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Breaking Down the Roster - Part Two: Running Back

Knowshon_moreno_vs

Opening Statement

Last week, I began this series on the Broncos' roster with some analysis on the quarterbacks. While I did not include anything on Tim Tebow, who had too small of a sample size of 12 quarters, I wrote that Kyle Orton gave Denver the best chance to win as of right now. Although that is likely to change once training camp begins and also depends on what trade value Orton has once the CBA is renewed, all we can go off of is past performances.

Today, I will do the same with Denver's running backs. Part of the struggles at quarterback resulted from the lack of production and health at this position. So I will begin by stating that each of these positional previews is simply based off of what we know right now. Since there is no such numerical value for "potential", I will only use past performances.

As usual, I not only use the base statistics provided by NFL.com, but also my own innovative statistics on my website at www.queuestats.com for further analysis on players and teams.

Star-divide

The Stats

Denver currently has 7 running backs on its roster - Lance Ball, Correll Buckhalter, Jeremiah Johnson, Mike McLaughlin, Brandon Minor, Knowshon Moreno, and Lendale White. Of these seven, Ball, Buckhalter, Moreno and White are the ones with the most expectations to contribute during the year. I will address free agency at the end since this is a position that Denver will most likely take a good look across the league to add depth.

This chart indicates the base statistics for a running back along with a rating I created to measure production. Last year, Arian Foster led the league with a rating of 93. You can check out the full ratings for eligible running backs for the 2010 regular season here.

 

Player Car Yds YPC Tds 100+ Gms Rec Tds Car Rat
Lance Ball 54 241 4.5 0 0 4 0 N/A
Correll Buckhalter 655 2944 4.5 21 6 144 6 49.2
Knowshon Moreno 429 1726 4 12 2
65 5 63
Lendale White 628 2349 3.7 24 7 42 0 53

 

  1. Although Ball has ran well on some of the few carries he has been given, its really too difficult to tell what kind of impact he can have. He was last in the depth chart for running backs going into the 2010 season before injuries hit White and then Moreno. His familiarity with Denver is important but as far as production goes, there is too little to form a decision. It will simply come down to what the coaches see in training camp and the health of the rest of the running backs.
  2. Buckhalter is a seasoned situational veteran that can contribute in both the running and passing game. With a low rating of 49.2, it is clear he can not be counted on to carry a huge part of the load, especially since health has been a factor his entire career. However, he has had several games where he has played very well. He is effective when catching passes and has a good 4.5 YPC average. Although age and health are factors, he should remain on the depth chart for experience until some of the younger running backs begin to show signs of maturation in training camp.
  3. Moreno has played in most of his games in his two-year career, but has left several of them with limited playing time. Health will definitely be a concern going into the 2011 season. His production has not been bad. Although 63 is still below average, he has shown great versatility with 5 receiving touchdowns to go with his 12 rushing touchdowns. To get a deeper perspective on if he is progressing, I looked at his 2010 season before and after the bye. Before the bye, he played in 5 games with 252 yards (50.4 YPG) on 76 carries (3.3 YPC) and 4 total touchdowns. Unfortunately, he was not much of a factor, whether due to health or production. Obviously, the defense or offensive line did him no favors. While the defense remained awful, the offense line was restored, even if they were not 100 percent healthy. After the bye, he played in 8 games with 527 yards (65.9 YPC) on 106 carries (5.0 YPC) and 6 total touchdowns. Even with a couple games lost to injury and poor play, he finished with a pace over 1000 rushing yards and over 10 total touchdowns for a season. On the year he finished with 1151 total yards (88.5 PG) of offense. Is it time for Moreno to finally put together games against the rest of the league like he did against Kansas City? Yes. Is it time for him to actually be in the lineup? Yes. On the other had, has he shown he can be the featured back? Yes. His production significantly improved following the bye and all he needs now is consistency. Unless a big name free-agent running back comes to Denver, he should remain the starter and receive most of the carries.
  4. Lendale White was a scoring machine at USC and is a big running back at 6-1, 235 pounds. I know I thought he would be a great short-yardage and goal-line running back who could also carry the load when Moreno needed a break. White is not much of a receiving threat, but is a solid runner and recorded 7 games with 100+ yards rushing in his 4-year stint with Tennessee. However, with a rating of 53, he is still a situational running back that adds depth to this team. Although he was hampered with injuries for most of 2010, expect him to be used by Fox as the primary back-up running back. Of all the running backs on the roster behind Moreno, he has the most to offer and has only played four seasons of football and has plenty left.

Finally, the past few years have shown Denver can't have too much depth at running back. With Denver's running game possibly needing some added firepower, here is a chart of potential running backs that could add depth and actually have a decent possibility of coming to Denver.

 

Player Car Yds YPC Tds 100+ Gms Rec Tds Car Rat
DeAngelo Williams 841 4211 5 31 15 118 4 71.1
Ronnie Brown 1128 4815 4.3 36 15 184 2 55.4
Tim Hightower 439 1733 3.9 23 4 118 0 54.3
Jerious Norwood 375 1995 5.3 7 2 96 3 49.3
Darren Sproles 249 1154 4.6 6 2 146 11 47.3
Derrick Ward 506 2474 4.9 10 3 96 3 45.7
Mike Bell 395 1475 3.7 14 2 33 0 45.1

 

Of the running backs above, DeAngelo Williams career has been the best by far. Unfortunately, the price tag may be too great, even for his former head coach John Fox. With Ronnie Brown finally playing a full season, health may not be too much of a concern. He has been productive and has shown he can shoulder most of the load with over 15 games over 100 yards rushing. Tim Hightower is the only running back that has played significant time as the featured back, and he has played well at times. Although he is not an explosive back, he can definitely play a significant role.

After them, each running back has not shown too much as far as consistency or the ability to be a featured back. However, Darren Sproles has the most upside because of his unique athleticism in the passing game and return game.

 

In Summary

Denver has two solid running backs with Knowshon Moreno and Lendale White who unfortunately have health issues. Buckhalter adds experience and some quality production while Lance Ball adds youth. However, Denver has little else after these four.

Expect FEX to pursue DeAngelo Williams unless the price is too steep. If that fails, Denver's next best option appears to be Tim Hightower or Ronnie Brown. Hightower hasn't had great production, but Brown has had health issues. If Denver feels they have a solid featured back in Moreno and a solid back-up in White, then look for them to get someone like Sproles, who can add another dimension in the receiving game as well as take over the role for returning and let Royal line up in the slot.

These are definitely not all of the possibilities, but they are some to think about. Much of this will change once training camp begins.

Although I did not include college running backs because they have no experience in the NFL, Denver could definitely go that route as well. I haven't watched much college football and offenses in college do not necessarily translate to the NFL. If you have any suggestions for college free-agents, feel free to add them in the comment section.

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I’d rather resign Ryan Harris than grab any of those free agents. I still think he can be great when healthy, and a return the the zone blocking scheme should help our running game as a whole.

When rating RBs, I also tend to take most numbers with a grain of salt. The only RB I have seen who could put up good numbers behind a bad O-line was Barry Sanders. That’s why I think it’s tough to compare RB performance from different teams. Yards after contact is helpful, but it’s just another stat to take into consideration.

I’m optimistic for Moreno, simply because he was so much better than any other RB who tried to run behind our line last year. Buck and Maroney added together barely beat Moreno’s ypc. Lance Ball seems like a decent backup as well (and another guy who could have gotten 1400 yards behind our old o-line). If we can improve our play in the trenches, the rest should take care of itself.

by Tazzik on Jun 28, 2011 12:06 PM MDT reply actions  

Agree on Harris, disagree on Moreno

Moreno has been at times BADLY outplayed by a broken down running back (t-buck) behind the same offensive line. The problem with Moreno, is he does not make his line better, good backs do that. Yes he would perform better behind better offensive lines, but you want someone who makes the line better, not just get as many yards as the o-line gets.

Here is the test. Since football began there have been good backs behind bad offensive lines. When this happens observers all say the same thing, “Wow he is a good back, too bad he plays behind that offensive line”. Nobody besides fans hoping we did not bust on the 12th pick in the draft say that about Moreno. You do not hear people around the league say, “Wow, that Moreno is such a good back, too bad he plays behind that line”.

I will even make it more obvious. Good running backs put pressure on a defense. This is why they make their offensive line better. Things too stacked up in the middle, no problem, the good back attacks the perimeter. He has the speed to get to the edge. Moreno has not shown the speed to consistently get to the edge. Things clogged up on the outside, no problem, the good back runs hard up the middle for the gain he can get. No one mistakes Moreno for a power back. So what pressure does Moreno put on a defense? I guarantee when defenses prepare for Denver, they don’t spend a lot of time asking themselves how they can contain Moreno. They don’t worry about him getting to the edge, they stack the middle against him.

He is not a back that has speed to get to the edge, he is not a power back up the middle. He does have good lateral movement which would be great if he could get to the outside, but good lateral movement up the middle is mitigated by the real estate up the middle being clogged with bodies. He is a threat catching passes. The short answer is Denver needs someone who makes their line better. Someone who puts pressure on the defense, someone who can stretch the field from side to side, to make it easier to open holes in the middle of the field. So far, Moreno has not been that guy.

I would be tickled pink if he regained any of the form he was supposed to have coming out of college. But until the Broncos assemble a pro bowl offensive line, opening holes up the middle for a lateral back who lacks the speed to get to the edge, is going to be difficult.

Now he is our best back, but, well, who really is his competition? Who does Denver have as a back that any team would give us draft picks to get? There maybe so many holes in the Broncos roster that the decision is made to go with Moreno. Maybe he will step up. I sure hope so, but I would be looking for any and all backs at this point, to make sure if he does not, we have a plan B.

by Keyworthpunch on Jun 28, 2011 12:55 PM MDT up reply actions  

I don’t remember anyone speaking about Priest Holmes that way when he was in Baltimore. Do you think he became a radically different player when he went to KC? There’s a pretty good history of RBs who had vastly different levels of success when they ran behind a different o-line, as any Bronco fan has seen first-hand.

Also, while Buck may have outperformed Moreno two years ago, Moreno was far superior last year. I expect a rookie RB to have a few struggles – as long as he continues to improve. I don’t think Moreno is going to be the next great back in this league, but I’d still take him over any of the other RBs being discussed as potential FA signings.

It’s a big year for Moreno. Either he comes through like the solid back I think he can become, or he is looking for a new home in 2012. I don’t think he has much wiggle room right now, unfortunately.

by Tazzik on Jun 28, 2011 1:50 PM MDT up reply actions  

Nice debate to each of you and some solid points

But you lost me when you said you’d take Moreno over all the FAs being discussed. You’re not really suggesting that you’d take Moreno over DeAngelo Williams, are you?

Also, Moreno is under contract through 2013. He doesn’t have to be a pro-bowler for us to keep him around. He’s not going anywhere in 2012.

Von. Doom. Pow!

by Rodney A on Jun 28, 2011 10:18 PM MDT up reply actions  

Actually, yes

DeAngelo has had some serious durability issues lately, and he’s never been a full-time back. If we could get him on the cheap, than sure, he’d be worth the risk. However, I’d rather roll with Moreno one more year than throw money at Williams.

As for Moreno’s status next year, perhaps you are taking me too literally. What I mean is that if he has a bad year this year (or gets hurt again), there’s almost no chance we won’t be looking for a replacement. If his contract is low enough (I haven’t looked up the numbers on it), we can keep him as a backup, but if it’s too high he could be sent packing. 3 years is a long time in RB terms, so he needs to prove that he has what it takes to succeed. I think he can, but only time will tell.

by Tazzik on Jun 29, 2011 6:22 AM MDT up reply actions  

A make or break year. I love it. Love that kind of pressure. Hope Moreno approaches 2011 with this mindset. He better.

I agree with you on this debate. This is the year Moreno becomes a force that keeps D coordinators awake at night or he fades into the ugly history of NFL draft busts.

He’s been stuck in purgatory his first two years. Another year in purgatory and it becomes clear that his ceiling as an RB is low and he’s not starting RB worthy in the NFL. Based on the way he played in the 2nd half of 2010, he is an ascending player so that bodes well for him.

The Lockout bores me.

by McGeorge on Jun 29, 2011 7:30 AM MDT up reply actions  

a quick note on Moreno's contract

he will average 1million per year for the next 3 seasons, with the possibility of around 6mil in incentives. They also have the option of exercising a 5mil option in 2014 if he becomes a breakout player.

Change your opinions, keep to your principles; change your leaves, keep intact your roots.

by Jeremy Bolander on Jun 29, 2011 8:26 AM MDT up reply actions  

Rookie 1st round contracts are great after you fund the signing bonus. That is dirt cheap.

The Lockout bores me.

by McGeorge on Jun 29, 2011 9:11 AM MDT up reply actions  

Wow

He’s solid enough to keep for the the next 3 seasons for sure. I do agree with the sentiment of this thread though…he needs to show us something this year or he needs to be relegated to back-up duty.

"Bombs dropping down overhead. Underground. It's instilled to want to live." -EV

by sadaraine on Jun 29, 2011 10:09 AM MDT up reply actions  

Wow.

Just to clarify, I don’t believe DeAngelo Williams will be a priority for us. And I don’t think we need him. But I think it’s very bold to say you prefer Moreno.

In any event, Williams has a career rushing average of 5-YPC. That includes three years of rushing for 5-YPC or higher and zero years of rushing for under 4-YPC. He’s rushed for over 1,000 yards in two of his last three years – whle playing in a time share role with another first-rounder (Stewart). The reason he’s never been a full time back is because that’s simply not how Fox rolls. It’s craziness to think DeAngelo couldn’t be a full-time back.

Williams had the 13th most rushing yards in 2009 and had more yards per carry than all but three of the runners in front of him. The year prior to that, he was third place in total rushing yards in first place in yards per rush (200+ carries). He also had the most rushing TDs that year (18).

DeAngelo Williams has only missed significant time due to injury once in his career, last year. He played the first six games and will have had nearly a full year to recuperate.

Williams is an absolute top-tier running back. And he’s managed that feat despite playing against perpetually stacked boxes against defenses that would sooner laugh at his QB than to fear him. Moreno, on the other hand, may turn a corner, but he’s absolutely not a top-tier RB at this stage.

Von. Doom. Pow!

by Rodney A on Jun 29, 2011 9:10 AM MDT up reply actions  

If Williams was going into his third year, I’d happily take him. He’s not. He’s a 28 year old RB, coming off of a significant injury, who was having a pretty average season last year (2 other RBs on their team had more carries and ypc). That’s just too many red flags for me to take. As I said, I’d be happy to get him cheap. I just wouldn’t pay him anything near what he is going to command on the open market.

by Tazzik on Jun 29, 2011 11:06 AM MDT up reply actions  

I agree here

though I should note that disagreeing with Vodney is something I have discovered causes me to double-check my premises. Watching Correll fall off so quickly in production was a bit of an eye-opener for me, and further confirmation for the idea that RBs have a very unique, and steep career curve in the NFL, one that is almost guaranteed to exist with any sort of major lower body injury….

Change your opinions, keep to your principles; change your leaves, keep intact your roots.

by Jeremy Bolander on Jun 29, 2011 11:15 AM MDT up reply actions  

I think one or both of us veered off course..

I never took this as an either/or scenario where we’d bring in DeAngelo and release Moreno. When I questioned you taking Moreno over Williams it was strictly from a current skill level perspective.

Moreno is 23 and is set to make less than $4M (total) over the next three years. DeAngelo Williams is 28 and will make like $15M over the next three years. Who would I rather have on our team? Moreno. Who’s the better back? Williams.

As I’ve said elsewhere in this post, I prefer to draft running backs, use them and abuse them and then draft another one in five years instead of paying an aging back. I’ve also been clear that I don’t want us to pursue DeAngelo and that I don’t expect us to.

So I could have taken your point wrong. I was just trying to say that while Knowshon is better from a cost/benefit perspective, DeAngelo is easily the better back… currently.

Von. Doom. Pow!

by Rodney A on Jun 29, 2011 1:35 PM MDT up reply actions  

Comparing Priest Holmes to Moreno? Mmm.

The comparison stops at the particular team scheme they were or are at at the time. The big difference though is that Holmes was a UFA coming out of college and not a 1st rd pick. UFAs aren’t expected to impact right away or even ever, but 1st rounders are. Moreno on the other hand hasn’t lived up to his 1st rd billing and a lot of his performance does necessarily hinge on the OLines performance. Let’s face it, our OLine has been going through growing pains for quite some time and now are finally coming together when all things (coaches and scheme) are changing…This will be an interesting season for sure, I’ll be watching the running game and our OLine a little closer this fall…

by bfree2bronc on Jun 29, 2011 4:30 AM MDT up reply actions  

The round somebody is picked in is irrelevant to this discussion. I was responding to the statement that a good RB will still be recognized as such even if he is running behind an inferior o-line. I brought up Priest Holmes because I don’t remember anyone calling him a great RB before he started running behind KC’s line.

My point is simply that very few RBs can really stand out when their line is terrible (as ours was for most of last year). I’d have trouble coming up with anyone who has, other than Barry Sanders. I suppose you could make a case for Steven Jackson, but he got noticed for good production before the rest of the offense went to garbage. I’m not really sure who else has been given credit for being a great RB behind a bad o-line…

Moreno has not been great, but he was very solid last year (when everyone else we put back there stunk). He just has to prove that he has the durability to last in this league, and I really hope he can have a strong year this season.

by Tazzik on Jun 29, 2011 6:31 AM MDT up reply actions  

Imagine if we’d just drafted like smart teams and taken Orakpo at 12 and LeSean McCoy in round 2 instead of McBath…

Oh, the 2009 draft breaks my heart.

The Lockout bores me.

by McGeorge on Jun 29, 2011 7:38 AM MDT up reply actions  

Coaching should make a huge difference too Bill

It can’t be overestimated how jacked up our blocking scheme was last year. Analyzing it I couldn’t decide if it was brilliant and beyond our OLs and backs capabilities or crazy and a desperate grasping of straws. It probably falls in between, but the record definitely leans toward crazy. With the OL shakeups, a conservative plan with overloaded lines and a c’est la vie attitude would probably have served us best in the long run, instead every trick in the book was pulled out, and few new ones made up, and the problem with that is you can only practice so many plays in a week. We needed more bread and water last year, less high fructose corn syrup and artificial sweetners.

And while I’m not inclined to overrate Fox’s offensive schemes, if we get anything from him, it should be more bread and water….

Change your opinions, keep to your principles; change your leaves, keep intact your roots.

by Jeremy Bolander on Jun 29, 2011 8:35 AM MDT up reply actions  

I can help you here. It was NOT brilliant. It has to work in order to be in the running for brilliant status.

The Lockout bores me.

by McGeorge on Jun 29, 2011 9:15 AM MDT up reply actions  

LOL

"Bombs dropping down overhead. Underground. It's instilled to want to live." -EV

by sadaraine on Jun 29, 2011 10:11 AM MDT up reply actions  

True. In my defense I should note that this was in situ analysis during the course of the season.

You know, all hopeful-like.

Change your opinions, keep to your principles; change your leaves, keep intact your roots.

by Jeremy Bolander on Jun 29, 2011 11:06 AM MDT up reply actions  

That's a 'sweet' analogy Jeremy!
We needed more bread and water last year, less high fructose corn syrup and artificial sweetners.

by bfree2bronc on Jun 29, 2011 6:51 PM MDT up reply actions  

I disagree with you.

The guy almost had a 1,000 yards rushing his rookie year and almost got 800 yards in a season where he got hurt. He has had over a 1,000 yards worth of offense the last two seasons. His average per carry this last season was similar to Chris Johnson and Jones-Drew. Not to mention, there were games where he would have almost 60 yards rushing by halftime and than wouldn’t get the ball the rest of the game—look at the Rams/Charger game. That’s partical Mcdainels and the defense’s fault. When the defense is giving up 29 ponts a game, it’s pretty hard to establish any kind of running game. Therefore his stats took a hit this year. Also, Mcdainels would only run the ball enough to set up his “passing game.” Heck even in the chiefs game where got 161 yards, he didn’t get the ball enough because yet again Mcdainels was too worried about passing the ball. Common sense would be if your RB is having a good day, you give him the ball until the defense can stop him. Clearly Mcdainels doesn’t have any common sense in those reguards. Moreno had one alright season—even though he did rush for 161 in one game— and people are hitting the panic button.

And this statement you made, “Moreno has been at times BADLY outplayed by a broken down running back (t-buck) behind the same offensive line.” When did this happen? Last I checked Buckhalter (that’s who I think you’re referring to) was the biggest disapointment of the year. He was the reason why Mcdainels had to make a trade for Laurence Marnoney. If Buckhalter out played Moreno behind the same o-line, than why didn’t he get over 50 yards even once the whole year? Did you forget that Orton was the leading rusher against the Titans? A game in which Buckhalter started. That’s just awful. Buckhalter and Maroney made the worst RB combo in the history of the NFL. The stats show that one.

And really all Moreno needs is a RB that can come in and change the pace a little bit. It would be nice to have a backup RB that isn’t over 30. Also would be nice to have a backup RB that doesn’t take 5 seconds to get it across the line of scrimage—Maroney.

by tiderfootball09 on Jun 28, 2011 5:22 PM MDT up reply actions  

Buckhalter easily out played Moreno in 2009. Moreno easily out played Buck in 2010

I think you’re giving Moreno too much credit. Comparing him to MJD and CJ is just tacky -) There’s probably some truth somewhere in the middle of each of your views. Moreno could easily become a stud RB this year. He has shown promise, but no consistency. Keyworth is correct in that as of yet, no defenses are likely to have worried much about Moreno. Moreno hasn’t posed much of a threat to opposing defenses. And nobody outside Denver is going to come out and say “man, that Moreno guy, he’s good – too bad he was playing behind a bad line”.

Moreno has potential and still has upside. Either way, though, we’re going to need to bring somebody else in through FA this year. The only question is whether we draft a high-rounder next year, and that, IMO, will depend on whether Moreno breaks out this year… or breaks down.

Von. Doom. Pow!

by Rodney A on Jun 28, 2011 10:27 PM MDT up reply actions  

I also think folks badly overrate C-Buck in 2009

While I agree with Rodney a lot, I firmly disagree that C-Buck was substantially better than Moreno.

Buckhalter had a higher YPA, but it was largely by breaking a few big runs. He also had a higher ratio of poor carries, and while Moreno had more fumbles in ‘09, that was largely bad luck (Ed Reed play, reach across goal-line, etc.) vs. Buck’s which were the result of bad ball-protection (WAS game fumble as a BIG example of Buck being loose with the ball).

Buck also has a style that better fit our o-line in ‘09… Folks said he was our fastest RB, and most his success came on outside runs where Clady and Harris were plowing the field. He also was running on 3rd down, etc. when the DEF was less likely to be thinking run or in nickel package. Moreno on the otherhand was asked to run between the tackles on 1st/2nd down, where Weigman/Hamilton, et. al. were being sorely abused in the ill-suited power-scheme transition. There was some breakdowns of this data last offseason, and basically I read that as showing that Moreno was frequently hurld into the teeth of the defense, while Buck had some success in more favorable conditions. It doesn’t mean Buck didn’t out perform Moreno… it just means that it wasn’t as straight a comparison as some would like it to be, and there were substantial mitigating factors to why Moreno’s outcomes were relatively poor in ’09.

by cjfarls on Jun 30, 2011 1:57 PM MDT up reply actions  

We need an upgrade there for sure

Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
Follow me on Twitter @MHR_KaptainKirk

by KaptainKirk on Jun 30, 2011 2:27 PM MDT up reply actions  

No Michael Bush...?

the internet? that thing is still around?
~Homer Simpson

by ktown on Jun 28, 2011 12:26 PM MDT reply actions  

He wasn't tagged

He will be a ufa. He was only given the highest rfa tag. Someone else was franchised.

by ocbroncomaniac on Jun 29, 2011 7:05 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions  

Bush will be a free agent and top of my list!

FIRE DE MAURICE SMITH...he can go suck dog balls for all I care!

NFLPA??? National Fools and Lame Pricks Association!

ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT WE HAVE IN TEBOW? Watching Kyle orton is like watching re-runs of the Brady Bunch...you always know whats going to happen and makes you feel sick at the end!

"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"

Harv Neptune.

by boydy2669 on Jun 29, 2011 8:19 AM MDT up reply actions  

Yes, Carolina Tagged Center Ryan Kalil

Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
Follow me on Twitter @MHR_KaptainKirk

by KaptainKirk on Jun 29, 2011 8:22 AM MDT up reply actions  

Michael Bush..

(Fox Sports’) Adam Caplan has been saying this since February, pointing to Bush’s rookie season, which was spent on the non-football injury list. That season is not expected to count toward Bush’s “accrued” years, leaving him with just three. In that case, Bush’s first- and third-round restricted tender would stick, and the Raiders would have no trouble retaining his services. Even if Bush is unrestricted, he seems very likely to spend 2011 in Oakland.

Link.

It would take a 1 and a 3 to snag up Bush. When you spend that much in resources, your next step is to lock him up long term. So you’re now spending 5M-6M per year on this guy and a first- and third-round draft pick. That’s insane, IMO.

We’re much better off bringing in an affordable time share RB this year. We could draft a another RB in the first round next year – he’d cost half as much money, less in draft resources and he’d be 4-5 years younger. I think Bush is about as “non-option” as they come.

Von. Doom. Pow!

by Rodney A on Jun 29, 2011 9:22 AM MDT up reply actions  

Thanks for finding that

I had just started looking when I double checked this thread. There of course is the possibility that the time might count toward accrued seasons, we will know more with the new CBA specifics. That is exactly the kind of situation that players would hope to get a little leeway with when accounting for the 4 years.

Change your opinions, keep to your principles; change your leaves, keep intact your roots.

by Jeremy Bolander on Jun 29, 2011 11:08 AM MDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I guess that's possible

Still seems pretty unlikely, though. And even if Bush is unrestricted, which again, I highly doubt he will be, it still seems far more likely than not that the Raiders will re-sign him.

Von. Doom. Pow!

by Rodney A on Jun 29, 2011 10:12 PM MDT up reply actions  

Don’t worry about the tenders to 4th and 5th year players. The new CBA will whipe those out. Guys like ryan Harris, Bush, Eric Weddle will be UFAs with no tenders. The tenders were for the 2010 season and only the 2010 season, the next CBA will not be subject to those weird 2010 rules.

Bush will be an UFA in about three weeks.

The Lockout bores me.

by McGeorge on Jun 29, 2011 9:09 PM MDT up reply actions  

Not after three years of accrued service

everyone with over four years are likely to have their tenders wiped out. Bush only has three years, so his tenders are likely to stick. Granted, we’re talking specifics here when before specifics are even finalized – so anything is still possible – but it’s highly likely that only players with four or more accrued seasons will be unrestricted.

Personally, I’d much rather spend the big bucks at DT instead of RB anyway.

Von. Doom. Pow!

by Rodney A on Jun 29, 2011 10:10 PM MDT up reply actions  

How does Barber fit into your grid? I think Dallas will cut him soon. He looked great against Denver in 2009.

Ricky Williams could be a good part time RB if the price is right.

I’m all about Sproles. The Tebow to Sproles screen play could be our 2011 version of the 2005 Jake Plumber naked bootleg. I loved when we ran that play.

No thought of resigning Maroney? I kid… I kid…

The Lockout bores me.

by McGeorge on Jun 28, 2011 12:30 PM MDT reply actions  

I dont see the screen play to bootleg comparison?

No save ammunition all bullets in gun now- Bruce Campbell
Stand up straight a man looks more confident when he is erect- Taj
I don't always drink and drive, but when I do, I prefer Dos Equis- BroncoPH
GO BRONCOS

by Taylor K on Jun 28, 2011 10:11 PM MDT up reply actions  

he's saying

that as you are watching either play develop, you can sense a monster play coming.

It sends shivers up your spine as you see Jake set his feet and start to load up the longball on that play, and he surmises we could get a similar glue-sniffing high watching tebow dump off the ball while sproles gets his body turned upfield with several pulling OL blocking out the LBs ahead of him.

Change your opinions, keep to your principles; change your leaves, keep intact your roots.

by Jeremy Bolander on Jun 29, 2011 8:40 AM MDT up reply actions  

Yep.

That was a bread N butter play for Jake. Tebow’s unique skill set lends itself to similar plays.

Orton’s play action is well done, but we use it too often to be similar to that Jake bootleg.

The Lockout bores me.

by McGeorge on Jun 29, 2011 9:17 AM MDT up reply actions  

Man...that description gave me goose-bumps

I loved watching that play…and the great thing about it was that you knew you’d see it at least 3 times a game and at least one of them would probably work. It never ceased to amaze me how defenses would know it was coming, but still be so out of position.

"Bombs dropping down overhead. Underground. It's instilled to want to live." -EV

by sadaraine on Jun 29, 2011 10:15 AM MDT up reply actions  

When they dialed it up in the 3rd quarter....

Instaboner.

Change your opinions, keep to your principles; change your leaves, keep intact your roots.

by Jeremy Bolander on Jun 29, 2011 11:12 AM MDT up reply actions  

Lance Ball was a practice squad player with Hall, Lance was promoted to the roster and hall is gone...

He is still in the developmenal stages of his young career and hasn’t reached his ceiling yet. Can he be like Drew-Jones? IDK but I see a lot of up side with this kid in Fox’s zb scheme especialy behind our OLine now. PS, you can talk to Lance on facebook, he is open to discussion if you like and I have been taliking to him and believe he will be a contibuting factor to our success this year. What really concerns me is LenDale White’s injury? Rarely do runningback rebound from Achilles heel injuries and I really don’t count on him making it either. if he does then we are in good shape and this is what I am hoping for him. I won’t get my hope up though. Getting Williams under what Ted Bartlett layed out over at IAOFM makes sense fro the broncos and may be a very viable option in a two-back set behind Clady, Beadles, Walton, Kuper, Franklin and R.Quinn…

One thought…Can Richard Quinn be transformed into a Full Back? he has the size, but IDK if he carries the strength to push a defensive line far enough to make a play…Just a thought.

by bfree2bronc on Jun 28, 2011 1:27 PM MDT reply actions  

Ball will never be like Jones-Drew. The only thing they have in common is their size. That's just my opinion of course.

I’m still pissed at Ball for dropping that wide open TD pass from Tebow in the Raiders game.

Tim Tebow wears 3WM and drinks Tuscan whole milk.

by BroncoMath101 on Jun 28, 2011 1:33 PM MDT up reply actions  

Sorry, I was just commenting on LB. With regards to Quinn though,

I don’t know if he can be. He should know how to block but how will he do at picking up the right blockers in space? I think he should definitely get some work as the back up FB just in case. It is an intriguing idea for sure.

I don’t think Spencer Larson is a very good FB to be honest so it might be worth a shot.

Tim Tebow wears 3WM and drinks Tuscan whole milk.

by BroncoMath101 on Jun 28, 2011 5:16 PM MDT up reply actions  

I think Larson will be a linebacker very soon

No save ammunition all bullets in gun now- Bruce Campbell
Stand up straight a man looks more confident when he is erect- Taj
I don't always drink and drive, but when I do, I prefer Dos Equis- BroncoPH
GO BRONCOS

by Taylor K on Jun 28, 2011 10:08 PM MDT up reply actions  

That's all good BM101...I'm just saying that Lance was on the practice squad in '09 and has some developing to do,

but I was impressed with his ability to move the ball when he got the chances. One bad pass miss doesn’t make a player, if it did then every player in the NFL would be on the chopping block. I asked Lance a couple of questions and he answered them for me. Here they are for you to read…

Bill Freeman 2:21pm Jun 28

Lance I know you are a very busy man, but I would like to ask you a question. I got into a discussion with a fellow fan over at Mile High Report about about you and I am wondering if you think yuou will have a bigger role in the position this year since Fox is implimenting the zone blocking scheme? I told the guy I thought you would and I see you developing quite nicely for the Broncos. One more if you could; Do you think LenDale can or will rebound from the Achilles tendon injury? Most RBs are never the same after such an episode? Thanks for the memories and more to come!

Lance Ball

Hopefully I will be more of a contributor to the offense this year. I got nothing but great reports from the coaching staff after the year. I’m just ready to do my job an ball out. As far as lendale I have no idea what’s up with him. Hopefully he can bounce back an contribute to the team.

by bfree2bronc on Jun 29, 2011 4:36 AM MDT up reply actions  

I really wouldn't be surprised if he got an expanded role considering Studesville hand picked him

and is very high on him. It’s cool that he answered your questions. I personally just don’t think he has the talent to see 30% or more of the carries. I hope I’m wrong.

Tim Tebow wears 3WM and drinks Tuscan whole milk.

by BroncoMath101 on Jun 29, 2011 6:44 AM MDT up reply actions  

Nice job, B

I think Lance just needs to get more opportunities, so a less than abbreviated Training Camp is the first big item on his to-do list heading into ’11.

Change your opinions, keep to your principles; change your leaves, keep intact your roots.

by Jeremy Bolander on Jun 29, 2011 8:43 AM MDT up reply actions  

He isn't a FA

But there are rumors he might be cut or traded, but that’s just rumors, no word from the Cowboys.

I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.

by Topher Doll on Jun 28, 2011 1:46 PM MDT up reply actions  

Can't hear from Cowboys or anyone during the lockout.

But it’s easy to connect these dots. He’ll be cut. They don’t have room or carries for him in the backfield after drafting DeMarco Murray.

The Lockout bores me.

by McGeorge on Jun 28, 2011 3:04 PM MDT up reply actions  

Agree McGeorge, but here is a thought

We all know that teams can not talk to players BUT there is no rule against an agent talking to the teams right?
I believe most of the FA and CFA’s have an idea of which teams has their interest.

by DLMyers on Jun 28, 2011 5:57 PM MDT up reply actions  

I would think that the lockout prevents team contact with players and agents to represent the players.

I could be wrong, but doubt it.

That doesn’t mean teams are discussing trades on contracts on the down low. When guys like Hanyesworth sign for huge deals one hour into UFA, it’s pretty clear many, many all NFL teams do business when their not supposed to.

The Lockout bores me.

by McGeorge on Jun 29, 2011 7:32 AM MDT up reply actions  

Let me just say.

That going forward the Cowboys do not intend to have any use for Barber. Without saying too much, he’s no longer on there depth chart.

Quit drinking the Kool-Aid and start drinking the good stuff, and everything is always alright.

by Chuck "DeadDrunk" Breedlove on Jun 29, 2011 5:42 PM MDT up reply actions  

Actually there is

Teams cannot have contact with agents.

I agree with both of you, though. Even if it’s not overt, I think free agents probably know which teams are interested. While the lockout was paused, for example, it’s likely that teams sent out immediate feelers before the league had the chance to tell them to stop. What’s the league going to say? Nothing. The team would just say, “Opps. we didn’t know you didn’t want us talking to these guys. The courts said we could, so we figured we better before another team beats us to it”.

Or maybe it’s through a dinner party that Mike McCoy has one night where a friend of Cullen Jenkins’ agent is present. maybe three beers into it he coyly hints that Jenkins is at the top of the wish list.

Anyway, I’m sure one way or the other, FAs and agents and coaches have all sent out feelers. Maybe as simple as saying you need a phone number for a guy to have it ready, but yeah, I think they have to know. they have to feel like everyone else is doing it so they’d be at a disadvantage if they didn’t do it also.

Von. Doom. Pow!

by Rodney A on Jun 29, 2011 10:22 PM MDT up reply actions  

Is it possible for you to grade Ball

even if it isn’t considered a “hard” grade with a large enough sampleset?

Change your opinions, keep to your principles; change your leaves, keep intact your roots.

by Jeremy Bolander on Jun 28, 2011 2:51 PM MDT reply actions  

I want to know more opinions

on Johnson, Minor and McLaughlin (sp). Might we have a diamond in the rough with one of these guys? Don’t know much about them and would appreciate some perspective on this.

by papasteven on Jun 28, 2011 3:01 PM MDT reply actions  

here are some grades for other running backs. i obviously didn't get to all of them.

Marion Barber – 63.4 career rating. he had a rating of 90.3 in 2006 and a rating of 73.9 in 2007.

Lance Ball – 38.1 career rating. he has about 5-7 “meaningful” games where he got some carries and was able to show his ability as a runner. he also has not scored a touchdown yet. he may be a decent backup, but there just isn’t enough playing time to really know how good he can be

by intelanalyst on Jun 28, 2011 3:11 PM MDT reply actions  

Ball Dropping the Ball

I think Ball has potential to be a filler-in. However, when Ball dropped the ball on a perfect Tim Tebow toss right in the breadbasket, in the end zone on a wheel route at Oakland last season, I and most Broncomaniacs lost a little love for the guy.

by RSH089 on Jun 28, 2011 4:05 PM MDT up reply actions  

it was more than a little for me

I’m just not impressed with Ball. It makes me a little sad to think we’ll be wasting precious TC time on him.

"Bombs dropping down overhead. Underground. It's instilled to want to live." -EV

by sadaraine on Jun 28, 2011 4:13 PM MDT up reply actions  

LeRon McLain?

Tim Tebow wears 3WM and drinks Tuscan whole milk.

by BroncoMath101 on Jun 28, 2011 5:17 PM MDT reply actions  

Grown man.

luckily im a bronco and a blazer fan

by chikndnnr on Jun 28, 2011 6:48 PM MDT up reply actions  

Good perpectives

We are rebuilding so I say do NOT break the bank on DeAngelo.
Lets find a diamond in the CFA or from the practice squads.
Building needs to be done year after year because if you say it takes three years to rebuild then your core players are now 28-30 years old.
EFX, keeping adding young pieces. Thank you

by DLMyers on Jun 28, 2011 6:05 PM MDT reply actions  

After DT, this is the position with the most questions

Deangelo is nice and if we signed him i’d get excited, but its not what we should do. He will sign top 5 money at his position and he is not in the top 10 at his position. Plus he has not proven to be a durable franchise back. So considering the cost, let Miami have him.

The thought of Tebows strength of setting up and more importantly finishing a screen and Sproles heartstopping ability in space is appealing. It seems like we would need an every down or close to it back for him to be worth itthough. Otherwise he is an expensive 3rd string back. If we had a Turner or S. Jackson he would be perfect. If we think Moreno can carry it 80% of the time, then fine, but im not sold that he will.

If there was a bell cow i’d pay top dollar, but other then that im cheap when it comes to backs. Hightower is the best bang for the buck. A combo of him and Moreno is fine, not awesome but awesome isn’t available this summer. Lendale coming back healthy is gravy, but im not holding my breath. Buck is gone.

Give me Moreno, Hightower, White and a couple hungry, young prospects and lets spend our money on the D.

Intelanylist, thanks for putting in the time and bringing up a good topic

luckily im a bronco and a blazer fan

by chikndnnr on Jun 28, 2011 7:22 PM MDT reply actions  

I think

our Oline will be good this year I think we need to have a rotation with Moreno and Williams Maybe even Tiki Barber? IDK I just know that Moreno lost my trust these past years I hope he is good I just would feel alot more comfortable with a backup plan

No save ammunition all bullets in gun now- Bruce Campbell
Stand up straight a man looks more confident when he is erect- Taj
I don't always drink and drive, but when I do, I prefer Dos Equis- BroncoPH
GO BRONCOS

by Taylor K on Jun 28, 2011 9:59 PM MDT reply actions  

Great post

Personally I just don’t see spending big money on a FA RB. It just doesn’t strike me as wise for a 4-12 team to spend big bucks on a RB that has only 2-3 prime years left. More often than not, RBs lose their mojo at about 30, especially the good ones that have been the consistent work horse. So I just can’t at all see spending big money to bring in a guy like DeAngelo Williams (28).

Hightower is maybe a possibility, but I see him as more of a third down back. I think we’re looking for a time share back, a guy that can potentially carry the load in case of injury. I think Jerome Harrison fits the bill nicely. he won’t be too expensive and seems like just the type of back we’re looking for. He’s also a relatively short term answer, meaning we could still draft an even cheaper replacement in a year or two.

I also like the idea of Kevin Smith. He hasn’t been able to stay healthy, but that just makes him cheap and low risk. If he ever manages to stay healthy, though, that payoff could be huge. So I want both Smith and Harrison. If one of them works out well… great. If not… no big deal. We just give ‘em the boot next year. Either way, we still didn’t make the SB, but this way we didn’t break the bank and we’re not married to an aging RB.

So if one of these guys works, we’re in great shape. If not, we’re still in position to just release them and draft a new RB next year. RBs have such short shelve lives, to me, it’s better to draft them, use ‘em up then trade them when their contract comes due. It’s not generally cost effective, IMO, to sign 28 year old RBs. A first round rookie can generally do as well as a guy like DeAngelo Williams, but he’ll be with your team for twice as long and only cost half the price.

Von. Doom. Pow!

by Rodney A on Jun 28, 2011 10:52 PM MDT reply actions  

I didn’t realize Williams was that old. 28 for RBs is like 35 for QBs or 33 for WRs and CBs. It’s pretty old.

Just one more reason to pass.

My boy Ronnie Brown is 29… Yikes. I don’t like him as much either.

The Lockout bores me.

by McGeorge on Jun 29, 2011 7:37 AM MDT up reply actions  

Michael Bush????

FIRE DE MAURICE SMITH...he can go suck dog balls for all I care!

NFLPA??? National Fools and Lame Pricks Association!

ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT WE HAVE IN TEBOW? Watching Kyle orton is like watching re-runs of the Brady Bunch...you always know whats going to happen and makes you feel sick at the end!

"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"

Harv Neptune.

by boydy2669 on Jun 29, 2011 8:21 AM MDT up reply actions  

Bush turned 27 last week. So a 3 year deal would something to consider.

The Lockout bores me.

by McGeorge on Jun 29, 2011 9:20 AM MDT up reply actions  

Great read!

It would be nice to see an added column for how many games were missed due to injury……If I’m not mistaken, Brown, Norwood and even Williams have missed a significant number of games.

I’m with the others who are tentative to waste a huge amount of money on a RB. I would hope the $$ is first spent on the few DT’s that will be available, and re-signing Harris. :)

Hopefully we start to see some camp action in 4 weeks!

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."
John Adams

by Broncotodd on Jun 29, 2011 7:19 AM MDT reply actions  

Nice job Intel.

FIRE DE MAURICE SMITH...he can go suck dog balls for all I care!

NFLPA??? National Fools and Lame Pricks Association!

ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT WE HAVE IN TEBOW? Watching Kyle orton is like watching re-runs of the Brady Bunch...you always know whats going to happen and makes you feel sick at the end!

"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"

Harv Neptune.

by boydy2669 on Jun 29, 2011 8:24 AM MDT reply actions  

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