Kyle Orton: From "throw in" to valuable commodity.
by boydy2669 on Jul 2, 2011 9:58 AM MDT
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PrintHi Y'All,
Just wanted to throw down some thoughts and get ALL of us thinking about the long term development of the team and how that relates to Kyle Orton. No, I am not speaking about who should start, but I am talking about how the value of Kyle Orton has grown during his tenure here at Denver. Its not going to be a long drawn out post with stats, quotes and other stuff (because frankly, my enthusiasm for football is on hiatus until FA starts) but just some bullet points to start some discussion.
Read along and hit me back with some thoughts:
1/ THE TIMELINE:
- The Cutler Trade: We get 2 x 1st round picks, a 3rd round pick and Kyle Orton is "thrown in". Now whether you love or hate Josh McDaniels, he saw something in Kyle Orton over Jason Campbell (where the Redskins had great interest in Cutler as well) that he saw as a trigger man for his offensive scheme. Orton bought smarts and toughness, 2 qualities essential in his system. I remember the reaction from the boards here regarding Kyle Orton, and the majority were pretty....should we say....negative. Cutler for Orton????? What???? Doc Bear, Rocko and few others saw a lot in Orton. I did some study and came up with that he was a pretty good throw in. There was still considerable debate whether Orton was a stop gap or starter.
- A QB Friendly System: McD is credited for the success of Matt Cassel, and the fan base and media start buying into the system that (Paraphrasing here) "make any QB a success".
- Pre- Season: Orton hears a Boo.....after a 3 INT performance in pre-season the Mile High Militia is calling for both McD's and Orton's blood. He plays better in the remaining games as he starts to pick up the system better and the restless natives are calmed a little, but still the majority is very doubtful.
- 6-0: Orton is being seen as a MVP candidate, and leads the Broncos to a 6-0 start. He is a tough leader, is dispelling many of the rumors of a bad arm. The Broncos look like a run away leader to make the play offs. Orton's stats are great, he makes minimal mistakes, and hes improving.
- Orton gets injured against the Redskins: This is where the wheels of our season fell off. We are subjected to Chris Simms, and Orton takes on the role of savior. He is SO much better than Chris Simms, and he shows his toughness by coming back in against the Chargers the next week. Is Orton this good? Does Simms suck that bad? Is it a combination of both!
- Broncos limp to 8-8 finish: Our defense collapses, we have injuries and Denver misses the play offs. Orton still plays well, apart from the last game of the season against the Chiefs.
- Denver draft a QB. Controversy starts!: But its not any QB...its Tim Tebow, perhaps the greatest college player of all time, and one of the most polarizing players we have ever seen. Orton is back into ANOTHER QB battle, but steps up his game and declared starter.
- No run game, no D leads to lots of throws: Orton has to carry the team, and the emerging play of Brandon Lloyd sees Orton put up HUGE numbers. Doubts start creeping in with the fan base: what do numbers mean when they dont equate to wins? Many see similarities with the 2008 season. Questions emerge on Orton's "clutchness".
- Orton plays injured: Orton has 2 below average outings against the Chiefs and Cardinals. He is pulled for the remaining 3 games due to mounting injuries.
- "The Messiah" arrives: Tebow starts the remaining 3, plays well and surprises the majority of the "experts" including leading the team on a comeback from 17 points down. The QB controversy starts raging even more!
2/ SOME QUESTIONS TO PONDER:
- Are the Broncos a team that can compete now? That answer will determine whether Orton gives the team more value as a starter or a tradable commodity.
- When we first got Kyle Orton would you ever believe we would be would be discussing getting a 2nd round pick for him?
- Does the compensation we would receive for Kyle Orton benefit the LONG TERM DEVELOPMENT of the team more than having him stay with the team and potentially lose him to FA next season?
- What happens to his value if we keep him and he loses the QB battle to Tebow or another QB?
- Was Orton's success attributed to the system?
- Does Orton bring so much more to the table than Tebow?
- How much more ceiling does Orton have left?
Happy 4th everyone!
Peace, Boydy.
This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR
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If the Eagles hang onto Kolb, this will increase Orton's value even more.
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Is it Free Agency yet? Wake me up when it starts!
Good post Dude
but you gotta start living in the now 69er! Let that trade go man, it’s the past and you know that we’re not allowed to post about the past here at the MHR. Josh McDaniels did a lot of stupid things while he was the HC/GM in Denver but I always liked Orton in college and thought that he had a lot of potential in the pros so I was excited that Da Bears “threw him in” to that debacle. He got a bad rap in Chi-town and was unfortunately part of the Bears offense which consisted of one of the worst O-Lines in the league and arguably the worst WR corps in the entire league (possibly ever). Which makes me appreciate what Cutler did with that pitiful and very deadly offense last year, while throwing fewer INTs then both Manning and Breese BTW.
I was not excited to see Cutler ran out of town but was happy with the addition of Orton. He was young, fresh, had a winning record and had been playing well in a pro style offense for around 8 years before coming to Denver. I thought that Orton and the Broncos could have had a very successful future together if McDaniels would have been able to get over himself and actually help Orton and the team out by building a solid defense, leaving the offensive alone and acquiring decent running backs. But McDaniels wasted several picks in the draft including a first rounder on DT and proceeded to use three picks for Tebow instead of building a great offense and defense.
I’d like to know what McDaniels really thought about Orton and if he ever actually saw a future for Orton in Denver. Or if he was just a “stop gap” until McDaniels could find “his guy” because we all know that McDaniels had to be surrounded by “his guys” and found it very hard to coach, teach, mentor or lead people and players that didn’t kiss is butt or think exactly like him.
You mentioned that you thought of Orton as an “above average QB” so in your mind does Cutler fall in the same category as Orton or better or worse?
The Defense will be vastly improved next year and esprit de corps will return to the team so I think the Broncos could compete now and would be a more successful team in the near future if Orton was the starter for obvious reasons. It would help the teams success to have a run stuffing DT since the rest of the west can pound the rock though.
No I can’t believe that the Broncos are considering a trade for Orton or that he may be worth a 2nd round pick because I can’t believe that Josh McDaniels drafted Tebow while the Broncos had Orton and so many other more glaring needs.
Of course the Broncos have to trade Orton now if they can get a 2nd rounder, Josh McDaniels made sure of that. It’s almost impossible to pay and please both QB’s and the Tim Tebow fan train is rolling full steam ahead, downhill, without breaks, in the rain….whooowhooo. It would be suicide for the front office to either not start Tebow or Trade Tebow now. So yes it benefits the team in the long run to trade Orton. And as long as Josh McDaniels doesn’t have control of that 2nd round pick, I’m sure that it will be used wisely.
Of course Orton’s value goes down if he does stay in Denver and doesn’t perform well. At this point in the year, Orton would not lose the starting job to either Tebow or fancy boy if he did stay in Denver. Not a chance.
Of course Orton’s success was partially a result of Josh McDaniels system but he still had to do his part and had to do it on a disgruntled team, with rookies starting on the O-line, a half assed/unreliable RB and a horrible defense that kept the pressure on him. I’m sure that Chris Simms would not have been able to handle it, that’s for damn sure. I hope that I missed all of the MHR bloggers persecuting Josh McDaniels for bringing Chris on board (or was that quietly swept under the rug too?) because I haven’t heard much about that boneheaded move and still have a hard time believing that McDaniels brought that Left handed joker to the Denver Broncos to play QB and had the nerve to pay him money. Also, do you think it was a coincidence that Simms was busted for Weed in St. Louis…hummmm???
I think Orton and Tebow both bring a lot to the table and I think that the Broncos can win with both (if surrounded by a good team!!) Orton knows the playbook (which apparently has been brought back to a manageable scale by the new coaching staff. Maybe Josh has the big pickup truck syndrome with the playbook. Seems like the smallest most insecure guys drive the biggest trucks doesn’t it? I mean really, do you have to make this rocket science and then call people stupid when they don’t have a degree in quantum physics? This is football, KISS. Put the best players on the field, know your players, play to their strengths, coach, mentor, teach, lead and the wins will follow.
Of course Orton can win a championship (so can most other professional QB’s can, except Brady Quinn) if surrounded by a solid team and competent coaching staff.
Boydy!
Is this actually you? I can’t believe you said all those good things about Kyle Orton. I guess it truly is a topsy-turvy world.
It’s really scary when you have a moment of temporary sanity.
Nelson DeMille
Mate, I was actually one of the first to support Kyle Orton if you want to go back thru the archives. AS I have said all along, I am looking at long term development of team, not whether Orton is good or not. He is an above average QB ...
…who, I think, fits better with another team, like Arizona. The parallels between him and Warner are similar.
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Is it Free Agency yet? Wake me up when it starts!
I'm with ya there Boydy
I was a HUGE Orton supporter at the beginning as well. The first Raiders loss (debacle) last year did something unholy to my soul…. I haven’t seen my Broncos limp around on the field THAT BAD in a long time. I agree man, Orton’s skillset would work beautifully in the desert. If he stays, great… if he doesn’t, great as well. I’m pretty sure we drafted a future franchise player / big contributer to our run game / heart and soul of the team / Spartan, when we drafted Tim. Will Orton ever wear those hats for our team, doubtful but you never know.
"When Tim Tebow does pushups, he's not pushing himself up, he's pushing the world down."
"Gear down there big shifter This is the "No Bull" review man…" a total Lebowski-esque one liner from Sadaraine, whether he realizes it or not - comedic gold.
I think the best option for the Broncos is to trade Orton.
He will be gone after this year anyway. Might as well get what you can by trading him now. I am fully confident that he will be worth a 2nd rounder. He is a proven QB and was on a record setting pace last year until the injuries started his downslide. I think teams realize that with the right kinda team around him he could do some big things. The fans might not appreciate him, but I believe the GMs and head coaches understand what this guy can bring to their team.
Besides, Tebow is just too damn exciting to not have him out there. I am not a big believer in the whole let’s have our QB sit for 2-3 years. That’s hogwash. I think 1 yr. is max. Let the rookie come in and learn what it is going to take to be a successful QB. Watch and learn how to study film and then how to apply that to game days. Get a feel for what the day to day schedule is going to be like and the work habits you will have to form to be successful. After that 1st year I think you have maxed out what you can learn without actually applying it to real game time situations. You can do all the sudying you want but if you can’t go out there and test yourself on the things you have been studying what good does it do for you.
by Bradley James on Jul 2, 2011 11:07 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
I agree.
Mostly because of you saying “He will be gone after this year anyway.” Because that’s true. Even if we choose to keep Orton as the starter and plays very well… will Denver be willing to pay him the type of money he’s finally proven he’s worth? Or will we get beat out by a higher bidder (because frankly, there are much more QB desparate teams out there – especially if they rookie/FA they picked up this year turns out to be a failed hope). Keeping Orton gives us – at most – a competitive starter for one year (and possibly a long-term contract if he shows even more significant improvement under Fox). That is BEST case scenario; but if he does worse and de-values himself (by not earning the starting job against Quinn and Tebow, or just flat out falling apart in Fox’s offense) than Orton will likely net us nothing: no wins, no trade value, and no future potential. Trading Orton may not give us the BEST case scenario, but there is much less risk involved. We hand the offense over to either Quinn or Tebow who both have yet to prove if they can be successful starting QBs in this league, but at least we can get that future second round pick (or multiple picks) as ammunition to trade up next year and pull the QB of the future – if Tebow doesn’t succeed, which I don’t see happening.
So that’s what I think. There is risk/reward to either scenario, keeping Orton or Trading, but I think its higher Risk higher Reward to keep him. Because he is basically as unproven in Fox’s offense as both the other QBs, why not go with the youth movement and give the team some hard currency they can use next year (whether Tebow succeeds or fails) to help us fill a need.
"It is better to be rougly right than precisely wrong." - John Maynard Keynes
"Excellence can be obtained; if you care more than others think is wise…risk more than others think is safe…dream more than others think is practical…expect more than others think is possible." - Anonymous Author
by Alexander Wall on Jul 4, 2011 12:31 AM MDT up reply actions
Nice AW...Orton maybe the best SHORT TERM answer but h is probably not the best LONG TERM answer moving forward!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Is it Free Agency yet? Wake me up when it starts!
Don't get me wrong.
I believe Tebow has just as much chance to be successful NOW as Orton does, but its not the NOW that i’m worried about. We’re retooling our team, changing schemes and so forth. I don’t expect us to bring a Lombardi home this year – which is another reason I am in favor of starting Tebow and seeing what he’s capable of and giving him much-needed experience.
The issue isn’t NOW, it’s later. We know what we can get for Orton NOW. We don’t know what we can get for Orton later. And we don’t know whether Orton will continue to be successful for us later either (I am pretty sure he would do phenominal with a better defense and successful run game). Chances are that Orton would be an amazing choice for next year. But then his contract ends. Then what? He’ll likely go somewhere else where he’ll get offered much more than we can afford to pay him – since we’re investing more money into the defense and we’re already paying 1st round money to a QB.
The raw of the deal isn’t this year, its that in 2012 we won’t be able to afford to pay Orton the kind of money he’s definitely worth in the right circumstances. There will be other bidders, and unless we overpay – we’ll likely lose that war, and who wants to play the gessing game in 2012. I’d rather trade Orton for something that can help us out even more on D – if Tebow succeeds; or will help us have ammunition to trade up for another swing in the first round at a QB (possibly Luck) – if Tebow doesn’t do well.
The Tebow vs Orton debate isn’t about who starts in 2011, its about who starts in 2012; and its the answer to that question that will likely have us trading Orton away if at all possible.
Whew! That was a lot to say.
"It is better to be rougly right than precisely wrong." - John Maynard Keynes
"Excellence can be obtained; if you care more than others think is wise…risk more than others think is safe…dream more than others think is practical…expect more than others think is possible." - Anonymous Author
by Alexander Wall on Jul 4, 2011 3:08 PM MDT up reply actions 3 recs
100% agree. Great post. i have been saying for months its about the LONG TERM DEVELOPMENT of our team...not this year only!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Is it Free Agency yet? Wake me up when it starts!
Excellent review.
You can be dumb... that's ok! There are many dumb people.
You can be an a$$hole... that's ok! There are many of these as well.
Unfortunately you cannot be both...
Ok... prove me wrong.
Nice job boydy! Rec'd!
Well written and fair appraisal of the trade. Ironic how the better QB in the trade now plays for the Broncos. Imo, the best move that McD made during his two years in Denver. Without question, the best thing for Kyle’s career in the NFL.
I’m in the camp that believes the Broncos already have a handshake agreement in place to trade Orton. He is a perfect fit for the Cards.
Good read.
I think if we are looking at the long term development of this team we need to trade Orton. A 2nd round pick can get us a good-to-great player in next years draft whereas if we keep him as the starter this year we lose him for nothing next year. I can’t imagine us extending his contract even if we go 8-8 next year. If we make the playoffs then that’s another story but I’m not sure anyone has that as a realistic expectation. It just seems to make so much sense to get value out of him now and see what our 1st round QB can do. If he can’t handle the job then we can find a solution to that question sooner rather than later. Whatever happens to Kyle (stay or go) I wish him the best.
Tim Tebow wears 3WM and drinks Tuscan whole milk.
Great, objective read Boydy!
When Kyle first came to Us, I did my research as well, and wasn’t disappointed to say the least. I went to six days of Training Camp and one game last season and saw one other person with an Orton jersey, besides myself, in that time. I was glad he got to be a Bronco, and of course, would have been happier if We had some better outcomes.
It seems that he’s always been underappreciated by fans, and underrated as a team player. But that seems to be coming to an end.
Especially if he gets to go play for the Vikings. ( ;
A pessimist sees the difficulties in every opportunity.
An optimist sees the opportunities in every difficulty.
- Winston Churchill
First (and only, in our lifetimes) team to three consecutive SB wins (perhaps and then some)!!!! ( =
by PearlJamBroncoGFunk on Jul 2, 2011 12:56 PM MDT reply actions
It really is interesting to me that
Orton, a late round pick, would start his rookie year due to bad luck, sit his 2nd year, start his 3rd year, beating out two vets, one of whom was a 1st round pick (Grossman and Griese). Gets traded, as you say as a throw in, earns the starting job over a a guy taken in an earlier round (Simms). He than plays well in Denver, getting 87.2 QB rating, 41 TD’s, 21 Int, and 7455 yards, those are decent numbers. But being part of a terrible 2010 team didn’t help his own mistakes. Now a 4th round pick has increased his value to an estimated 2nd round. That’s about 400 points on a draft scale.
While I can’t wait for the Orton saga to be over, his story is kind of a story about a player outperforming his expectations. While I will be happy to get Tebow on the field, I think Orton was one of the better Bronco QB’s we’ve had, and I’m happy he spent some time here.
Overall, good post Boydy, you ask and answer some good questions.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by Topher Doll on Jul 2, 2011 2:17 PM MDT reply actions 5 recs
Some great observations!
Midway through his senior year at Purdue, KO was in the Heisman conversation. Then he got injured and you guessed it played hurt to finish out the year. That’s why he slipped down in the draft to the 4th round. During the preseason of 2005, Grossman was injured and Orton was elevated to 2nd string behind Chad Hutchinson. By the 2005 opener, Orton was named the starter over Hutchinson. Orton had a 10-5 record as the starter(led the team into the playoffs) until Rex Grossman returned from injury. Orton sat behind Grossman and Griese for the next 29 regular season games. KO was given a chance at the end of the 2007 season and started the final three games going 2-1. In 2008, he beat out Grossman for the starting job and went 9-6.
Yeah man...you got to think "what if" if Orton had been given the reins. but then, he would have never come to Denver...I am glad he was a Bronco. He has lots to be proud of!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Is it Free Agency yet? Wake me up when it starts!
Agreed, but it's in both his and our best interest to move on
Let him start somewhere he’s secure in his spot and let’s see what Tebow has.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
I agree man.....our team needs to get young and see if Tebow is the answer. I wish nothing but the best for Orton. happy 4th Max!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Is it Free Agency yet? Wake me up when it starts!
Some Chicago fans believe that the Bears win the 2006 SB with Orton or Griese as QB
but no way Bears invest a 1st round pick in Grossman and swallow their pride by admitting sexy Rex was a bust.
Yep....with that defense, the bears could have won with Orton...Grossman sucked...in fact, they could have beaten the Packers with orton last year...but then again, I think Cutler sucks!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Is it Free Agency yet? Wake me up when it starts!
Eh some do, some don't
Orton’s more popular over at WCG than Grossman, but they have about an even view of the two, at least from my time over there.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Thanks Grind! Happy 4th to you and yours my friend!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Is it Free Agency yet? Wake me up when it starts!
Thanks AZ...Happy 4th my friend to you and your family. Have a great one! Always love your stuff and, even if we dont agree, I enjoy our to and fro!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Is it Free Agency yet? Wake me up when it starts!
After watching the Chiefs turn it around last year anything is possible.
The Broncos had a very good draft and i would expect at least 5 or 6 of them to start this year. Fox is just what the Bronco needed, a coach who will demand more from the running game, and a defensive minded coach as well. That’s two things the broncos needed to improve, now it’s all up to the players. I still think the Broncos should look for a NT via the FA market and another running back wouldn’t hurt as well as resigning Harris at RT.
Here’s a video of the type of play you might get from some of the rookies. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXbLoaLSgYE&feature=related
Warning: If you're reading this it has been censored.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
Nice video
What did Berry do the other 400 or so plays he was in on?
j/k. I really wanted the Broncos to draft him. He’ll be a pain for us for a long time.
It’s really scary when you have a moment of temporary sanity.
Nelson DeMille
Heh
If he wasn’t in the game he was cheering harder than anyone else on the sideline:P Yeah he faced some good TE’s early on in the season and was beat often, cost us like 3 TD’s in the first 4 games. But he came on strong during the 2nd half of the season, and I expect him to be one of the top 3 safeties in the league this year.
That’s what nice about a team that rebuilding, you get to watch these talented (if you draft good players) grow together as a unit. These young guys play with a little more fire, even if they make a mistake they’ll learn from it and move on.
Warning: If you're reading this it has been censored.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
God I hope you are correct....
I do not feel that Orton has much trade value. When National experts talk about QB’s that might be available and that other teams covet KO’s name is not in the top 5. No way he is an above average QB. He is a robotic passing machine. I all the setting a perfect and not a single variable arises he is a great passer. He can’t make adjustment or react to anything. So I hope there is some one besides the Denver semi-pro team or Vic Lombardi;s flag football weekenders who see value in KO. We as Bronco fans always tend to over rate our players. But guys most teams don’t want the cast off QB of the NFL second worst team. Please let me be wrong. but I am fearful we will have to sit through another year of mechanical KO football. People say play Tebow and if he sucks draft Andrew Luck. My fear is playing Orton being bored to tears and still getting to draft Andrew Luck.. But I always said our LB’s were the worst in football will have 2 new starters there and perhaps even 3 please trade DJ he might actually have some value.
oldcoachB
"The will to win, the desire to succeed, the urge to reach your full potential...
these are the keys that will unlock the door to personal excellence."
Wow oldcoachB, I expected better
Just go to ESPN or NFL.com, both sites have recently talked about Orton’s trade value, and SI has ranked him above everyone besides Palmer, McNabb and Kolb. I got all this and I spend almost no time looking. A quick 5 min. search yielded these results. As for your assessment of Orton, you point out his strengths as weaknesses and don’t even bring up his actual weaknesses. One of the things he was most praised on by McD and his WR’s was his ability to make quick reads and his pocket presence, but he lacks mobility to escape pressure. And when you say we as Bronco fans overrate our players, I think it’s the exact opposite for QB’s. The Broncos have underrated all their QB’s since Plummer. Cutler was never loved by fans, and Orton was never trusted.
And then you say you want to trade DJ, our best LB by far, add in ESPN, Pro Football Focus, Pro Football Reference, and FO all think our LB’s did an above average job with the lineman we had. Please, I don’t understand how any of this is backed up with fact, which is something most here expect from you.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
What is your definition of fact. ...
I did not check right before I posted and more recently Orton has begun to be mentioned after Kolb, McNabb, Hasselbeck, Palmer, However the teams that are in the market all see Orton as their 2nd or third option. I see nothing you say that discounts that. I have been in the minority about the ratings of our Lb’s vseres our DL but it appears that our new coach agrees whicH is why we chose 2 LB’s in the draft that was supposed to be strong on the DL. Maxwellsdemon you work your ass off for this blog and I appreciate the research and stats that you present. but frankly In my opinion stats are for geeks who lack the natural understanding of the game and need crutches to support what in FACT are nothing more than opinions. Also had this been a post and not a comment I would be fine with your agressive criticism but put the fangs away. The author of the post who respects my opinion asked for discussion not a researched thesis.
oldcoachB
"The will to win, the desire to succeed, the urge to reach your full potential...
these are the keys that will unlock the door to personal excellence."
by oldcoachB on Jul 2, 2011 8:00 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
I haven't seen Hasselbeck once be mentioned as a top QB avaliable
But then again I only searched for about half an hour. As for my standing by stats, I would toss them aside any day, but I know that both statistically and from film study, our LB’s are good, most people realize that, and while I would gladly change my opinion, I see no evidence that our LB’s struggled. I also apologize if you felt I was coming off agressively, it wasn’t written that way, tone on the internet is often misinterpreted.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
I love you man it was as long as two months ago that the NFL network had Hasselbeck as the number 2 QB that might be moving behind Kolb. However the reporter might have been his brother. We must not be watching the same film ,
as far as the LB’s are concerned . How can you have good LB play with such poor defense against the rush. You say DL I say LB’s have a great 4th you are a tremendous asset to MHR.
oldcoachB
"The will to win, the desire to succeed, the urge to reach your full potential...
these are the keys that will unlock the door to personal excellence."
I think our LB's played as well as they could behind a DL that couldn't hold anything back
And because of that, our LB’s looked below their level of skill. Either way, without an improved DT, even with new LB’s I doubt we will see much improvement in our run defense. I do think highly of you, that is why I was a bit shocked by your comment because it seemed to lack any backing to it. Thanks for your thoughts.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
You would think a bell would ring after soooo many times this has been said.
You can be dumb... that's ok! There are many dumb people.
You can be an a$$hole... that's ok! There are many of these as well.
Unfortunately you cannot be both...
Ok... prove me wrong.
I agree. The trade value isn't there at all.
People are crazy around here…Orton will be starting Week 1 – Tebow by Week 6. Orton just doesn’t have what it takes….we all saw that over his last 20 games as a pro.
Scream your disagreement with me all you want. Talk to me again midseason.
thanks for defending me Tim I feel the need to be in full pads.
oldcoachB
"The will to win, the desire to succeed, the urge to reach your full potential...
these are the keys that will unlock the door to personal excellence."
What i saw was a QB and WR core that played way above the rest of a shit team to be frank about it.
I think Orton is good enough to get the job done on a solid team, but nothing about the Broncos was solid last year other than the WR’s and Champ.
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by CPT.Caveman on Jul 4, 2011 12:14 AM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
You always here the mantra that the quarterback is the one that get's a team to the playoffs and beyond...
That may be true more ways than ine, but when a team has so many pieces of the puzzle missing that a clear picture can’t be made of it, then the failures can not be all laid at the feet of the quarterback. Examples; The OLine in ‘09 with teh veterans Hamilton and Weigmann were aging and hamilton had one too many concussions and then in ’10 we went with two rookie starters which is always iffy and it was, and to go along with that, Clady wasn’t up to 100% either along with Harris. Now that this OLine has a year under it’s belt together and most likely going back to what they know, the zone blocking scheme, I see this part of the offense in a tweaking mode still, but they should prosper some from the experience they all got together last year…I look for good things on here.
The wide receiver group went through a time getting adjusted to Orton’s passes and most notably with Eddie Royal. He seemed to be getting it last year and had a better season. This year I look for good thing with him and hope someone (Vaughn or Willis to relieve him with the return duties. Can’t for get about Cutler’s, Marshall’s and Scheffler’s behavior either, it was plain to see that it had ill effects on the team. Now we have a group (Decker, Britt, Willis and D Thomas) of young talent leaning their roles as an eventual potential NFL star…I look for good things to come from them.
The running backs have struggles behind this OLine and with injuries and becoming a jelled unit. Lance Ball has progressed since coming off the practice squad and I look for more improvemen this year if he sticks with the team. Moreno has some talent and will need to display it this year. Holding out for some of TC didn’t help his cause and he has been injury prone too. LenDale White is a ‘BIG’ question mark and from what I have read, his type of injury is so hard to recover from. I don’t hold too much hope in him and if he does rebound from it then we will the better for it. He can bust peoples chops when he is healthy. There are pieces to that puzzle missing and will have to be found from somehwere. The right kind of free agent or agents can really put a fire under this group…The situation is iffy here.
The bottom line is Kylle orton can lead a team to the playoffs and beyond if the other 10 players on offense and on the side the defense improve drastically. I think we are headed in the right direction with this group of players. Just a few pieces and we could pretty much be set….
I would be all for keeping, signing and go forward with Orton if we didn’t draft Tim Tebow. McD saw something in this kid that made him believe in him and to be frank about it…I do too. So, to help the Broncos and Kyle orton the best thing the team could do at this point in time is trade Orton or trade Tebow, can’t have two bulls in the yard. They will eventually clash and tear a locker room right down the middle with part siding with Orton and part siding with Tebow…have a great 4th everybody…
by bfree2bronc on Jul 2, 2011 7:40 PM MDT reply actions 9 recs
That my friend pretty much says it all................... Rec'd
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+100 bfree
One QB has to go and Orton has better trade value that Tebow. Rec’d!
Orton has a way better trade value than Tebow....
No save ammunition all bullets in gun now- Bruce Campbell
Stand up straight a man looks more confident when he is erect- Taj
I don't always drink and drive, but when I do, I prefer Dos Equis- BroncoPH
GO BRONCOS
Awesome Bill! Happy 4th my friend!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Is it Free Agency yet? Wake me up when it starts!
We will never agree on Orton but your point about 2 bulls in the locker room is a good one.
By the way there were many other teams with more injuries than we had so I don’t give Orton any pass for that. But our D was so bad we basically had to score every possession Kyle could lead the Steelers, Patrioits to the playoffs/.
oldcoachB
"The will to win, the desire to succeed, the urge to reach your full potential...
these are the keys that will unlock the door to personal excellence."
by oldcoachB on Jul 2, 2011 7:47 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
I think Kyle could lead any team in the right situation...
We can all agree that he has a passing game, but that only goes so far if you struggle in the running attack and teams were quick to scheme around it. Cassel a playoff quarterback? Yikes! His running attack and defense elevated his game and helped them to the AFC West Championship, not Matt Cassel…
Reply Fail geez
Read comment below, sorry.
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Cassel is a playoff QB
While having a great QB is nice you could look for the right QB forever if you’re to picky. M.Cassel and Orton are both QB’s that you can build a team around and be successful in a ball control type of offense. Like I’ve said before give Orton a good running game and a good defense and you’ll win alot of game including the big one. I think M.Cassel is better than Orton because of his ability to run with the ball, plus 27 TD’S and 7 INT’s are pretty good numbers coming from what most in here would label a average QB. I also think that M.Cassel will prove alot of disbelievers wrong this year and in terms of raw talent on both sides of the ball, the Chiefs field one of the better teams in the league right now. But I would be happy with either guy and i think that both QB’s could win S.B’s with the right players around them.
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by CPT.Caveman on Jul 3, 2011 8:16 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Maybe on paper, but Matt Cassel was helped tremendously with your running attack.
With a solid running game the receivers will be more open…No?
What WR's
Other than Bowe we had nothing at WR, T.Moeaki TE was 2nd in receptions and J.Charles was 3rd.
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Just imagine what Orton could have done with a running game like the Chiefs.
That’s why i will continue to argue on his behalf, but i also realize with Tebow in the picture it changes things.
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27 TDs and 7 INTs is excellent
I didn’t realize his numbers were that good last year. The running game is obviously a boon, but as you say, Caveman, he didn’t have a deep receiving corps. Frankly, if we hadn’t drafted Tebow, and if he didn’t have such sky-high potential, I’d be content with Orton going forward. Y’all are pretty well set with Cassell.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
Thank you Spock
I hated the Cassel trade at first, but he has proved me wrong and continues to improve.
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The trade can be described as Cutler and Johny Knox for Ayers, Dick Quinn, D Thomas and Orton.
In that group, Orton is the best player, maybe even better than Cutler. That said, Cutler and Knox are the 2nd and 3rd best players.
Rich Quinn is a debacle of a bust. Ayers is a so-so starter and DT is injury prone and lacks impact. It’s a weird trade and a good reason why it’s not usually a wise idea to trade proven players for draft picks.
I want to trade Orton for a 2012 2nd rounder, but I should be careful what I wish for. If McD were still the GM… I’d be in favor of having as few picks as possible so Josh couldn’t do something that made me want to cry.
Good for Orton to have enhanced his rep and made some money with his move to Denver. He likely has one more large contract to sign.
The Lockout bores me.
by McGeorge on Jul 3, 2011 8:20 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Seeing McD leave Denver made me want to cry:P
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I’ll feel the same way about Haley in two years. At some point, the Cheifs will get a coach that can match their GM.
The Lockout bores me.
You'll be cryin' in 2 years when Haley has a S.B ring on his finger, and I'll be saying I told ya so.
One question, isn’t it tough to purposely misspell Chiefs when you could just type it right in the first place? McGoerge hmmmmmmmmmm.
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Todd Hailey isn’t leading the Chiefs to any Super Bowl victories.
Follow me on Twitter: ballinnickcast
Xbox360 gamertag: SnipeMeHarder
"They said I couldn't be a high school quarterback, they said I couldn't get a D1 scholarship. You're not good enough, you're not skilled enough. They said I couldn't win a heisman. They said I couldn't win a national championship. They said I wouldn't be a first round draft pick. They said I couldn't play in the league. Appreciate that." - Tim Tebow.
No but he'll be coaching them to one.
One day you guys will listen to me because I’m right about a lot of things, and not think I’m full of shit because I like a rival team.
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It wouldn’t matter if you liked the Bills, Ravens, or 49ers. Anybody who thinks the Chiefs are headed towards the Super Bowl are wrong. My reasoning is simple.
1. You lost Charlie Weis. Whether any Chief fans wants to admit it or not, Weis is 10 times the offensive genius that Hailey is.
2. Your schedule isn’t a cake walk anymore. Buffalo and Cleveland are turning into Indianapolis and Pittsburgh. Say goodbye to San Francisco, St Louis, Arizona, and Seattle. Say Hello to the Jets, New England, the Dolphins, and Buffalo.
3. Matt Cassel just isn’t that good. Chiefs fans can show me his touchdown-interception ratio all they want. He threw 58% completions and threw 6.9 yards per completion. It will only go down now that Weis isn’t there.
4. Average Defense.
I don’t know how anyone thinks the Chiefs are going to the Super Bowl anytime soon. I predict a fall this year. Likely 7-9, 8-8..
Follow me on Twitter: ballinnickcast
Xbox360 gamertag: SnipeMeHarder
"They said I couldn't be a high school quarterback, they said I couldn't get a D1 scholarship. You're not good enough, you're not skilled enough. They said I couldn't win a heisman. They said I couldn't win a national championship. They said I wouldn't be a first round draft pick. They said I couldn't play in the league. Appreciate that." - Tim Tebow.
First off it's Haley not Hailey, and that's just one thing on a long list that you'll be wrong about.
1. When C.Weis came to the Chiefs everyone said he sucked, and now that he’s gone he’s a genius. He failed as a college HC and he failed the Chiefs when was more worried about being the OC at the college his son went too than game planning against the Ravens.
2. M.Cassel will prove you wrong as well, he only had one WR (Bowe) that caught more balls than our TE Moeaki who was 2nd in receptions and J.Charles who was 3rd. The Chiefs offense is built around the short too intermediate passing game, we’re not a long ball team. Bowe paired with Baldwin along with Moeaki and our running game will be hard to stop this coming year. M.Cassel just isn’t that good is some biased B.S.
3. The Chiefs defense went from last to the middle of the pack, and with the players we drafted and R.Crennel the Chiefs defense will be top 10 this year even with the tough schedule(which is the only thing you’re right about).
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We obviously won’t see eye to eye. You can think whatever you want, but excuses only go so far.
Denver made the same mistake the Chiefs fans are making. You make excuses except for seeing situations for what we are. We lost Mike Nolan. You lost Charlie Weis. Both are excellent coordinators and both are being replaced by less then adequate people. Denver’s defense suffered. The Chiefs offense will too.
I won’t argue with you about Matt Cassel. You’ll see that in time, I am correct.
You think drafting Allen Bailey, Justin Houston and Jerrell Powe are the difference between an average defense and a top 10 defense? Well, to each his own I guess.
Follow me on Twitter: ballinnickcast
Xbox360 gamertag: SnipeMeHarder
"They said I couldn't be a high school quarterback, they said I couldn't get a D1 scholarship. You're not good enough, you're not skilled enough. They said I couldn't win a heisman. They said I couldn't win a national championship. They said I wouldn't be a first round draft pick. They said I couldn't play in the league. Appreciate that." - Tim Tebow.
With the running game the Chiefs have Joe Blow could call the plays.
Common sense tells me when your QB has a top 3 rush game, and only has one legit WR he’s not going to look that fancy. I believe the Chiefs offense will be pretty damn good, and if Baldwin plays to his full potential will be better than last years, in fact i know they will. Call your guy what you want I agree he sucked, but Haley has turned this team around and I have confidence in every coach involved. Oh and yes i do believe those guys with our players we have now will be top 10.
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Just a typo actually. Enjoy the backslide in 2011 with no NFC West, but a 1st place schedule to face. Beating NE one the road is just a little tougher than Buffalo.
The Lockout bores me.
I agree
The schedule is tough but it’s time to find out what this team is made of. I think the Chiefs have addressed several key needs with this years draft and will be improved.
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Worth of Orton
I will be up front; I want Tebow to start. The reason, he does not seem to be a player that will choke and Orton does. Everyone in the league that has watched Orton can tell he will choke. Why Chicago wanted too and was more than willing to trade him. In my opinion take whatever you can for Orton and see if Tebow can develop. I think he can, but only time will tell. With Orton when the game is on the line he will blow it. Remember what they said about Elway until the drive.
Richard Antill - Fan in Poky Idaho
I am recommending this at #9
10….. anyone???? I have a feeling this post will far exceed that. Awesome job mate, and it was great to see your writing style/mind in action again. ARGH, this lockout needs to go get bent.
"When Tim Tebow does pushups, he's not pushing himself up, he's pushing the world down."
"Gear down there big shifter This is the "No Bull" review man…" a total Lebowski-esque one liner from Sadaraine, whether he realizes it or not - comedic gold.
Thanks Pale Horse. happy 4th man!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Is it Free Agency yet? Wake me up when it starts!
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/peter_king/04/05/trade/index.html
Aside from the late haggling between the Bears and Broncos over the price, I do know some facts that haven’t been out there — I don’t think — yet. The five things I know for sure, from talking to those in the middle of the Cutler trade discussions in the three days since the deal went down:
1. The key to the trade was Kyle Orton. Laugh if you want, but it’s the absolute truth. McDaniels looked hard at tape of the available quarterbacks from teams that made serious offers, players like Orton, Washington’s Jason Campbell and Tampa Bay’s Luke McCown. Every one of those teams was in the ballpark with an offer of at least two first-round draft picks and a quarterback.
But as the deal went down, McDaniels, who watched every offensive snap of more than 10 Bears games with Orton playing, got more and more impressed with Orton’s arm, his decision-making and his ability to extend plays when the pocket broke down. You can think and I can think it’s crazy he didn’t like Campbell — who got Washington off to a 6-2 start last year — more than he liked Orton, but it’s the unvarnished truth. McDaniels thinks he can win with Orton.
Thanks Hoop...I mentioned that in the post and its good you found the back up. I appreciate it. Happy 4th!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Is it Free Agency yet? Wake me up when it starts!
When Cutler quit on the Bears during a playoff game
that vindicated once and for all McDaniels’ decision to trade him. He saw something he liked in Orton and something he didn’t like in Cutler. Whatever his deficiencies as a head coach McD knows quarterbacks, and as much as he liked Orton he liked Tebow even better. If the latter becomes a star in this league, one who has his team in the Super Bowl conversation year after year, McD’s legacy will be the one draft pick, the most important of all, that he absolutely nailed.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
by spock on Jul 4, 2011 5:05 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Nice post Spock....people liek to give McD hell....BUT...
If tebow, Moreno, Ayers, Thomas, Deecker, COx and Squid all develop into above average to VERY GOOD players (as well as Beadles and Walton who I think will be very good) then everyone may be forced to look at the McD era in a different light!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Is it Free Agency yet? Wake me up when it starts!
And if only Tebow and Decker develop while guys like Orakpo, Clay Matthews, Percey Harvin continue to shine, I’ll remind everyone that McD knows QBs and the passing game and that is the extent of his skill set as a 32 year old we hired and 34 year old we fired.
Josh couldn’t draft for sh##, he couldn’t pick a coaching staff for ##it, he couldn’t motivate for s##t, he couldn’t abate losing streaks for s#i#, he couldn’t put together a running game for #hi#, and he couldn’t win for #h#t.
It if turns out that McD ratio of good to stupid moves was 2 for 11 and Tebow was one of those 2. McD’s tenure is still a massive failure because he missed so much more than he hit.
The Lockout bores me.
McGeorge I have found myself agreeing with you more and more lately...
but on this I think we still are seeing different sides of the same coin. I don’t view McDaniels tenure as a failure on his part. But a failure of the entire Broncos football club – Bowlen included. They gave him way more power than they really should have; which was as much the reason of the crazy bold personnel moves as was McDaniels own inexperience.
That whole debacle never should have happened, and bad decisions ran rampant in the organization from the owner on down to the players and everyone saw it except us. Tebow and some of the other players mentioned about (much of the 2010 draft class) may turn out to be the silver lining in it all… because like some of the others that posted above, I happen to think McDaniels was a better talent evaluator than he appears at first glance. He spent enough time working for BB to know what a good player looks like, even if he didn’t swing a home run on ever selection.
He had about as good of luck as any other team drafting; it was just unfortunate that some of the more expesive choices haven’t returned their investment as hoped. Which is why McDaniels is getting a bad rep for his personnel moves, because he made some genius low-end moves, but some bonkers high-end moves.
But I just think you can’t keep pinning the whole thing on McDaniels. He didn’t own the Broncos during his tenure. He just coached and managed them, and we all know he probably had no business doing the latter.
"It is better to be rougly right than precisely wrong." - John Maynard Keynes
"Excellence can be obtained; if you care more than others think is wise…risk more than others think is safe…dream more than others think is practical…expect more than others think is possible." - Anonymous Author
by Alexander Wall on Jul 4, 2011 3:30 PM MDT up reply actions
I saw and hated on it vocally from about March 7th 2009.
Trust me when I say I’ve ripped Joe Ellis and Bowlen plenty for the McD fiasco. The failure ultimately lies with both of them because they were calling the shots and they gave McD the same power Shanny had. If this power was beyond Shanny (and it was well beyond Shanny IMO), it was WAY WAY WAY beyond Josh McDaniels. So yes, we agree here as well.
But we don’t agree on other issues. If McD was a better talent evaluator than he gets credit for, our team wouldn’t have wasted key selections on guys like Moreno, Ayers, Dick Quinn, McBath, Phonz, Seth Olsen, Bradstater and D Thomas. I will fully agree that McD learned some valuable lessons at the 2009 draft that improved his 2010 draft, but his 2010 draft was still a bit of a fiasco thanks to his Phonz trade as well as his trades back into round 1. We’d have saved four key picks if McD had just stood pat at 24 and taken Tebow instead of mindlessly trading up for D Thomas. Another problem is that we invested so damn much into the 2009 draft, that Josh’s massive failures here set us back several years. We wasted most of the Cutler bounty and our own 2010 1st round pick, a pick that would have been Pouncey at 14. Ouch!!!
No coach has the business to manage a team. Again, we agree. That was Bowlen’s fault.
But McD was an equally inept head coach in that he couldn’t hire a proper staff, couldn’t motivate his players, couldn’t solve several painful losing streaks, couldn’t figure out how to get the running game going and couldn’t get his team to play well in the 4th quarter. Tebow’s play in weeks 16 and 17 was about the only good 4th quarter work in 2010 besides the PI call that saved the Titans win for Orton. Where McD failed as a GM, he also failed as a coach. He wasn’t good at coaching, but hurt by GM work the way Shanny was. McD didn’t do either job well and he didn’t show promise in 2010 after his rookie coaching campaign. In fact, Josh got nothing but worse as a coach during his tenure and that was the best reason to fire him sooner vs later. He was getting better at the draft, but regressing as a coach. He gets plenty of heat, even at MHR, for his poor GM work, but much of MHR affords him a mulligan he doesn’t deserve for his coaching shortcomings. As I maintain, all Josh showed me was a mind for QB talent/improvement and a better than average passing game. That tells me his ceiling is still one of an offensive coordinator that needs another strong mind helping him in the running game.
The Lockout bores me.
by McGeorge on Jul 5, 2011 7:37 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
The same light I've been looking at all along.
the guy wasn’t all bad, as much as people would like to believe it.
twitter: @postpunk27
We'll never know the complete story Hoop, but Matt Cassel may have been in the mix too in another way...
I have had thoughts of Bill Bilicheck telling McD to kick Jay Cutler in his ass and make him play football…
You dont have to read it then Conrad...I think this looks at it from a different perspective, thus the reason for it.
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Is it Free Agency yet? Wake me up when it starts!
Glad you enjoyed man!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Is it Free Agency yet? Wake me up when it starts!
I thought it was an excellent read boydy
It takes my basic viewpoint almost perfectly. Orton has made the most of what he has had. We don’t have to proclaim him to be great to appreciate what he has done and he has improved his own value. Well written and thanks for the post.
Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
My pleasure man. Glad you enjoyed it Sean!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Is it Free Agency yet? Wake me up when it starts!
Orton for Haynesworth
I know he is a handful but it fills needs both ways.
If actually used in a 4-3 Hayneworth is very, very effective. And with his low trade value we cld probably even get a pick out of it also.
http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/07/06/making-the-grade-4-3-defensive-tackles/
Does KO's stock go up?
The Titans now have a reason to look for an experienced QB. Kerry Collins has left the building (NFL)
Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
nevermind
I just looked at their roster
Locker, Jake QB 6-3 231 23 R Washington
Ratliff, Brett QB 6-4 224 25 2 Utah
7 Simms, Chris QB 6-4 231 30 9 Texas
11 Smith, Rusty QB 6-5 226 24 2 Florida Atlantic
10 Young, Vince QB 6-5 232 28 6 Texas
Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
and why'd u say nevermind
looking at that roster hurts my eyes. THey definaely need a QB.
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