much better player than he should ever have been…
Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
Respect his statauthority
You can be dumb... that's ok! There are many dumb people.
You can be an a$$hole... that's ok! There are many of these as well.
Unfortunately you cannot be both...
Ok... prove me wrong.
Wait what do stats have to do with telling him to avoid and argument?
Or are you just instigating again? I can never tell with you.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Why do you have to tell anyone in this blog to do or not do anything (unless it is flag worthy)? I think Grind might have been right about your tone.
You can be dumb... that's ok! There are many dumb people.
You can be an a$$hole... that's ok! There are many of these as well.
Unfortunately you cannot be both...
Ok... prove me wrong.
Max
was trying to stop a round and round with McG and I jumped in. He is ok, and I was asking for it.
Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
Tone on the internet means nothing
Since it’s just words on a page, you can make them sound however you want in your head. I was trying to stop an argument, I’m sorry if that bothers you.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
This is wrong and you know it.
You can be dumb... that's ok! There are many dumb people.
You can be an a$$hole... that's ok! There are many of these as well.
Unfortunately you cannot be both...
Ok... prove me wrong.
by BeachBronco on May 14, 2011 10:36 AM MDT up reply actions
No, it's not
If you think telling someone to step away from an argument is starting an argument, you really need to get your head checked. Sean figured it out, most people know the difference between starting and ending an argument.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by Topher Doll on May 14, 2011 12:07 PM MDT up reply actions
^Tone^
If you can’t tell what I was referring to you need to get your head checked.
You can be dumb... that's ok! There are many dumb people.
You can be an a$$hole... that's ok! There are many of these as well.
Unfortunately you cannot be both...
Ok... prove me wrong.
by BeachBronco on May 14, 2011 12:15 PM MDT up reply actions
Tone on the internet is relative
I think that was established long ago in the Great Message Board Meeting of 2001.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by Topher Doll on May 14, 2011 12:30 PM MDT up reply actions
I am not the only poster to point this out about your tone and rhetoric.
Hide behind your text if you must, however your motives are pretty transparent.
You can be dumb... that's ok! There are many dumb people.
You can be an a$$hole... that's ok! There are many of these as well.
Unfortunately you cannot be both...
Ok... prove me wrong.
by BeachBronco on May 14, 2011 12:36 PM MDT up reply actions
I think it's mostly you
And Grind_core most of the rest of the site doesn’t have an issue with my “tone.” People have issues with my opinion, but not many people complain about tone. I mean really, tone, on the internet, well hey, not much I can do about how you interpret what I say into your brain.
Thanks for your thoughts.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by Topher Doll on May 14, 2011 12:46 PM MDT up reply actions
your welcome
You can be dumb... that's ok! There are many dumb people.
You can be an a$$hole... that's ok! There are many of these as well.
Unfortunately you cannot be both...
Ok... prove me wrong.
by BeachBronco on May 14, 2011 12:48 PM MDT up reply actions
LOL
I couldn’t help myself. Just pointing out that there are many ways of looking at things.
Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
Thanks Man!
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 10, 2011 9:42 PM MDT up reply actions
i wouldn't say irritating
so much as horribly incredibly dry and over the top unnecessarily boring. … but that’s probably nitpicking…
I'm not sugarcoating this.
well, you know what i’m saying. i like baseball and joe buck is fine for that but he brings the exact same announcing style to football. only thing worse would be having a golf announcer take his talents to the NFL. (“whisper whisper and that’s in the endzone whisper…”) … actually, that’s kind of funny. maybe they should try that next…
I'm not sugarcoating this.
1989 - Aikman drafted #1 by Dallas Cowboys. 1989 - the infamous HWT
I think Troy Aikman deserves to be in the NFL Hall of Fame, but also believe there’s a bias in the HOF for players who won Super Bowls. I don’t know how Alex Smith would be doing in a different system with more talent around him. Why is the stated opinion controversial? It’s not the first time I’ve heard it.
by cosBroncosFan on May 10, 2011 9:33 PM MDT up reply actions
Remember when...
they used to develop running backs as well? The trend is moving towards more and more players starting immediately, and from what I have seen it is not hurting the game or the careers of the players.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 9, 2011 10:55 AM MDT up reply actions
Man, post like this make NO sense...
- You dont wnat him to be a running QB when his mobility is one of his greatest strengths?
- Who gives a crap what Brady and Rodgers say. They are not Tebow. Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco both benefited from starting.
- All your proof starts with “I think”…its is just as much conjecture and brings no real arguments, only opinion.
- The coaches are stupid if they want him as a pocket passer only…that shuts down a MAJOR part of his game.
FIRE DE MAURICE SMITH...he can go suck dog balls for all I care!
NFLPA??? National Fools and Lame Pricks Association!
ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT WE HAVE IN TEBOW? Watching Kyle orton is like watching re-runs of the Brady Bunch...you always know whats going to happen and makes you feel sick at the end!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
But it fits Tebow into the small box of what the MSM has told us it takes to be a franchise QB. This means no mobility other than pocket mobility, pocket passing only, accurate, tall and polished. Just like Big Ben, Eli Manning, Elway, Vick and Farve.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
and Steve Young, Aaron Rodgers, Steve McNair, Drew Brees...
Great work McG. The statue in the pocket is no longer a viable model for most teams. When you have the right guy and the right supporting cast like Brady and P. Manning it looks so good, but when you have the wrong guy and the wrong supporting cast it looks like Orton and Bledsoe and it is not pretty.
Its kind of like the discussion in the NBA about the importance of a dominant center. Sure having Dwight Howard or Shaq (in his prime) is great but there are only one or two of those guys in the league at any given time. If you don’t have that guy, then you have to try to win another way. It is pointless to trot out Z. Ilgauskas and pretend that you’re going to run your offense through him. This is what we’ve been doing with Orton. It’s not his fault, but we need to move on.
Oh, you were finished? Oh, well, allow me to retort!
--Jules Winnfield
by GrizBronc on May 9, 2011 9:23 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
proof?
- Mobile QB = great for either NFL or college
- Running QB = great for college, questionable tactic at best for NFL. Also implies “can’t pass”. Running QB is a liability, because he’s going to take hits like a running back, and defenses will gameplan for it. Didn’t TT get hit while rushing in the Cincy preseason game and hurt as a result?
Oh, and my conjecture? We’ll see how weak my argument now proves to be later during the regular seasons. If he does not improve the variety of throws he can make all over the field I think it’s going to be tough for the Broncos to have a passing game. But at least you hyped him up no matter what, eh?
by cosBroncosFan on May 9, 2011 9:17 AM MDT up reply actions
It almost sounds like you will be rooting against Tim...
…If being right makes you feel better…
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
It’s a fine line to walk. Not easy. I was accused of the same thing with McDaniels more than once. But McDaniels gave me far more reasonable ammo to hate him than Tim has ever given a Bronco fan to feel the same way.
Seriously, where has Tim disappointed?
With McD, pretty much since day one with the Cutler fiasco and how that was handled, Denver was already a laughing stock… And there was so much other controversy that followed Josh around.
By contrast, Tebow’s rookie year was a pleasant surprise to even his harshest critics (like Kiper and Colin Cowterd).
Sometimes… Haters just gonna hate.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
a lot of people had high hopes a year ago
and I don’t begrudge them their optimism at the time. We were going to be over .500 and compete for the AFC West title iirc.
by cosBroncosFan on May 9, 2011 10:05 AM MDT up reply actions
Well I wasn’t one of those guys.
Tebow impressed in year 1. He exceeded the expectations of almost everyone.
On the other hand, McD really struggled in year 1 with several issues and our season fell apart.
You can’t compare the two, even if you are trying… You’re failing.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
maybe i'm failing because i'm not? lol
by cosBroncosFan on May 9, 2011 10:12 AM MDT up reply actions
I will be watching to see whether he can make a variety of passes
…and doesn’t have a limited playbook. How about you?
by cosBroncosFan on May 9, 2011 10:01 AM MDT up reply actions
I don’t give a shit if he can make one pass over and over or all 250 passes required by the NFL.
Does his offense score points, do it consistently and for an entire season? That is all that matters for an NFL QB. The NFL is not a beauty contest, even if the MSM wants it to be.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
you said "tragic flaws"
was it sarcasm or do you believe it?
by cosBroncosFan on May 9, 2011 10:14 AM MDT up reply actions
What are Tim’s tragic flaws that can’t be overcome?
With Orton, it’s lack of athletic ability, lack of a top shelf arm, his many injuries and his W/L record in Denver. Mainly the first three issues.
Those can’t be overcome. They are what they are and they limit his ceiling as a player.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
no, that's enough for me. i said i disagreed and described how
it’s your argument, not mine
by cosBroncosFan on May 9, 2011 10:27 AM MDT up reply actions
No you didn’t. You just made a bunch of BS blanket statements about running QBs, Tom Brady and possible future game planning. So you did manage to describe some nebulous and questionable concepts we can’t apply to your sample size of two and some future what ifs. I have no idea how to respond to such undeveloped thoughts other than to say..
Did you even watch the Tebow games?
He threw several bombs, several screens, several 10+ yard roll out passes, several QB running plays and several simple three step drop passes. Oh, and we actually moved the ball and scored, unlike Orton and his 476 yard passing games that amounted to 13 total Bronco points in a large loss to Indy… Yipee.
Also, the game plan vs Oakland was dumbed down more so than the one vs San Diego as Tebow and the coaching staff opened things up as each learned more about the other. That shouldn’t be a thing that "makes you go hum"? It’s just common sense applied to logic.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
I want Tim to be able to pass the ball all over the field
and to the extent he that he cannot or doesn’t do this, I believe the Broncos will lose. To me this criteria applies to each of the QBs the Broncos have had since Craig Morton.
by cosBroncosFan on May 9, 2011 10:42 AM MDT up reply actions
Denver needs to score more points and score enough points to win games. If Tebow can do that, it doesn’t matter if he is passing the ball all over the field or not.
It’s not his job to fulfill your fantasy about some run and shoot passing game or what not. Offense is about scoring, not yard accumulation or exotic passing schemes.
Of course, the point you’re not making, but should, is that Denver will have a better chance to score points if Tebow can make more throws and be accurate. To that end, you are correct. Tebow will need to prove he can guide a successful passing game over the course of a season. Teams adjust and will take away what they can (like the screen game), but that will open holes in the seems and deep. If Tebow can take advantage of the weaknesses in our opponents game plans, then he should be the QB regardless of YOUR criteria.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
probably still in 7th place
I appreciate the calculation in your response because it’s funny (i.e. to quote: “Okay.”)
But will teams want to make Tebow’s passing beat them, and will there be any other offense (e.g. running game a la Terrell Davis) to threaten them? How will teams like Oakland, San Diego, and Kansas City match up when playing Denver?
by cosBroncosFan on May 9, 2011 12:57 PM MDT up reply actions
The beauty of Tebow is that he has shown ability to throw deep, throw screens, throw on the run and run for 1st downs and TDs.
That’s a weird set of proficiencies. You can defend against one, but not both or all three.
If you blitz Tebow, he’ll murder you with the screen game (the #1 reason I want to sign Sproles) or he’ll take off running and you won’t have the LBs or S to make the tackle.
If you sit back and give him time to throw, then he can make plays will his legs either by moving around in the pocket, running or throwing on the run. Plus, I like the concept of Tebow having a lot of time in the pocket to learn.
There is no defense that defends the short passing attack and takes away the deep pass (unless you try a Wink and play 13 guys, 12 guys or 9 guys per play) as we tired several times last season.
Me thinks our opponents will take away the screen game and monitor Tebow’s running ability. They’ll make him a pocket passer. But that doesn’t work great when you have a good pass blocking O-line (Denver does) and it means he’ll be able to throw deep. It would help if we retained Ryan Harris for this since he and Clady can keep DEs off Tebow for longer than most sets of tackles.
It is without question that Tebow is harder to game plan for since he has a more diverse skill set than Orton. Just pressure him and make him make plays with his feet. He can’t. And he’s too risk adverse to make risking passes with pressure in his face. He’ll just throw it away. 3rd and 9 coming up.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
would you agree the Denver OL has a lot to prove after last year, nevermind anything else?
by cosBroncosFan on May 9, 2011 1:15 PM MDT up reply actions
No. Denver’s O-line has a massive amount of improvement to make in the running game.
Their pass blocking was fine.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
What if Harris is gone?
You argue Franklin is no good at RT and no question Beadles disappointed in that role. And that is Tebow’s blind side
Yep. I hated the Franklin pick…
If he gets Tebow hurt next season, some scout should lose his job and his left arm.
I think we’re screwed at RT next year.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
we could still resign Harris
that and Beadles will have a year of NFL experience under his belt. Beadles was a superb OT in a pass happy college offense. His failings last year were mainly in the run game where he all-too-often got pushed into the backfield – ala Wiegman.
by DE_BroncoFan on May 10, 2011 12:05 PM MDT up reply actions
Go back and watch the Jacksonville and Tennessee games. Beadles was toasted in pass block.
Guy was a rookie and all, but he looked woeful at RT. Again, unless we keep Harris, I think we’re screwed at RT in 2011.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
I really believe we will hang on to Harris.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 10, 2011 3:55 PM MDT up reply actions
depends entirely on the league
we already tendered him, so we are trying to keep him. But, like ORton, that tender runs out in a year.
On Franklin, I believe that if he gets a solid year of training in an NFl strength program like Denver’s as well as some developmental time on the squad, then he can be a starting guard or make-do tackle. If he starts out of the gate as a rookie RT, that side of our line will struggle….again.
Best case scenario, Harris plays and then leaves in free agency in 2012, and a more developed Franklin steps in at RT to compete with some more added players, or even Harris.
And of course, if there is no NFL in 2011, that has pluses and minuses for both the worst and best case scenario….
Change your opinions, keep to your principles; change your leaves, keep intact your roots.
by Jeremy Bolander on May 12, 2011 9:32 PM MDT up reply actions
I wish I could go back and watch the games
considering those two actually had some bright spots. I haven’t ponied up the dough for the NFL rewind (or whatever it’s called) that would allow me to do film study.
In his defense Jacksonville was his first NFL start, so I’m inclined to give him some leeway on that game. By his fourth game he should have adjusted to the NFL game speed, so it is much harder to explain that one away.
by DE_BroncoFan on May 11, 2011 6:34 AM MDT up reply actions
By his fourth game he should have adjusted to the NFL game speed, so it is much harder to explain that one away.
Those are some really high expectations.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 11, 2011 7:00 AM MDT up reply actions
I tend to have high expectations for lineman
drafted in the first and second round. Maybe I’m just spoiled by Clady.
by DE_BroncoFan on May 12, 2011 11:44 AM MDT up reply actions
err..
Would you agree the Denver OL has a lot to prove specifically with regards to pass protection, aside from anything else?
by cosBroncosFan on May 9, 2011 1:15 PM MDT up reply actions
No. I would completely disagree. Orton took a bunch of sacks that were entirely his fault last season. Sacks 95% of other starting QBs would have avoided. We have better than average pass blocking.
Our O-line has a huge burden to prove they can run block, because they were awful the last few years in McD’s sorry excuse for a running scheme. That is where we are garbage.
You and I are not watching the same Bronco team. And I know I’m watching Denver on Sunday.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
Funny you should say that
It’s not his job to fulfill your fantasy about some run and shoot passing game or what not. Offense is about scoring, not yard accumulation or exotic passing schemes.
I actually chose Tebow as my keeper in FF. He did very well for me the last few games of last year. The reason? He scores! That’s all he needs to do for me, and that’s all he needs to do for the Broncos. Stats are garbage without TD’s. That is the difference between having Tebow on the field vs Orton.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
Tebow isn’t a running QB any more than Newton is a running QB. They are just QBs than can run. But both guys threw a ton of balls in college (esp Tebow).
Tebow is a mobile QB, where as Payton Manning is not.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
i was responding to other poster
that running QB and mobile QB are not the same things. Ben Roethlisberger is a mobile QB and it serves him well.
by cosBroncosFan on May 9, 2011 10:11 AM MDT up reply actions
Please to define?
Where would you draw the line between a “mobile” QB and a “running” QB and then show how Tebow clearly fits into the “running” category.
And since you’ve already conceded that a “mobile” QB (a la Roethlisberger) can succeed in the NFL, you must show that Tebow CLEARLY is a “running” QB. Your quote:
Until he can demonstrate tangibles of a playoff-caliber, non-running QB to the coaches, it’s not worth throwing him out there with fingers crossed that he’ll get better over time
So if you cannot prove that Tebow CLEARLY is a “running” QB we can just look to his mobility (those “tangibles of a playoff-caliber… QB”) as showing it’s worth throwing him into the fire.
Merely having an open mind is nothing: the object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid. -- G. K. Chesterton
Orton in 2010, Tebow in 2011, Super Bowl in 2012! Then the world ends, so who gives a frack what happens next.
by Sharpe as a Tack on May 9, 2011 1:54 PM MDT up reply actions
i am willing to concede other definitions if it matters to you
- A running quarterback rushes as part of the offense, instead of a last resort where he’s already determined he’s not going to get his ass kicked by trying to gain positive yards moving his legs and advancing his body across the line of scrimmage. A running quarterback is an additional RB. In college they run option QB plays.
- A mobile quarterback avoids the rush by moving around, might execute designed rollouts, and buys time for the receivers to get into their patterns and/or away from defenders.
If you think Tebow is not a running quarterback that’s fine with me. I saw way too many QB draws and QB runs instead of passes. But maybe you’re right instead.
by cosBroncosFan on May 9, 2011 2:19 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Great Post McG
agree on every single point. I haven’t read the comments yet, I am sure they are interesting.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
I said it’s a no brainer and it is.
You can take the other side of the coin, but you don’t have much to stand on. Orton’s time as a Denver Bronco has past.
Fortunately for him, his time to be an NFL starter has not… Just won’t be in Denver. Unlike McDaniels and Cutler whom I very much hope fail miserably, I wish Kyle the best of luck.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
couldn't have said it better.
nice work on reminding MHR that it’s just football. a lot can be gleaned from the much affronted ‘eye test’, even without data sheets and baseball-type statistics. the things tebow has to work on are absurdly overstated compared to other rookies or one year guys. yes, he HAS to get better and faster at breaking down defenses. who doesn’t? is bradford there already? (A: nope.)
btw, i think the broncos FO has known that tebow is the starter all along. tebow knows too.
I'm not sugarcoating this.
“btw, i think the broncos FO has known that tebow is the starter all along. tebow knows too.”
Yep…. And that is all that really matters. I’m 97% certain Orton will be traded before Sept.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
Trade Orton for a starter.
If a team is getting a starter we should to. Draft picks are way to hit or miss (unless you’re Big Billy B). We should attempt to trade for a starting DT.
Von Dooooooooom.
Such a deal is too rare. Getting value exactly where you need it by giving away value.
Just give me draft picks (hit or miss). 2011 WILL NOT BE A GOOD SEASON for Denver. Might as well plan for a better 2012.
You never know when that 2nd round pick turns into a Clinton Portis, DeSean Jackson or Darren Sharper, but it happens every year. Sure there are busts, but there are also HOF talents to be had in round 2.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
You’re right, as usual, but I can dream right?
We won’t be good in 2011, but we should still get any pieces we can so we’re good in 2012. I think Denver fans are starting to accept that we’re now rebuilding BUT they won’t have the patience to rebuild until 2014. We need to be competing for the division again in 2012 (a tall order).
Not impossible, but not likely either.
Von Dooooooooom.
“We need to be competing for the division again in 2012 (a tall order).”
No it’s not. Two good drafts and Tebow panning out will have us in contention in 2012.
We were poorly coached and unlucky with injuries in 2010. Get better coaching and not such awful luck with injuries and we’ll improve.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
I agree
We will be competing in 2012. I think we will be noticeably improved this year as well. Not a playoff team but we can give our AFC West opponents hell!
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 9, 2011 10:42 AM MDT up reply actions
“Two good drafts and Tebow panning out will have us in contention in 2012.”
You’re making my point for me. Two good drafts is a tall order for this organization and until they prove otherwise I am reserving judgement. Tebow panning out is less so, but still.
I should have clarified. It’s a tall order for this organization.
Von Dooooooooom.
Lots of teams can draft well when you pick at the top of every round… I find it funny that this is not taken into consideration when MSM grades drafts.
It’s like giving saying Buffalo did well to get Dareus and Williams with their 1st two picks because they got two 1st round value players.
No kidding, they picked at #3 and #34.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
That is true.
However with several high picks in the last few years we’ve seemed to botch them something fierce.
Ayers and Moreno are both (after me giving them two years) utter disappointments based on their draft status. To think we could have had Orakpo or Matthews (which I would take over both of them) AND another pick makes me sick to my stomach.
I’m just not giving any credit until credit is due. With your scathing review of the Franklin pick I’m a bit put off already. Plus the fact that we skipped over Marvin Austin when he was extremely high on most pundits boards and we desperately needed a DT.
Don’t get me wrong. I like most of the picks and I am optimistic, but addressing safety over DT is lunacy considering Champ plans on moving to safety in a year or two.
Von Dooooooooom.
Don’t make me cry. I’m still disgusted we didn’t draft a DT. It IS such a glaring need. Yes we needed LBs too, but not in a ratio of three to zero.
It’s not like we are without a LS here. We don’t have any starting caliber DTs on our roster and no young guys ready to make the jump.
Lunacy…
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
I think Ayers and Moreno are key
you say they are disappointments and I will give you that. However, towards the end of the season the running game was showing signs of life. Ayers moves to a more natural position, we need him to impress. I think he will. If these two players don’t pan out then we may be further out than I want to think.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
I like them both, but they haven’t lived up to their draft status. That isn’t their fault.
I don’t blame them. Its not like they went all Jamarcus Russel up in this piece. They are just the unlucky players who an ignorant GM reached for and expected them to perform at that level.
Von Dooooooooom.
they dont have to live up to their draft status
for them to be productive members of our team.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 10, 2011 11:24 AM MDT up reply actions
When you pick that high you can’t afford to miss. You need more than productive members of the team. You need above average starters in the least.
Von Dooooooooom.
right but
we cannot go back and change that draft. I am hoping that we get some decent production and I dont think they are total loss. They are just an example of McD being not so great at the draft.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 10, 2011 1:18 PM MDT up reply actions
sorry
I haven’t managed to throw up all of the kool-aid yet.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 10, 2011 9:45 PM MDT up reply actions
I hope this is true..
however just curious, what is your reasoning behind:
"btw, i think the broncos FO has known that tebow is the starter all along. tebow knows too."
I would definitely like to believe this and I dont necessarily doubt it, I am just curious what cues you are reading this from. I guess this question may have already been answered by the post itself and the logic used to create it. When thought of in terms of this posts logic it is kind of a no brainer.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 9, 2011 10:39 AM MDT up reply actions
Just for the sake of argument, here's a list of Pro Bowl QBs in the past few years...
2005:
Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Donovan McNabb, Daunte Culpepper, Michael Vick
2006: Peyton Manning, Trent Green, Steve McNair, Matt Hasselbeck, Jake Delhomme, Michael Vick
2007: Peyton Manning, Carson Palmer, Vince Young, Phillip Rivers, Drew Brees, Marc Bulger, Tony Romo
2008: Peyton Manning, Brett Favre, Jay Cutler, Drew Brees, Kerry Collins, Eli Manning, Kurt Warner
2009: Peyton Manning, Philip Rivers, Matt Schaub, Vince Young, David Garrard, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Brett Favre, Donovan McNabb, Aaron Rodgers, Tony Romo
2010: Peyton Manning, Philip Rivers, Matt Cassel, Matt Ryan, Drew Brees, Michael Vick
What do we take from this? Well, first and foremost, Peyton Manning is really freaking good — the best in the game at his position bar none. What’s more important though, is that there is a healthy mixture of quarterbacks who started right away and who sat on the bench to learn.
I know i’m going to sound all politically correct saying this, but there is no one track to success in terms of quarterbacks. There’s no mold to follow, it’s on a per-player basis. It’s impossible, repeat that, impossible to determine whether Tebow will succeed or not if he’s tossed out to start this year. None of us know, and history isn’t much of an indicator here. There’s rarely been a player that works as hard as Tebow does at the quarterback position. If he were a run-of-the-mill type guy that doesn’t work too little OR too hard, then I’d say he should sit another season to learn. However, that’s not the case. Tebow, most likely, is a lot further along in his playbook than any of us even know.
And I know this is common sense, but it seems to be evading the conversation right now, but wasn’t 2010 Tebow’s rookie year? Did he not sit the vast majority of the year? When he started the last three games, I loved what I saw. He charged up the players around him in a way Orton hadn’t done in two full seasons as a starter.
27--29--11 May all your spirits rest in peace.
by Joe Medina on May 9, 2011 10:26 AM MDT reply actions 9 recs
It seems to me that many of...
the QB’s that fail when “thrown out there” are ones that dont have a very thick skin. It is hard to say that they would have succeeded whether given bench time or not. It is very easy to make the point that QB’s can and do succeed when they start early in their careers. It is impossible to prove the argument that sitting has any positive effect on the ultimate outcome. You are absolutely correct that:
“It’s impossible, repeat that, impossible to determine whether Tebow will succeed or not if he’s tossed out to start this year.”
I think the intangibles are what really determines who will or wont succeed at a high level.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 9, 2011 10:52 AM MDT up reply actions
I think you're absolutely right.
Tim Tebow has a thick skin, and anyone who thinks otherwise has their head in the sand.
I’ve said all along that if Tebow doesn’t succeed, it won’t be for lack of effort or because he can’t handle the pressure.
27--29--11 May all your spirits rest in peace.
yeah
they gotta start the dude he wont let the mistakes get to him. That alone rules out ANY reasonable argument against it.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 9, 2011 11:00 AM MDT up reply actions
Agreed
No need to bash Kyle, he is a good guy and a good player. But, like you said, his time in Denver has probably passed. I share your sentiments on Quinn. I know he was awful in the pre-season last year, but he has the physical ability and has proven once or twice before that he can be a competent NFL quarterback, and he is capable of moving the chains with his arm and legs too.
follow me on Twitter!!: @MHR_Sayre and @BigTenBlogger
Also, if you ever want to lose at Madden or NBA 2k games, you can find me on XBOX at SayreB111589
Good post McGeorge
I just can’t wrap my head around these dude’s that are clamoring for Orton to start another year. Chances are we won’t crack the .500 mark this year so I’d much rather see what Tebow brings and watch our defense improve. I do like the notion of seeing what Tebow can do and possibly draft his replacement next year if he doesn’t look like the long term answer. With that being said, there is no way in hell we’ll be bad enough to be in the running for Luck. Maybe Landry Jones, Barkley or Kellen Moore.
Even if our defense is historically bad, Tebow can win at least 4 games by himself I have no doubt.
"Vegetarians are cool. All I eat are vegetarians - except for the occasional mountain lion steak "
Ted Nugent
Dang it. Kellen Moore was the name I wanted, not Kellen Clemmons.
Thanks for the fix. Sorry for ripping on your boy from Boise St, but he is next year’s Christian Ponder.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
Let's make this clear
Kellen Moore is not my boy, and Boise St is not my team. I hate Boise St nearly as much as BYU especially now since I have to watch them perenially kick the livin’ shit out of my Cowboys every year.
I would strongly disagree about Moore however. I get to watch that dude every weekend and he will be a stud in the NFL. If he were a couple inches taller, he’d be in consideration for the 1st pick. If Tebow shows us this year he is not our man, then I’d love to have Moore!
"Vegetarians are cool. All I eat are vegetarians - except for the occasional mountain lion steak "
Ted Nugent
very few are "clamoring" for Orton to start another year
Most are clamoring for the “best QB” to start, whoever that is. That is a very different thing.
McG says he’s 97% sure Orton will be traded… I think the main disagreement many have is whether THAT is the right assumption or not.
If we can get good value for Orton (2nd rnd or equivelent), bye bye… lets take our chances on TT.
However, given the CBA situation and the folks various teams drafted/FAs available, I’m not convinced we will get 2nd round value for Orton… I put it at 50-50…
If we can’t get value, I say keep him and have a great backup (either Orton or TT) for a year rather than trade him for pennies… to me, its all about value maximization.
by cjfarls on May 11, 2011 11:17 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
You’ve misread my intentions.
I’m certainly NOT clamoring for the best QB to start. The best QB right now is Orton, but he is maxed out as a player and his ceiling is too low for most Bronco fans. He has no long term future with our team, especially as it exists today is such sorry condition.
I want Tebow to start and Orton to be traded for good value.
And I’d take a 3rd round pick for Orton in a heart beat. But I’d ask for a 3rd and 5th if I couldn’t get a 2nd rounder.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
is there a risk to Tebow's ceiling by starting him?
by cosBroncosFan on May 11, 2011 12:08 PM MDT up reply actions
No.
FIRE DE MAURICE SMITH...he can go suck dog balls for all I care!
NFLPA??? National Fools and Lame Pricks Association!
ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT WE HAVE IN TEBOW? Watching Kyle orton is like watching re-runs of the Brady Bunch...you always know whats going to happen and makes you feel sick at the end!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
And you want that… You want Tim to stay where he is at for another year? How does that help Denver in any way?
As a backup, Tim won’t get 1st team reps in practice and he won’t play on Sunday. How is that conducive to improvement?
Rivers and Aaron Rodgers are not successful because they sat for two years. Both guys were 1st round draft picks that sat behind HOF talents like Farve and Brees.
Rivers and Rodgers would still be awesome NFL QBs if they had started as rookies or in year 2 because Rivers and Rodgers are both great QBs (good arms, accurate, good leaders, hard workers, decent athletes).
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
I have no idea where the number of years always comes from. I always hear that rookie qb’s should sit 2-3 years before playing. Why is it 2-3 years? Why not 1? Why not 0 years? It just seems like it’s a standard number that people put out there, and I don’t know where they get it from.
There is no one size fits all with qb’s. Some can handle coming in and playing right away, some can’t. Some benefit from being babied along, some don’t. There are cases I’m sure for guys who sat years before playing and never panned out just as much as there are for those that sat and become good players.
Regardless of what you are saying, it comes down to how a qb grows and adjusts to the NFL game and utilizes the skills they have. If you sit 2-3 year you still have to grow and adjust to the game just like a rookie qb who starts from day one. The main reason is just because of what you said McGeorge, until you start playing you don’t get first team reps and won’t play on Sundays. As much as you want to try, games can never be replicated at practice and second teamers never get anywhere as many reps as first team guys.
and I disagree with that viewpoint, because I do want the best QB to start
but that doesn’t mean I’m clamoring for Orton either.
if Orton has better value as a trade than as a one-year placeholder (either starting or backing up), good luck to him elsewhere. I think you and I agree completely on that basic point. Where we disagree is on what to do if we can’t get value for him and he remains… you think that scenario unlikely, and I think that is more a possibility.
I think Orton’s 1-year value as a TT hedge investment is worth more than a 3rd alone, but a 3rd and 5th would merit serious consideration… a 3rd and 4th would put me firmly in the “trade him” camp.
Wow!!!!!
More logic.
When “feelings” turn into “real events” then this Opening post would make a modicum of sense. I will continue to push reality on people.
It’s what Stoics do.
by Gulbrand on May 9, 2011 11:49 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
You might have something of cult following here ;)
But that’s not your fault lol
I thought I’d open the post and find a love fest, one without much merit.
I was wrong. Great post and a solid take, as always. Rec #212 my friend
Von. Doom. Pow!
I’ve also heard that almost all of those flaws can be fixed with practice, with the exception of accuracy. There seems to be some controversy on that point.
However, I’m not so sure accuracy is a huge problem with him anyway. As discussed on another thread, his Yards/Attempt numbers (and the more responsible variants at pro-football-reference) all have him in the top ten of last year. That stat can be confounded a bit by YAC, but… at any rate, if Tebow has an accuracy problem, then is that something he has a shot at drastically improving?
Dude, accuracy can definitely be fixed. With better throwing mechanics, better footwork or just pain ole experience of learning where windows will open up vs an NFL D.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
I know, dont bring up college numbers… but his completion percentage was I think 64% in college? I know, spread offense… At any rate, I think accuracy will come with learning how to read Pro Defense. That is something that every QB coming in has to learn.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 9, 2011 12:57 PM MDT up reply actions
Question
This post now have 40 Recs (after the recommendation I just gave). Why is it not moved to the home page? What is the current Rec requirement to move it to the home page? Has that feature been shut off?
Nice post McGeorge. I agree that Tim will put in the effort to try and be a HOF quarterback. He just needs to start doing more interviews with MHR. That could improve his karma.
Victor Frankl:
What man actually needs is not a tensionless state but rather the striving and struggling for some goal worthy of him. What he needs is not the discharge of tension at any cost, but the call of a potential meaning waiting to be fulfilled by him.
Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms – to choose one’s attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one’s own way.
by wyoeng on May 9, 2011 12:57 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Rec's don't get posts to the front page
This post, while popular, is just an opinion piece about Tebow. It’s nothing new, it’s not mind-opening, and while I’m not a staffer, if I were to look for front page material, I don’t look for what’s popular, I look for educational, unique or exceptionally well written ones. Nothing against McG, or his posts, which are always popular, though rare, on MHR it seems getting front paged takes more then just preaching to the choir.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by Topher Doll on May 9, 2011 1:12 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ouch. I got a smack down I didn’t ask for…
Rare is the goal with the posts. The message is lost if I produced 79 mock drafts or 10 Tebow lovefest articles.
The comments section are where I can beat folks down with repetition until submission. It works better this way.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
I think
he has rec envy.
You can be dumb... that's ok! There are many dumb people.
You can be an a$$hole... that's ok! There are many of these as well.
Unfortunately you cannot be both...
Ok... prove me wrong.
Nah, I have more then my fair share of rec's
I say this to everyone who asks this, even on my own posts. I don’t ever remember being critical of this post, I’m saying preaching to the choir doesn’t really get you front paged, but since I’m no staffer, I’m just going on the past, but hey, some people don’t care for things like that.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by Topher Doll on May 10, 2011 12:07 PM MDT up reply actions
Front page or not
40 recs gets my attention. But then I have probably already been here anyway, lol
Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
Nothing against this post
Like I said, or you McG, I’m just saying front paging an article is rare, you know that.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by Topher Doll on May 10, 2011 12:06 PM MDT up reply actions
Heh?
This is better than 80% of the stuff on MHR’s front page.
Sigh, no point in arguing
Yes it deserves front page, Tim’s around here somewhere go complain to him.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Tim's about as opinionated as anyone on this site
And you both agree on the topic at hand, I’m surprised he isn’t around. Then again, I don’t get along with Tim and we agree on almost everything. Heck you and I agree on 90% of things and we don’t get along.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Yeah, but I like you anyway.
I don’t think Tim likes me. Ask the Doc Bear types (old guard) and I’ll get blamed for ruining this website.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
I think it's true, at least from a demographics stand point
If you look at your growing following, most of them have only been on the site for less then a year.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
I have a following?
It’s not that I have a following at all. It’s just that McD lost his and MHR used to be a bastion of support for Josh McDaniels. The old guard were his biggest advocates.
At the time (back in 2009), I said if McD failed, it would hurt the credibility of MHR. It didn’t. The guys that supported McD so adamantly just started their own website (IAOFM). And they don’t talk about McD much anymore, but they do bash Xanders a good bit (which I enjoy).
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
You have a following McG
And it really doesn’t even have to do with McD, it has to do with the new generation of members who look to you as one of the veterans who they agree with. I supported McD, when he left, I was fine, I didn’t go to IAOFM, of go on a rant, just like if Tebow leaves, I won’t go on a rant of join some Tebow website. I’m a Bronco fan, this is a Bronco site, I think we were made for each other.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Your support for McD was always tepid and cautioned, which was unusual in 2009 and early 2010. Back then, most of MHR was all in with the McD plan.
You were not one of these folks.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
Thanks, that is my approach to most things
I guess I’m more willing to trust someone when they prove it to me first.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
for the record
many of us were in the support the team plan. McD was the coach of the Broncos, hope for the best type thing.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 10, 2011 9:48 PM MDT up reply actions
I’m not big on hope and hope doesn’t sell me. I’m big on results and McD was never a producer of anything beyond controversy and questionable decisions.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
I know you aren't
I’m just emphasizing that many of us were not necessarily “all in with the McD plan.” I certainly hope that the EFX plan turns out a lot better. I am reserving some judgement. So far I like what I have seen for the most part.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 11, 2011 12:52 PM MDT up reply actions
BTW
I really don’t think you can fault people for being optimistic at least initially. Once some of the moves came I think we all at least did a small double take.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 11, 2011 1:05 PM MDT up reply actions
Just to throw my 2 pennies in
Yes, McGeorge, you have a following. You are a vocal member of the community that contributes some clear and sensible opinions to our discussions.
I now visit both sites…but MHR is losing appeal…too much ignorance in the water I think. It is inevitable when a site gets so big I guess. I just tend to enjoy the more intelligent posts at IAOFM vs a large helping of the crud that muddies the waters here.
In my opinion, thank God for you two, Kaptain Kirk, Jeremy, and John (when he’s around)…probably a couple of others.
"Bombs dropping down overhead. Underground. It's instilled to want to live." -EV
IAOFM does have a much smaller community
And while I am rarely there, it is a bit more educated and calm. While I’m no regular, I haven’t seen a flame war there yet on any topic. That is why I try so hard to advocate being an educated and smart fan, it will only help you contribute more, understand the game better, and hopefully be able to look at things more calmly.
McG, even back in 2009, when he and Negative Nelly were kind of seen as a very small segment of people, McG always was fairly educated on topics he’d debate. McG, glad to have you here.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
LOL
McG and yourself both have a great ability to stir up a nest of bees. For McG, especially back in 2009. I have great respect for both of you because you rarely let it get personal and always support your opinions. I always enjoy the debate, even if I don’t have much information or stats to back up my side. I guess I must be the ignorance muddying the water.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 10, 2011 9:57 PM MDT up reply actions
IAOFM is full of highly educated, but like minded individuals. It’s also full of back patting. MHR used to be very similar back when I joined (Dec 2008).
Once McD came along and the Cutler fiasco happened, people here sided with McD and were in such strong defense mode of Josh, that my constant questioning of the job he was doing really wore some of them out.
People don’t read Fox News to hear the Democrats point of view. Well I was that at MHR 2 years ago. An opposing point of view on McD in a place where there were basically no others like me.
I wasn’t regurgitating the MSM BS or calling Josh a McDumbass. I never thought McD was a dumb-ass at all and clearly understood his vision. What I hated was what that vision he was trying to install. Most people at MHR bought into his versatile player, high character, promote from within type approach.
For me, the whole McD era was miserable and confusing. MHR was a place of highly educated Bronco fans that were buying into something that I wasn’t and that was baffling to me because so many of his decisions seemed bonkers to this fan. I also picked up on the fact that McD, not Xanders, was the GM about 15 months earlier than most and that drove me crazy because I hated that Shanny was the GM/coach and really hated that McD was the GM/coach.
Makes me sick and disgusted to see how the Broncos have operated since 2006. We’ve gone from a premier NFL organization to one of the very worst. I can’t wait until we have a chance to fix this on the field… Tebow, Fox and Elway are a great place to start. Orton is not.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
I think a big issue for many fans
Is what Orton represents, he represents the failed McD experiment, and while he did have his issues, one of the biggest reasons many want him gone is so we can move on, get over McD, and start anew. I believe that’s why many just lump Orton into this discussion, like you did with “Tebow, Fox and Elway are a great place to start. Orton is not.” Orton really isn’t a key factor in this new coaching change, the biggest factors were Fox and Allen’s new defense, changing the blocking scheme, and the 2011 draft. The QB situation isn’t really even related to the coaching change. But because Orton was the QB of 2010, he’s viewed as attached to McD, part of the “dark days” and because of that, Orton needs to go. I agree he should go, just because his value is so high now and I think Tebow is hopefully ready to start. But I feel many people just want Orton gone, not so much because his play, which may be a reason, but also because they want to forget 2009 and 2010, and Orton was a big part of that.
Sorry about that side note, just your mentioning Orton in a topic that is largely Orton free was interesting.
I haven’t seen anything especially good or bad about EFX yet to cheer for them or hate them. I do feel that having Fox has it’s benefits, but I don’t think he’s the type of coach who can build and succeed consistently. So I’m not sold on EFX yet.
But it should be noted, that after every major coaching change with major implications, Shanny to McD and then McD to Fox, fans will always side, in majority, with the new coach. The comments being said now about EFX were almost word for word the ones that were said when McX came. Personally I was more excited about McD, just from a vision standpoint, then Fox. I think Fox brings stability, which we need, but he doesn’t seem to inspire lofty visions like McD did. I don’t think we’ll win a Super Bowl under Fox, I don’t think we’ll make the playoffs that often either, but Fox will likely get us back to around 8-8, 9-7, and maybe a 10-6 on a rare occasion, but I just don’t really feel a Super Bowl in our future.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by Topher Doll on May 11, 2011 12:07 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
I think...
a lot of our success is tied to the QB position. Fox didn’t really have a franchise guy in Carolina (unless you consider Delhomme that guy). He made due without and most years fielded a respectable team. So I am hoping with Elway’s influence that one way or another we are going to get a franchise QB. Thoughts?
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 11, 2011 1:03 PM MDT up reply actions
I think the term "franchise" alone is pretty useless
It really has no meaning other then what fans put on it. Delhomme was that franchise, so in that sense, he was a franchise player. Now he was never elite, so he wasn’t franchise in that sense. Most people don’t remember, but Delhomme for many years was in the upper half of the league in terms of quarterback play, but in the past three years, most people have forgotten that. I think that teams that build themselves well, can make due with an above average QB, but as Denver fans, having grown up with Elway, we require more than most teams in terms of what we want our quarterback to do.
I realize this is a QB driven league, I know they make it easier to get to the playoffs and win the big game, but those top 5 guys like Manning, Brady and the like are much harder to find then building a balanced team. I’ll take a team that has a solid running game, an above average QB, and great defense over every two years having to draft a QB because fans want the next great QB. Just my opinion on the matter.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by Topher Doll on May 11, 2011 1:17 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
OK
I will give you the franchise point, I have always thought it a bit over used. I should have used the word elite. I think Delhomme’s stats were boosted a bit by some very elite receivers like Steve Smith and the earlier play of Muhsin Muhammad. He was also always bolstered by an outstanding run game from the likes of Stephan Davis, Deshaun Foster, and more recently, Williams and Stewart. Funny, this the same thing we debated about Aikmen. In this case I feel this is true, Delhomme will never be considered for the HOF and I dont feel he was elite although definitely serviceable. At any rate you dont need a HOF or elite QB to win a super bowl but it sure helps
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 11, 2011 1:30 PM MDT up reply actions
Agreed, I would never put Delhomme very high on my list
But if you watch him play in his early years, he was a good QB, made smart plays, could make the throws and avoid pressure. He had everything needed to succeed, at least at an above average level, and he did. He had some great talent around him that helped him get there as well.
I feel it’s easier, cheaper, and much faster to build a balanced team of a good or great, not necessarily elite, QB, a solid running game, and a good defense. I, as a fan, want a HoF QB, I want a QB who can win every game by himself and be exciting, but most teams don’t have that, those guys are hard to find. If it was just as easy as drafting a 1st round QB, there’d be a lot more great teams. But those guys are rare, so from a non-fan mentality, I would rather see us draft to build a team, not draft for QB just because the QB we have isn’t what we, as fans would like to see. Now this isn’t about Orton, I’ve thought this long before he became a Bronco.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Here’s hoping Tebow can be elite! Otherwise we could search for another 13 years and still not replace Elway. There are guys like Ryan and Flacco that are coming up in the league and if Tebow doesn’t work out I think I could be happy with a guy like that or Delhomme with a solid team around him. The question is does that lead back to what you were saying about Fox and making the playoffs and winning super bowls. I guess that is a question I dont have an answer too.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 11, 2011 2:37 PM MDT up reply actions
baby and bath water’s part of it, but tebow’s a major part of mcD’s dark days as well. but you’re right, kyle’s the starting QB and therefore de facto mcD generation poster child. another partial take on Orton that has little to do with his stats or abilities is that he doesn’t appear to have the QB persona many fans want to see. Not saying he for sure doesn’t have it, but he doesn’t show well for public consumption. doesn’t seem to like the camera, doesn’t show a lot of fire on the field—just seems laid back if not lax at times. again, i’m talking perception here, but i’m guessing fans would give more slack to a “go get ’em” field general type who shows some piss and vinegar.
I'm not sugarcoating this.
Good post Max.
My take is that McD is highly overrated at MHR. Sure he is smart and works hard, but his people skills are horrible and his arrogance does him no favors. It takes a lot more than smart mind and a clear plan to be a successful NFL coach. McD doesn’t have the whole package, not even close. He lacks the grace, patience and wisdom of the better NFL coaches. His lack of experience was also a killer and how Ellis made him the GM is reason #1 I will always hate Joe Ellis.
I agree with a lot of your Orton talk. Orton is McD’s guy because he was McD’s QB for two years. Tebow didn’t start until McD was gone so for most Bronco fans, Tim represents the post McD era even if he was Josh’s targeted pick. BTW, both meaningless games, the Houston and San Diego game were two of the best to watch in 2010.
Tim is good entertainment. Orton is boring and a proven loser in Denver. It’s somewhat embarrassing to here the home fans chanting for Tebow (as you did often last season) every time Orton goes 3 and out or makes a bad pass. The fans will boo Kyle off the field next year unless he is playing lights out and we are winning. With the 2011 team, I don’t see that happening so lets avoid the whole home fans booing him thing.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
The thing that was most attractive about McD
Was he brought that sense of greatness and hope back. With Fox, I expect stability, which we need, but not greatness. I get zero feeling of excitement for next season, or even the next couple seasons, unless something changes. Just no spark there in terms of leadership in the FO or coaching. Not a bad thing, you have to straighten the ship before it gets going fast.
As for Tebow and Orton, even if we are winning and Orton’s playing well, fans will still call for Tebow. Orton could start next season, there’s a chance of that happening, but even if we go undefeated, fans will call for Tebow.
As for the rest of your comment, I don’t feel like discussing it, since we have played so well together. And as I said before, this wasn’t even a Tebow-Orton themed comment chain.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Anytime
I have seen that fan behavior in any sport, the fans have been vilvied. It is embarrasing that our fans are so rude, but we all want to play with the shiny new toy.
The grass is always greener, that lesson has been learned over and over again………
Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
villified?
The bad guys. Fan behavior like that is bad behavior and should be discouraged.
Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
by Sean in Pa. on May 11, 2011 6:01 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
This! +1
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 11, 2011 9:22 PM MDT up reply actions
wow dude
you may be drunker than me right now ;-) I love your point though!
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 11, 2011 9:29 PM MDT up reply actions
no
that is just my double vision LOL
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 11, 2011 9:35 PM MDT up reply actions
Ha
yea, I guess I owe you an apology on the GM thing. I am sure I would have said you were nuts about that ;(
Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
by Sean in Pa. on May 11, 2011 12:32 PM MDT up reply actions
My very best observation after the 2009 draft and FA period. It was beyond clear to me that all the picks and signings fit into McD’s well defined and well articulated vision of the players he wanted.
Ayers was clearly a McD pick, as was Quinn and Moreno. McD came clean and said the Cutler talks ran thru him.
Xanders was his lap dog for two years… What a weird time. You could see the ship falling apart after the 49er game as Bronco employees started ratting on McD and looking to protect themselves. You could see the McD ship sinking so very fast.
I honestly think Studs or McCoy was the whistle blower on the filming thing.
Boy did 2010 suck in every way possible (sans Lloyd’s awesomeness and Tebow’s play in weeks 16 and 17).
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
I cant help but respond...
I now visit both sites…but MHR is losing appeal…too much ignorance in the water I think. It is inevitable when a site gets so big I guess. I just tend to enjoy the more intelligent posts at IAOFM vs a large helping of the crud that muddies the waters here.
WTF, if you don’t like it stay away.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 10, 2011 10:00 PM MDT up reply actions
lol
they took away both our comments. I can live with that! Great job MHR!
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 11, 2011 9:23 PM MDT up reply actions
When mud is being slung back and forth, just take away all the mud. Am I right?
The ignorant redneck formerly known as kentuckybronco.
by Troy Hufford on May 12, 2011 5:41 PM MDT up reply actions
absolutely!
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 13, 2011 7:03 AM MDT up reply actions
Caution
“Sports science guy… having a hissy fit”
You can be dumb... that's ok! There are many dumb people.
You can be an a$$hole... that's ok! There are many of these as well.
Unfortunately you cannot be both...
Ok... prove me wrong.
Correct me if I'm wrong
Didn’t mcd and co. Abandon the fixing of tebows throwing motion last year. I know I read something about it in dpost. Great write up mcg I agree 100%. I recently got a fm radio app on the iPhone and I’ve Been listening to Denver sports radio. Nobody on the radio has any faith in Tebow. You would think that Tebow had flutie measurables with all the bashing he takes. It still makes me cringe when I hear people doubt the 6’3" 245 heisman winner!
When Tim Tebow pissses into the wind, the wind changes direction.
by Albuquerque on May 9, 2011 5:38 PM MDT via mobile reply actions
McD seemed really focused on Tebow's motion
That was one of their main things, converting him to a pocket passer.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Nobody can predict Tebow’s if Tebow will be successful or not. Throw a dart at a dartboard and you’ll have just as much luck.
There are millions of things that go into it.
Most people tend to think he will purely because of his work ethic and natural athletic ability and I tend to agree with them, but we really don’t know tell we try.
Orton on the other hand is the “demon we know” so to speak. We know what he’s capable of. I watched first hand as he squandered last drive opportunities on nearly every game we lost. This tells me a few things:
1. He can’t rally the team around him.
2. He isn’t clutch.
3. He isn’t a franchise guy.
The best quarterbacks are the ones that you can count on to bring you back from the dead or the ones that suck the life out of the opposing team early. Orton just didn’t do that no matter how you slice it.
Orton would be best served on a team like the Jets where they pound the rock and play great defense. Not so much on the Denver Broncos. Even if that’s what we’re aspiring to be we’re not there yet and we won’t be good this season.
So why lock Orton up in Bronco purgatory when he could be other making another team better AND providing us with compensation for his services?
Keeping Orton here isn’t right for him or the Denver Broncos. Is Tebow right? Who the hell knows. It might click and he might end up being one of the all time Denver greats. Or he might fall flat on his ass and end up being a UFL superstar.
The simple fact is there is no reason to not find out. If he sucks it up all next season (and you don’t pull him no matter how bad he is) then we know and can go after Luck. If he shows promise you keep putting pieces together on defense.
But the one thing you don’t do is keep Mr. Orton, pay him $10 million, and not get anything when he jumps ship next year. Because what if Tebow does end up sucking like the pundits say and we miss out on Luck or whatever the flavor of the off season rookie QB is?
We’ll be angry.
A vote for Orton is a vote for selfish pride in trying to win an extra game or two in a season that is more likely to be a 0-16 season than it is a 12-4 season.
Let’s start building for the future so we can get past this mediocrity. Let’s not roll around in it.
Von Dooooooooom.
I typed this too fast and a lack of an edit button makes me sad.
Von Dooooooooom.
by ChristianL on May 9, 2011 7:37 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
if i ran Denver
i wouild call tebow in my office and say u have 1 year A Luck is the Next Peyton Manning /JElway if u do not win 8/9 games we will trade to a QB needy team and get Luck by any means nessancy becauce if u have a elice QB he can cover so many holes and a big time QB get u calls too we couild be the new new enland hopefully with tebow but maybe we will have some luck
okay i have cerebral palsy arthris and chronic fatigue as well i have a great life and loveing folks some days are better than other days i got a make-a-wish in 2001 and saw my favorite team the broncos it was the trip of a lifetime i wish everyone couild have gotten to enjoy that with me i know some of u hate the broncos and that okay but i bleed organ and bule for my mnr fans but i bleed orange and blue denver will rise again resident broncos fan for every blog resident broncos for stampede bule thanks shvd98z24 real name jeremy woodard nettleton high class of 02 yes i am a raider
Lucky you dont run Denver then J man...one, I dont believe the hype on Luck and two, who gives a 1st round pick only one year, under center, with that proviso?
FIRE DE MAURICE SMITH...he can go suck dog balls for all I care!
NFLPA??? National Fools and Lame Pricks Association!
ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT WE HAVE IN TEBOW? Watching Kyle orton is like watching re-runs of the Brady Bunch...you always know whats going to happen and makes you feel sick at the end!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
i understand
that as well i watched luck a lot this year i know its just college but he peyton manning 2.0 i never was a big fan of locker in college wash improved because of great coaching if u put luck in arkansas or okle off his numbers wouild be off the charts he has IT now i might be wrong they are no sure things in life but its a hunch of mine and we will see in 3-5 years
okay i have cerebral palsy arthris and chronic fatigue as well i have a great life and loveing folks some days are better than other days i got a make-a-wish in 2001 and saw my favorite team the broncos it was the trip of a lifetime i wish everyone couild have gotten to enjoy that with me i know some of u hate the broncos and that okay but i bleed organ and bule for my mnr fans but i bleed orange and blue denver will rise again resident broncos fan for every blog resident broncos for stampede bule thanks shvd98z24 real name jeremy woodard nettleton high class of 02 yes i am a raider
The Luck hype
Just remember that at this time last year Jake Locker was a lock to be the #1 pick in this year’s draft because he was such an “unbelievable” prospect. So much for that huh?
Sure, maybe Luck will turn out to be the #1 pick, but hype can be deceiving, and we’d all do well to keep that in mind.
Let's see what happens to Luck now that Harbaugh is gone
I’m not buying into the hype yet either.
by DE_BroncoFan on May 10, 2011 12:17 PM MDT up reply actions
I'm not buying the hype on Harbaugh either.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 10, 2011 12:38 PM MDT up reply actions
yet anyways
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 10, 2011 12:38 PM MDT up reply actions
here’s the thing on Luck. The only knock against him has been his accuracy. And apparently accuracy can be taught. It sounds like Tennessee might have gotten a steal.
i'd put my money on locker over luck.
luck’s system was awesome—three foot cushion for receivers every play. they both could be great but right now i’d go with locker.
I'm not sugarcoating this.
Thank you....nothing all world about what Andrew Luck did.
FIRE DE MAURICE SMITH...he can go suck dog balls for all I care!
NFLPA??? National Fools and Lame Pricks Association!
ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT WE HAVE IN TEBOW? Watching Kyle orton is like watching re-runs of the Brady Bunch...you always know whats going to happen and makes you feel sick at the end!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Totally and completely 100% +1
"Nothing in the world can take the place of Persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race." - Calvin Coolidge
Mr. Gambini, that is a lucid, intelligent, well thought-out argument.
…
Overruled.
Kidding. Okay, okay, I’ll call uncle. As much as I want to win every game I can this year, I’ll acknowledge that it’s time to be patient and get value for Kyle while we can.
Bringing you hopeful optimism and irreverent naivité, 24/7.
Once a diehard NFL fan, now a diehard CFL fan. GO STAMPS!
I hope that Tebow will be good this year
I just saw him put up too many wounded ducks last year to think that he can be a good passer, no matter how hard he works. Remember that TD pass in the Raider game, where the ball somehow made it through two sets of defenders hands into Lloyd’s midsection? The ball never should have been thrown, much less gotten us points. I don’t know enough about the QB position to know if those things can be coached.
So, while I hope that Tebow can outwork all of his problems and become a good QB in this league, I harbour all kinds of doubts. OTOH, I did see him raise this team’s effort and compete level to new heights and he brought us back, down big, in three straight games. That is the mark of a champion, which means that I’m also excited. It’s a dicotomy.
I wholeheartedly agree that he should start this year (if there is a ‘this year’) and let the chips fall where they may. There is nothing Orton can contribute to this team that Tebow can’t.
by Jason Witte on May 10, 2011 8:53 AM MDT reply actions 2 recs
Lloyd is a better WR than the Raiders DB/S on that play.
It’s a good pass to put the ball up where the best player can make the play. Lloyd was sliding out of bounds when he made that catch and it was a tough one to make. One of many reasons Brandon made the Pro Bowl and All Pro teams.
Orton would have never thrown that pass and we would have punted on the next play.
I didn’t see the wounded duck passes. Just a lot of deep balls with a lot of air under them. He’ll have to work on that, but if Lloyd is down there and he is the best jumper in the NFL, why not?
If Eddie Royal was the intended receiver (I kid, when do we ever throw to Royal) I would not suggest Tim make those kind of throws.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
agree jason
I love TT’s potential, but things like that pass and some of his other floaters make me question how much a “sure thing” he really is, inspite of his moxy and intangibles. Going with him may be a good investment/bet in general, but it has a bunch of risk too.
Given the uncertainty in TT, I’m very willing to make a failry substantial hedge investment in Orton. Big enough that I’d pass on a 3rd round pick offer for Orton. If TT regresses or doesn’t improve this year (in practice, if not games), I also have no problem resigning Orton next year as a mid-to-long-term starter while we continue to try to search for the next “special” Broncos QB.
Many folks seem to hate Orton (IMO unfairly placing the failures of the rest of the team of the past 2 years on his shoulders), but I still think on a solid team he can be a perfectly viable, playoff caliber QB. I think many of the “trade him” club agree, because why else would they expect another team to give us substantial value for him otherwise?
The folks whom I most seriously disgaree are the folks that think tanking the season with subpar QB play (if TT doesn’t pan out) and getting a shot at a high-1st round QB next year is better than sticking with Orton. They tend to think the only way we’ll ever get “good enough” is to get a Elway/Manning/Brady-quality QB, and I just don’t agree with that. It is personal opinion, but I’m unlikely to convince them or vice-versa, regardless of how much data I have that I feel backs my view. most discussions I’ve seen of the topic result in pointless name-calling and ad hominem attacks.
I do believe strongly that you can’t have a bad QB and win in the NFL, but I just don’t think Orton is a ‘bad" QB in that sense. I think he’s good enough to win (including a SB) if the rest of the team doesn’t suck. He doesn’t need the 86Bears to win… he just needs mediocrity, which we haven’t given him.
The folks in the “better we lose big” camp are probably more down on the team overall than I am… I look at the young talent we’ve brought in the past 3-4 drafts and the return of Clady and Doom to health and think we’re far from the bottom-dwellers in terms of mid/long talent potential… I’m willing to see if some of these young guys develop and think the picture a year or 3 from now is fairly hopeful, whether TT works out or not. That doesn’t mean I think we don’t have remaining big holes to fill, that all these young players WILL work out, or that TT blossoming isn’t the surest/quickest path to Broncos success.
by cjfarls on May 11, 2011 12:35 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
A great job of writing McGeorge
Easily one of the best fanposts of the year! rec’d!
Hey McG...
This post has been great, it really seams like a lot of fans have been able to hash this out. To me it has brought us closer to center. Rec #57, as if you needed it! ;-)
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
I’m a believer in trial by fire.
We suck right now. We’re not the Packers of 2007 or the Chargers of 2004 with HOF types like Farve and Brees ahead of Tebow.
We have Orton, a guy that is an average NFL QB with a 11-19 record as Bronco starter (8-8 & 3-11). Orton is also injury prone which doesn’t bode well behind our O-line which will again be in transition at RT and a new blocking/coaching scheme.
Orton will do better on a better team. He is poorly suited to be the QB of the 2010 and 2011 Broncos. As reflected in his 2010 record.
Kyle is worth more to another team than he is worth to Denver for our 2011 purposes. This is the time to trade him. Again, it’s a no brainer. People that don’t want Tebow in 2011 will bring up comparisons to Elway, a pocket passer or Aaron Rodgers, but that’s all irrelevance noise.
Tebow needs to prove he belongs and the best way to do that is getting all the 1st team reps in practice and getting all the snaps on Sunday.
Orton has already proven out as a decent NFL QB. Denver doesn’t need a decent low ceiling QB as a rebuilding team at the very bottom. Lloyd, Gaff and Royal don’t need Orton (they are already established NFL players. Moreno doesn’t need Orton, he needs better blocking from Clady and Co. Clady and Co don’t need Orton, they need a much better O-line coach and a much smarter blocking scheme. No one on Denver’s offense needs Orton over a Tebow.
And Orton doesn’t need Denver’s rebuilding project. He belongs on a team like Minnesota or Miami. Or just trade him to a POS team like Washington or Arizona if they are desperate enough.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
I agree
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 12, 2011 9:41 AM MDT up reply actions
and honestly, what are we talking here?
even trial by fire is just freaking FOOTBALL. these guys are all good enough to make it to the pros because they played damned great football their entire lives. it’s not like you’re putting tim tebow into a space shuttle with a few science books and telling him ‘good luck’ as a starting astronaut. i can’t think of any great football players off hand whose careers were ruined by playing too soon. alex smith, i guess? …but really though?
I'm not sugarcoating this.
LMAO!
Great analogy!
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on May 12, 2011 12:32 PM MDT up reply actions
good post McGeorge
got a question about Franklin. What’s your assessment of his pure potential? obviously you believe he hasn’t proven himself much at the collegiate level. But he certainly looks to have the size and tenacity for the pros – just a lack of technique and pass blocking ability. I see those weaknesses as things that can be worked on and developed. It may be risky to plug him in there from day 1, and I’m sure the front office has considered that. Perhaps Harris will be back for one more year on a franchise tender? Have Franklin develop behind him ala Ducasse with the Jets, and perhaps we’ll see some good results in year 2 or 3?
After all, not all players from the draft are gonna be polished and ready to go from day 1. I see Franklin as a bit of a high upside project. And heaven knows, we certainly need more high upside guys on the o-line.
Napoleon McDaniels
by RockyMountainHigh on May 12, 2011 4:31 AM MDT reply actions
I think Franklin is already at his ceiling as a player so his potential is low. It’s low because he is not a good athlete and he is not a smart player. He played a ton of snaps at the U of Miami as he was a starter at G or LT for several seasons so it’s not like he is raw. Franklin is already 24 years old so it’s not like he is baby.
His run blocking is good. I was so pissed about the pick that I didn’t give Orlando enough credit for that. But my worry in this area is that Orlando uses his size and power to overwhelm ACC D-linemen and it worked very well vs a Virginia or NC State, but teams like Clemson (some NFL D-linemen) and FSU (ditto) fared better in their battles with Franklin.
Maybe he can be coached up, but Miami had a very good offensive coordinator the last few years so it’s not like he had no coaching down here. Miami is not what they were 10 years ago, but we still produce a Top 25 team and several NFL players each year. Franklin is not the one I would have wanted Denver to take. I wish the Chargers had because then we’d have been able to see him in pass block vs Von Miller or Elvis and Rivers would be on IR.
Franklin was so bad in pass block as an LT his Sr year. He was far too slow footed for the position, but also alarming was that he constantly failed to pick up blizters or stunting DTs. He didn’t appear athletic enough or smart enough to handle the pass rush as a tackle. He can use his nasty to run block the guy in front of him and that comes in handy. But I don’t want to see him go against guys like Hali, Jared Allen, Seamour or Sean Phillips in the passing game. He’ll get obliterated by guys like that.
I guess we can get Rich Quinn in to help him on pass block, but that leaves Denver with fewer receivers and from watching Rich Quinn play for two years, the tandem of him and Franklin is not exciting as a Bronco fan because (IMO) neither of those two are good or even so-so NFL players.
If Franklin works out at RT for Denver, I’ll be in complete shock. I think we’ll see Beadles at RT in weak one. Short little arms and all. I’m not happy about the prospects. I’ll be much less surprised if Orlando Franklin is not a Bronco by TC of 2013.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
lol @
just a lack of technique and pass blocking ability
Isn’t this like 75% of being an NFL lineman? I hope Magazu has some tricks up he sleeves…
MOZGOD Member #35
Great article McGeorge...
I think the most important statistic people underestimate is the points per game…
MOZGOD Member #35
It’s the entire point of offense Combat.. With Tebow, we get TDs in the red zone. With Orton, it’s FG attempts or turnover on downs.
I guess we know which QB Prater wants to start.
Welcome to Denver Von Miller.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
Getting Social With MHR
Web Stuff
In Association With
Shutdown Corner - NFL - Yahoo! Sports
- Things to know about NFL men who served in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam
- How Kyle Orton almost cost the Colts Andrew Luck
- Detroit Lions DT Nick Fairley arrested again; now has more NFL arrests than NFL sacks
- Former high-school star Brian Banks does serious time on trumped-up charge, now hopes for an NFL shot
- Former ‘idiot kicker’ Mike Vanderjagt in trouble after accosting junior-high heckler
