Kyle Orton Deserves Mercy
by Tim Lynch on Jul 23, 2011 10:14 AM MDT
in Strictly My Opinion
Email
PrintThe reality of the Denver Broncos quarterback situation is that Kyle Orton will never again be given a fair shake by a vast majority of Broncos fans - not with Tim Tebow sitting on the bench wanting to play. I recall seeing a recent fan poll containing over 10,000 votes, in which fans voted who they want as a starting quarterback in 2011. Tim Tebow received 82% of the vote to Kyle Orton's 13%.
That is a staggering vote of no confidence in Kyle Orton and starting him would not be fair to him. Think about the kind of fan-driven environment it is during a live game. Every wrong move Orton makes will bring a resounding "BOO" from 82% of the people in the stands, quickly followed by, "Tebow, Tebow, Tebow". This is the last thing Kyle Orton deserves.
I know I've been one of his biggest critics, but I don't hate the guy. Kyle Orton was exactly what we needed after the Jay Cutler fallout of 2009. However, that late season collapse had as much to do with offensive ineffectiveness to score points as it was with the defense giving it up.
Josh McDaniels must have realized Tebow's intangibles were off the charts and he must have also believed he could mold Tebow into a great quarterback. Which led me to an observation that hit me this offseason in complete hindsight. Kyle Orton can't succeed with strong competition at his position.
I think this comes from how he was treated in Chicago. I think a lot of the confidence a player has comes from those around them, especially from the coaching staff. Orton thought he had that in Denver, but then McDaniels drafted Tebow. I think that is when doubt started to creep in Orton's mind and the harder Tebow pushed the more he began to falter. The fact is, the Bears and now the Broncos have destroyed Orton's confidence. He needs to go. He needs to go somewhere that players and coaches believe in him and trust him. A place where he won't have to constantly look over his shoulder at the next "young gun" vying for his spot.
From my opinionated perspective, it wouldn't be fair for John Fox to start Kyle Orton in 2011. It would be a recipe for disaster as this team isn't good enough to generate the kind of success that would be absolutely necessary for the fanbase to come back from where they overwhelmingly are.
In short, Kyle Orton deserves mercy.
548 comments
|
4 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Wouldn’t a counterpoint to this be that the guy who didn’t believe in Orton and brought in Tebow is gone? Jon Fox didn’t go all in with Tebow like McDaniels did.
Follow Bleeding Green Nation on Twitter & Facebook
I was speaking from the reaction of the fanbase.
Cross 82% at your own peril and it wouldn’t be fair to Orton.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
Okay, Zap, then
let’s just get rid of EFX and make the fans the Front Office since the fans should be the last word on who starts.
This all has gone beyond absurd. The criterion should be, who gives the Broncos the better chance to win? But I know that doesn’t set well with those who, for some reason, want more than anything to get Kyle out of Denver.
One would think he is a baby raper or something . . .
-
BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!
by AZDynamics on Jul 23, 2011 4:10 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
No one is saying that. But Football is a business.
Upset 82% of the fanbase and Merch and ticket sales drop. I don’t think it’s New Coke all over again, but it still is a consideration.
"The problem with quotes in internet signatures is 90% of them are made up -Ghandi"
I get tired of hearing that, too . . .
If football is no longer a GAME that each team is trying to WIN, then I want out. It isn’t a soft drink. If WINNING doesn’t sell merchandise and tickets, then let’s just call football what it is: a glorified WWE.
The QB who should play should be the best one for the job at the time. Either the coach decides that, or the fans do. If it’s the fans, then I’m outta here . . .
BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!
by AZDynamics on Jul 23, 2011 4:20 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
Explain the Packers being one of the most succesful franchises in the 80's. $ wise.
Or better yet, The Raiders Throughout the last decade. How about the Cubs in Baseball? Sorry, I guess you’re “out of here” because no coach or GM can survive alienating that much of the fanbase.
Winning does sell to the fair weather fan, but tradition and loyalty to the fanbase sells over the long term and sports team are a brand.
"The problem with quotes in internet signatures is 90% of them are made up -Ghandi"
So you think I'm a fair weather fan?
I saw the first game the Broncos ever played, 9 September 1960. Where were you? I went through fourteen (thats 14) years with them before I ever saw a winning season.
I am as good a fan as the most die-hard here and more of one than the rest. And I say that the ONLY important thing about football is the scoreboard at the end of the game. No one player is bigger than that.
Not even Tebow.
-
BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!
by AZDynamics on Jul 23, 2011 4:30 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Not calling you a fair weather fan. You asked what sells merchandise.
“If WINNING doesn’t sell merchandise and tickets, then let’s just call football what it is: a glorified WWE.” - Those fans that buy the merchandise of the winning franchises and nothing else are fair weather fans. They move on to the next best thing in down times.
"The problem with quotes in internet signatures is 90% of them are made up -Ghandi"
What happened? It posted before I wrote the rest of it . . .
I didn’t ask what sells merchandise. I don’t care what sells merchandise. I don’t make any money off it.
I’m all about WINNING. That is FOOTBALL. That is what about when I was playing, and that is what I’m about now. I want the QB who gives the team the best chance to win NOW, and I dearly hope the coaching staff feels the same way . . .
BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!
I agree. But you have to admit that how the paying customer feels has to be a consideration.
It obviously can not be the total consideration but it must be taken into account. “How does this effect the bottom line?”
Now that doesn’t mean that 82% of the fanbase would revolt with their pocketbook, but 10% in today’s economy would be a disaster.
"The problem with quotes in internet signatures is 90% of them are made up -Ghandi"
That's BS Heeler
Tell that to the 25,000 people on the waiting list for Denver Broncos season tickets. If anyone wants to give them up just because the player they drool over won’t start, I know plenty of people who would gladly take their tickets.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
Follow me on Twitter @MHR_KaptainKirk
by KaptainKirk on Jul 23, 2011 4:46 PM MDT up reply actions 4 recs
It's not BS. It's simple business.
They may not give up their season tickets, but they may not show up. Empty seats don’t buy $8 beer or co-sign for a hotdog. Some give tickets away to buddies but I know some season ticket holders who refused to go, sell or give away their tickets until McDaniels was fired. All I am saying is the Fans will be taken into consideration.
"The problem with quotes in internet signatures is 90% of them are made up -Ghandi"
Say, Heeler . . .
Why don’t you take us all out to dinner with all the money you made with the team?
It has to be a GAME to us. We can’t afford the business . . .
-
BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!
It is a GAME to us but a BUSINESS to the people making the decisions.
You should care about the Business end of it. There are far more people that take advantage of a professional sports team far beyond the owners. Vendors, Diners around the stadium, tax revenue, hotel/motel tax that goes to support tourism as well as other ventures funded by the state…the list goes on.
I know me personally will not be buying the NFL ticket on Directv with Orton at QB. I will still follow the team and be sure to watch what Bronco games I can here in the Pacific NW (Monday Night FB, Sunday Night etc.), but I won’t be spending my money on something I feel is an inferior product. See there is lost revenue right there. It’s not all about ticket sales.
"The problem with quotes in internet signatures is 90% of them are made up -Ghandi"
SCREEEACH...BOOM...REENREENREEren
What’s that? A conversation that crashed and burned to death!
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
Nice Siren! Too funny.
"The problem with quotes in internet signatures is 90% of them are made up -Ghandi"
Sorry to hear that . . .
Because if Orton is out there, that will mean that Fox believes Orton to be the better product out there at this point. Same with Tebow.
I will trust Fox’s opinion over my own. I would like to think you would feel the same, but I get the impression you wouldn’t. Correct me if I’m wrong . . .
BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!
by AZDynamics on Jul 24, 2011 1:10 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
Well, like I said . . .
If the fans are the biggest part of the game, even more than winning and losing, then I’m through with the game.
I’ll go and watch some high school football . . .
-
BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!
AZ...love your passion, always have. but do you honestly think Orton increase denver's success GREATLY over starting Tebow?
No-one in their right mind thinks that Orton is the difference between a 12-4 and 4-12 season. Is Orton even the difference from 6-10 or 8-8? These are the questions, because, LONG TERM, Bowlen, Elway, Fox and Xanders all probably get this is a 2-3 year rebuild, and having Tebow be the starter, and DEVELOP and maybe….and I mean, maybe…take a slightly worse record than Orton would be a positive. Personally, I think Tebow will win as many games as Orton, but that is the deal as far as I see it.
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Is it Free Agency yet? Wake me up when it starts!
Boydy, Orton came to the Broncos with one of the best winning records in football. That is because he had some help (as all QBs do). Given a defense at least in the middle of the pack instead of last place and a running game in the middle of the pack instead of near last place, and that would have made the difference.
But yes, I do believe Orton would significantly improve the team’s chances over Tebow this year . . . and I’m not alone, as Lloyd’s interview showed us. Orton is experienced. He is better at reading defenses. He has a quicker release. He is more accurate. He is as adept at using one side of the field as he is the other (where Tebow has problems to his right).
Yes, Orton can’t run as well as Tebow. But he can’t run as well as Bradlee Van Pelt, either.
Fox wants to win NOW. So do I . . . because I am a REAL fan (not at you—I’m responding to the implication of someone else that I am a “fair weather fan” because of this). Orton has already proven he can do this. And I do not believe he is a “stop-gap” player. I believe he is becoming an excellent QB. It is a shame that he may become someone else’s excellent QB, while we are seeing whether or not Tebow can be.
I want a competition, and the best QB on the field. I don’t care whether the last name is Orton, Tebow, or Quinn . . . or anyone else. I want the best man out there. I don’t give a damn what 86% of the fans want. It is what Fox wants, and, far as I have seen, he agrees with me . . .
BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!
by AZDynamics on Jul 24, 2011 12:57 PM MDT up reply actions 3 recs
His QB rating with the Bears sucked
His W/L record is more of a reflection of that teams stout D and run game. Over the course of 15 games started he threw 9 tds vs 13 picks. Tebow in 3 starts and a handful of plays accounted for 11 vs 3 picks. Im ready to see what else this kid has. Orton is Jon Kitna 2.0. Heres a link for the stats
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/O/OrtoKy00.htm
http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/13200/tim-tebow
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
There is the difference my friend...
I see Orton as nothing but a stop gap player, and an impediment to the long term development of the team. We wont win now, but I will enjoy watching our young team develop, even with a losing record (in fact, my feeling on this team is like the first year Aaron Rodgers stepped in as starter….the Packers went 6-10 but in the 7 of those losses they lost by less than 7 points). Green Bay took the lumps and look where they are now.
Thats what I want to see from our YOUNG team…not treading water for 8-8 win hoping someone else screws the pooch so we get in the WC picture.
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Is it Free Agency yet? Wake me up when it starts!
No one called you a fair weather fan.
“Not calling you a fair weather fan. You asked what sells merchandise.”
That’s twice now.
Orton also scores leads teams to less points than Tebow and has far weaker performances against common opponents.
"The problem with quotes in internet signatures is 90% of them are made up -Ghandi"
Wow did my typing stink on that!
"The problem with quotes in internet signatures is 90% of them are made up -Ghandi"
I want the best QB that gives us a chance
to win next year, and the next, and the next, not just this year.
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 23, 2011 4:51 PM MDT up reply actions
I agree and these people don't even know if that is Orton yet?
Will they think EFX is wrong if they declare that Tebow does? Whoever gives us the best chance to win at this point in the game is strictly opinion.
Tim Tebow wears 3WM and drinks Tuscan whole milk.
by BroncoMath101 on Jul 23, 2011 10:19 PM MDT up reply actions
Exactly…I’m ready to move on with TT and see if that is the answer! The next three years will answer that, what with the rest of the building that will come in the forthcoming drafts. With the new FO, I believe that we are now on track!
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 23, 2011 10:23 PM MDT up reply actions
I wasn't advocating it would be right...
it just would present a whole host of problems this organization doesn’t need right now. Not when the QB in question is a middle of the pack talent. lol
Once again, it is what it is. This organization went 4-12 last year and the fans are pissed. New coach, new GM…to start Orton when he has very little support is not a bold move as much as it is fraught with more risk than reward.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
Exactly...
Why make as major a change as was made to the front office without focusing the rest of the decisions based upon the future hopes.
Orton is not the future and it is time that everyone lets him got to AZ where he just might have a chance to be that guy. lol
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 23, 2011 4:58 PM MDT up reply actions
"The criterion should be, who gives the Broncos the better chance to win?"
I agree if you are talking about the long term, and then it has to be TT. I could care less who gives us the best chance to win more games this year. I’m looking at the future, and I believe that everyone should be. This year isn’t a super bowl year so whats the point about wins and losses?
It’s all about getting ready for years two and three in the EFX history book!
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 23, 2011 4:17 PM MDT up reply actions
That's another fallacy . . .
The future is what MIGHT be. It’s all about WINNING the game they are playing NOW. I don’t want to go through two years of sandbagging games so I can see a few wins in year three. That is nothing other than asinine . . .
BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!
by AZDynamics on Jul 23, 2011 4:23 PM MDT up reply actions 4 recs
You said it
I hate it when the Broncos lose. Don’t give me any more of the sickening crap about finding out what we have in Tebow. Let Coach Fox figure that one out, while he’s putting the best players on the field for every game.
It’s really scary when you have a moment of temporary sanity.
Nelson DeMille
by bradley on Jul 23, 2011 4:25 PM MDT up reply actions 4 recs
I can’t believe that the best chance to win was on the field last year.
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 23, 2011 5:01 PM MDT up reply actions
It wasn't . . .
That is why they are improving the defense and looking to improve the running game, as well as TE.
-
BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!
I didn't even mean it that way.
I thought that TT should have started, and been thrown to the wolves last year, just for the Hell of it, and see what improvements could be made in his game through on the field play, with a so called genius QB coach at the helm! I think that McD was afraid that he wasn’t a miracle maker like the media made him out to be, as a QB coach. LMAO…JK of course!
McD must be a miracle worker.
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 23, 2011 10:16 PM MDT up reply actions
If TT had started the season we would have gone 7 – 9 and he would be that much further ahead. JMO
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 23, 2011 10:18 PM MDT up reply actions
I'm not against this premise.
I am just pointing out that that premise is overwhelmingly in the minority here. In this case it doesn’t matter who is right…just what is true.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
This, and this alone
Was why I was, and I repeat was, a big McDaniels backer. This was one of his biggest emphasis from day one, no BS, win now. And he paid off to 6-0 (and that MF Thanksgiving game is still always going to be special to me, regardless – ha ha Giants!)…. Anyway. Another rec for the true sentiment to all your comments thus far.
A pessimist sees the difficulties in every opportunity.
An optimist sees the opportunities in every difficulty.
- Winston Churchill
First (and only, in our lifetimes) team to three consecutive SB wins (perhaps and then some)!!!! ( =
by PearlJamBroncoGFunk on Jul 24, 2011 12:11 AM MDT up reply actions
Yes there are those who want Kyle out simply because they want Tebow too start.
I think the biggest majority in here want whats right for the team in the position they’re now in. The Broncos have a new coaching staff as well as a lot of changes and a lot of young players. IMO the Broncos are building for the future and even if i think Orton could do the job, it would make more sense to get what you can for Orton while he still has value and start Tebow. It’s not a question of who’s the best QB at this point and more of a question of can Tebow be your QB of the future and the need to find out now. It was too late to see what Orton could do after 3 picks where given to get him, McDaniel has forced the Broncos hand.
Warning: If you're reading this it has been censored.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
While I believe trading him is the right thing and that he won't ever get a fair shake in Denver now that the majority of the fanbase is calling for Tim,
I don’t believe that his confidence has been destroyed. Until this year, Kyle has always welcomed competition. He has done well in it as well considering he won the job outright in Denver 2 years in a row. If his confidence is destroyed because he got injured and the coaches put someone else in then he won’t ever make a good starting QB in this league.
I think KO, while limited, is still a good QB who is confident in his abilities. He believes he can be a starter and he often plays like one. He has limitations to his game though which is why I don’t think he’ll ever be a top 8 QB in this league in stats other than pass yards. I think he needs to go and have a chance elsewhere because like you said, I don’t think he’ll get a fair shot here from the fans and you are right, he doesn’t deserve that.
Tim Tebow wears 3WM and drinks Tuscan whole milk.
by BroncoMath101 on Jul 23, 2011 10:48 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
It's not that I "hate" or even dislike Orton, it's just
that he is only a “good” QB not a “great” QB. Good QBs are the ones who look good in practice, put up some good numbers in games, are good at knowing the game plan and playbook, but will not carry a team. He is Steve Deberg, even more accurately, he is Trent Dilfer. Dilfer was a “good” QB who was able to win a SB, but it took one of the most dominating D’s ever to make it happen. We know what a great QB looks like, and we won’t settle for less anymore. I love that. We know a great QB can get us to SBs multiple time even if the talent around him is not great. We know a great QB can win SBs with above average talent around him. I don’t see a great D in the near future, but I do see a “good” QB and I’m sure a SB is not in his future. Let’s trade KO, get what we can while his stock is high and find out if Tebow is a “great” QB.
"I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany."
by rubincarterrocks on Jul 23, 2011 10:53 AM MDT reply actions 3 recs
I see the same things.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
"I don’t see a great D in the near future,"
I strongly disagree! I see the major pieces to a great D in place and just a few good pieces left to get.
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 23, 2011 3:27 PM MDT up reply actions
What Kyle Orton does deserve
Is that same defense that he went 6-0 under and possibly a running back who could take just a bit of the pressure off of him.
Tim Tebow’s fun to watch too though. I just don’t know that fun to watch equates to winning games this season and this season I would prefer to see wins.
"A man without enemies is a man without qualities." Al Capone
"Literature is an occupation in which you have to keep proving your talent to people who have none." - Jules Renard.
Okay, if we're talking wins and winning...
…then the final analysis is that the Broncos have never had a winning record with Orton as the starting quarterback since he arrived here (8-8 in 2009 and 3-10 in 2010). That equates to a combined win-loss record of 11-18, so how could that possibly translate into winning?
Yeah, but I think his point was the trend was down....
not up. lol
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
Please stop trying to exclude factors in trying to prove your point.
Peyton Manning would not have won in Denver with a nearly last place running game and last place defense.
Orton came to Denver with one of the best W-L records in football. Even in 2009, he was 9-6 on a bad team. So you want to cherry-pick one season? Then explain John Elway’s 5-11 in 1990.
-
BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!
Don't tell me that Manning wouldn't have won in Denver, either.
Anyone with eyes could see both the offense and defense beginning to really rally around Tebow. And now you’re saying that someone with unquestionably better innate QB skills, like a Manning, would have had the same results as an Orton. No way.
Elway, Manning, and even Tebow are natural-born leaders. It’s probably one of the reasons why their overall talents were recognized, and why they were also taken in the first-round. They can practically impose their teams to win, and Orton has just not done that in Denver.
No, we’ve seen Elway, and we’ve seen Manning, and we’ve seen glimmers of Tebow, and Orton isn’t on that level, and I doubt that he’ll ever be. At best we can say that he’s “servicable.” He once was counted upon to “win you some games,” but that’s no longer true today. And what about, “what have you done for me lately?” How do you think that Orton would handle that question, considering the lack of Broncos wins in the win-loss column under his leadership?
Again you are just making stuff up . Im so tired explaining it to people who dont follow the NFL enough that they think quoting punchlines from espn actually somehow are facts
As I said before there are parts of this fan base that are so out of touch with todays NFL that is crazy scary .
Elway never won anything without at least an average defense . Manning won without a defense but had one of the most prolific balanced offense in league history with Edgarrin james .
We didnt have a defense or a running game here so why would any clear thinking fan keep expecting the same results.
It really is very scary that people think last years teams was as good as those teams that manning or Elway won the SB with and that the only difference is QB play .
by Hoopforia on Jul 23, 2011 7:22 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
You are correct.
Elway’s 3 Super Bowl debacles had defensive rankings of 15, 7, and 1.
Even I didn’t know that the 1989 the Broncos had the top ranked defense…could have fooled me….all I remember is 55-10.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
Well, the fact is that, as an American, an Army veteran, and a Denver Broncos fan, I firmly stand upon my right to give opinions just like the next guy.
If you can’t understand that simple concept, or even respect the views of others, who don’t think precisely like you do, then that’s your problem, not mine. However, I will keep giving my opinions about the Broncos, because that’s part and parcel of the American way. And anyone with any common sense knows that you don’t have the monoply on what is the absolute truth about the Broncos and the NFL, or that yours is the only correct perspective or interpretation, so do try to get over yourself before you hurt something.
by 9798 on Jul 24, 2011 8:08 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks for your service my friend and nice post!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Is it Free Agency yet? Wake me up when it starts!
I'm with Boydy: thank you for your service to our country
Regarding your post, however, I don’t know how that was necessary. Sorry, but I didn’t see where Hoopforia tried to deny you your opinion . . .
BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!
I didn't say that Hoopforia tried to deny me my opinion...
…What I am saying, however, is that he has made statements showing that he doesn’t really care what others think when he disagrees with their opinions, perspectives, or viewpoints. Cases in point:
“Again you are just making stuff up . Im so tired explaining it to people who dont follow the NFL enough that they think quoting punchlines from espn actually somehow are facts”
“As I said before there are parts of this fan base that are so out of touch with todays NFL that is crazy scary”
“It really is very scary that people think last years teams was as good as those teams that manning or Elway won the SB with and that the only difference is QB play”
Or are you telling me had all of this been actually said to you, that you would have thought that these were all conducive to a truly meaningful conversation predicated upon mutual respect and encouragement for further discussion? Is that what you’re telling me?
Once again, explain Elway's 5-11 season in 1990. Did his leadership skills all the sudden leave him for one year?
I will tell you and anyone else that NO QB would have had a winning season with the Broncos last year. In case you missed it, they were last place in defense and near last place in the running game.
Well, I take it back: If there really is a Superman, maybe he could have. But then there are some Tebownites who think he is, aren’t there?
-
BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!
55-10 hangover.
That is hard to overcome…from a team perspective.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
The problem there
was even with the no.1 ranked D. Elway was the Offense. All SF had to do is plan on how to stop Elway and that is what you get 55-10
Good job pointing out Elway's one horrible year out of 16 though. :P
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
this is 2011 guy orton didnt get here until 2009 we havent been over .500 since 2006
Orton prior to coming here had never had a season under .500 so who is exactly a reflection of who here ?
To try and claim that our qb situation is the reason we are losing games is flat out ridiclous in fact if we didnt have Tebow and we simply stated Orton was gonna be our starter the only the anyone outside Denver would be saying is that Fox would have to fox the defense and get a running game not that we didnt have a qb capable of winning .
We havent won but our qb play has been very good maybe you should check out the records of all the Qbs who ever had the worst defense in the league and then talk wins and losses .
Calm down, guy. It likely wouldn't have even happened had you used some punctuation in the first place.
Regardless, we were talking about winning games under Orton in Denver, and 11-18 [or whatever it is with that one start from Simms] still doesn’t equate to winning. Football is a business, and, in today’s business world, it’s, “What have you done for me lately.” So it’s irrelevant what he did in Chicago. It’s only relevant what he’s done in Denver, and the Broncos lost more games with Orton than they won. That’s indisputable. If they had won more games than they lost, then there would be those wanting to give credit to Orton. So it stands to reason that if they lose, he should also take the blame. You can’t have it both ways.
Precisely, and with Orton's results since
it proves he’s not the answer.
"I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany."
by rubincarterrocks on Jul 23, 2011 4:51 PM MDT up reply actions
the answer is no one because no one wins with the 32nd ranked defense
Ill gladly wait on you to tell me the name of the QB who has won with the dead last defense in the league.
Forget the answer some of you dont even know what the question is .
by Hoopforia on Jul 23, 2011 7:23 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
[Why are you being so argumentative and arrogant with Broncos fans you don't happen to agree with?]
It goes without saying that no QB would likely win with a dead last defense, BUT it also stands to reason that at some point…somewhere between a dead last defense and a top-notch defense…the odds start to change in the favor of the QB winning, anyway.
Case in point, Tim Lynch’s above, “Elway’s 3 Super Bowl debacles,” which had a Super Bowl appearance with a defense ranked at 15. Evidently then, a QB can, indeed, start winning with a less than stellar defense…just not win-it-all “with the dead last defense in the league”…which was some very nice “cherry-picking” of your own.
by 9798 on Jul 24, 2011 9:04 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
LOL This has already been discussed ad nauseum and then you have peiople come in and repeat the same things that have already been proven wrong .
Elway never made the playoffs with a defense ranked lower than 15th . So its not just the SB its the playoffs period you dont know what you are talking thats why Im being argumentative and arrogant . because Ive found that no matter how many times the facts have been said its still someone who comes and quotes there version as being the truth.
The only broncos team to ever make the playoffs with a defense ranked near the bottom of the league was the 2000 team with Griese and that was because we had one of the best single season running games ever that season and one of best takeaway /giveaway ratios in the league as our defense forced a ton of turnovers.
Outside that ONE season no Broncos team have ever ….EVER made the playoffs without a defense ranked at least 15th or higher .
So as I said the fantasy that you and other have created and keep trying to pass it off as some sort of fact needs to get back down to earth.
Maybe before you reference someone elses post you should at least check the facts of it . So no there is no cherry picking just the stating of the facts which some of you have ignored for way too long .
by Hoopforia on Jul 24, 2011 5:46 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
Just a note
Orton was actually 8-7 in 2009 for games he started.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
lol. I was waiting for someone to point that out.
Chris Simms = 0-1 baby!
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
Haha Chris Simms
Now there’s someone I can be upset at unconditionally. He pretty much lost us that Washington game.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
You'll have to excuse me...
…for only pulling the win-loss stats from the official Denver Broncos website, instead of sitting here trying to remember the nuances of the games. When you reach my age, and I’m still around, let me know if you can remember as much then as you can now. I mean, you actually might. There are more than just a few old-timers around who have much better memories than me.
I can't even find my glasses in the morning.
"The problem with quotes in internet signatures is 90% of them are made up -Ghandi"
I went looking all over the house for my glasses the other day.
They were n top of my head. I hate getting old.
"The problem with quotes in internet signatures is 90% of them are made up -Ghandi"
Better than the alternative
It’s really scary when you have a moment of temporary sanity.
Nelson DeMille
I thought that I had already responded with a, "Right, right," and a bit more...
…but I don’t see it at this moment. So I’ll say it now, I wasn’t thinking of the Simms game because I simply hadn’t remembered it. I vaguely felt that I could be a win or loss off, but I couldn’t remember precisely what that could be at the time, so thanks.
Not totally true
The Broncos were 8-7 with orton in ’09. That said, unleash the Tebow.
by ocbroncomaniac on Jul 23, 2011 3:58 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
To the best of my knowledge...
the same group of guys were on D for the rest of the season after the 6 – 0 start.
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 23, 2011 3:36 PM MDT up reply actions
Orton could have easily been 3-3 during that stretch.
"The problem with quotes in internet signatures is 90% of them are made up -Ghandi"
Excuse me, Denver could have easily been 3-3 during that stretch.
"The problem with quotes in internet signatures is 90% of them are made up -Ghandi"
There we go
We’re Bronco fans here, and it’s a team sports, QB’s get too much glory in wins and too much blame in losses.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
I *think* it's a matter of personality
Kyle Orton has superior intelligence, good mechanics, above average delivery and above average decision making capability. What Kyle lacks, in my ignorant view without any real first hand information, is strength of personality. The one person on a football team that can’t have his personality lost in the team is the QB.
If Kyle was to shout “Once more into the breach, my friends!” 9 guys would await his return and 1 would follow after shrugging at the other 9.
Tebo, again, based on such limited information as to be negligible, appears to be the type to inspire 10 guys into the breach, and failing that grab them by “the scruff of the neck” and propel them into the breach. -all with a maniacal grin on his face.
I guess he has superior intelligence...
He scored a 25 on his wonderlic. Tebow a 22.
Both are unimpressive if you ask me. I would call that “average intelligence”.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
I can't either, but comparing the football intelligence of a 5 year vet to a rookie isn't fair either.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
Great point!
That’s the only reason Tim didn’t come in and start on day one, knowledge of the play book and experience. If it had been just him and Simms, I believe Tim would have started day one.
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 23, 2011 3:46 PM MDT up reply actions
I get what you are saying though.
Orton had the playbook in control and was above average in many of the other areas. He just lacked inspirational leadership. I liken it to “ho hum” leadership.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
Exactly.
I have no idea what Tebo is going to be able to accomplish as a passer; however, as a team leader I think we can comfortably expect a positive impact. It’s through those long 3rd downs, or down late in the game scenarios where Tebo will thrive and where Orton wasn’t able to get the team, or himself, to believe in the unlikely.
The "fan base".......
is calling for a fantasy and a “good story” rather supporting the Broncos. Timmy is lusted after with unrealistic slobber. He is being portrayed through the prism of fantasy, illusory “hopes” and gossemer dreams. This is tantamount to a Freshman ogling the Senior Cheerleader with the Size “D” recommendations, or ogling the Centerfold. Fantasy absloutely corrupts logic and it can even scour the statistics and "tell everyone that the “Chosen One” is here. I believe that Orton will win out.
That is all for now…..
by Gulbrand on Jul 23, 2011 11:10 AM MDT reply actions 6 recs
Denying reality doesn't make it not true.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
by Tim Lynch on Jul 23, 2011 11:14 AM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
Fantasy feeds Logic
Fantasy’s not such a bad thing. Fantasy stirs a heart; it inspires. Logic would tell you that really, the double D cheerleader is no different from the 200 pound zit-faced girl. Actually, to the contrary, the big-boned girl should be sought because she is more intelligent and appearance is fleeting and why should the shape, arrangement, and proportion of tissue matter. But you and I both know that in life, fantasy usually carries the day. And, you’re right, that’s not always for the best. It’s not always for the worst though either. You can’t inspire a whole football team with logic. You need guts and glory (Tebow). You need leadership and yelling and spitting and fervor and eyes ablaze with fire. “There’s only one person who gets the ball right here,” Tebow during Texans game. The “fan base” wants what all humans really want, an awesome story, a spectacle, a show. Nobody wants to watch robots play football. “Once more into the breach my friends!”
by bennybronx on Jul 23, 2011 11:47 AM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
You lost me with your logic.
What is illogical about double D’s?
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
by Tim Lynch on Jul 23, 2011 11:48 AM MDT up reply actions 4 recs
Double D's or any breasts for that matter...
are simply collection sights of fatty tissue. What’s so appealing about that? Why should men care so much, spend so much, risk the rejection, invest so much time just to possess some “mounds of fatty tissue”? Logically, it doesn’t really make sense, but try telling a guy not to get excited over a nice pair of “mounds of fatty tissue”. You’ve got a better chance of getting Donald Trump to change that stupid hairstyle of his and give away all of his money while he’s at it. Logic is nice, but it’s never the fundamental fuel, the first cause, if you will, that motivates a person.
Because it was funny.
And its an erogenous zone…
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
"erogenous...." funny.
"I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany."
by rubincarterrocks on Jul 24, 2011 4:31 PM MDT up reply actions
And Elway's helicopter is an epitomal example of such. In a sense, my friend.
A pessimist sees the difficulties in every opportunity.
An optimist sees the opportunities in every difficulty.
- Winston Churchill
First (and only, in our lifetimes) team to three consecutive SB wins (perhaps and then some)!!!! ( =
by PearlJamBroncoGFunk on Jul 24, 2011 12:23 AM MDT up reply actions
That passion to win is what we need again, and we will wee it again this year, with the changes that are in place!
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 24, 2011 12:25 AM MDT up reply actions
Seriously, when I was a kid.... To me, Broncos fans
were just that. That passion, that respect… I guess, that is at least, one truly cool thing about the new Mile High, is the fact that when you walk into the seating at any public juncture, there’s a sign above, with a Broncos symbol of course, that says
Respect.
Respect the game. Respect each other.
I feel part of the passion of that sentiment is part of what real Mile High Magic is all about. Part of what Mr. Patrick Bowlen intentionally instilled into the organization. When the fans don’t have it, the teams not gonna.
On a side note, that is why the Chiefs are my most respected rivalry. The Chargers have never been a threat prior to the past decade, but the Raiders have always been a nasty rivalry… And their fans tend to back the evil-ness of their past. But the Chiefs, of course they have theirs like that, and for a fact We have Ours that are evil (there are evil *%$! heads every where) – but it seems the good times are when the AFC West is between the two respectful rivals (and We win out, of course).
A pessimist sees the difficulties in every opportunity.
An optimist sees the opportunities in every difficulty.
- Winston Churchill
First (and only, in our lifetimes) team to three consecutive SB wins (perhaps and then some)!!!! ( =
by PearlJamBroncoGFunk on Jul 24, 2011 12:39 AM MDT up reply actions
Absolutely!
I have the same respect for Pat! He saved the franchise and then let the peeps he hired work their gig. He has remained an owner who tried to give us the best chance to win by trying his best to put the right leaders in place, and then trusting that they would do the job he hired them for.
It worked out for the most part, but the pieces that are now in place are the ones that he has hoped to get for the last several years.
That is why Shanny is gone and John E is in the FO. It is a winning combo that I think will do the trick. JE is a humble guy who knows his limitations, and is willing to guide this franchise into the place that He experienced as a player, and therefor knows from a first hand basis.
He knows how to win on the field, and that is what he brings to the table. He knows what kind of talent he had surrounding him during the back to back SB wins, and so we can count on him to search for those types of players.
I feel great for the future of our team with the two Johns that we have right now. Lets all give them a chance to prove Pat right!
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 24, 2011 1:19 AM MDT up reply actions
Tebow created that fantasy by himself though with his play in high school, college and even the last 3 games. Plus his leadership, his work ethic, his intangibles that everyone (even the MSM haters) agree he has.
The fans just picked up on it.
Tim Tebow wears 3WM and drinks Tuscan whole milk.
by BroncoMath101 on Jul 23, 2011 11:51 AM MDT up reply actions
Yep.
Mariners/D Broncos/BSU Broncos fan in Seattle
The first rule of Lookout Landing is...
by appleshampoo on Jul 23, 2011 1:37 PM MDT up reply actions
Trip on...
and open your eyes to the pure truth. Tim Tebow will flat out beat out Orton in the preseason, if Orton is even given a chance to compete! Tebow’s drive and (not so raw) raw ability is to far beyond what Orton will ever have, for orton to be able to compete for long.
His leadership and intangibles surpass orton’s to the point that some of us aren’t even able to see Orton as a leader at all.
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 23, 2011 3:54 PM MDT up reply actions
This is a good point, Tim
KO’s days were numbered not from the day McD drafted Tebow, but from the day he traded for Brady Quinn. If a quarterback folds under the pressure of competition like Orton has done so many times in the past, he cannot be a true leader. I feel Orton has an admirable skill set, but he does not posses the intangibles to will a team over the hump. Often times he seems scared to death when he is in the pocket and the rest of the team sees it. Poise under pressure has never been one of his strengths and you need that when the game is on the line. He is a good quarterback that deserves a shot, but I feel his time with our Broncos is almost up. The fans want to see Tebow and more than likely thats what will happen. Orton may give us the best chance to win now, but Tebow is our best bet to build for the future. Right now, thats what the Broncos need!
by CH74 on Jul 23, 2011 11:12 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
I agree he deserves mercy and should be traded.
And I have nothing against him. But I disagree about the confidence issue. It wouldn’t matter who was brought in behind Rivers, Rogers, Ryan, Flacco, the rapist, Brady, Manning, Brees etc. You either have “it” or you don’t. Orton’s lack of confidence springs from his inability to perform in the clutch. Tebow has always performed in the clutch and I believe that will continue.
Oh, you were finished? Oh, well, allow me to retort!
--Jules Winnfield
by GrizBronc on Jul 23, 2011 11:16 AM MDT via mobile reply actions
I think a young player - as Orton was - depends a lot on the confidence coaches have in them.
He got shafted and betrayed over and over again by the coaching staff in Chicago. It would affect me in a negative way, so I assume it affected Orton in a negative way. Which drafting Tebow and trading for Quinn only exasperated.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
by Tim Lynch on Jul 23, 2011 11:35 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
You do make a good point there.
I agree Orton did seem to lose something in Chicago, but i thought he had gotten it back in Denver. When Orton got hurt and the fans started on him is when i saw Orton change last year.
Warning: If you're reading this it has been censored.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
by CPT.Caveman on Jul 23, 2011 11:51 AM MDT up reply actions
I agree.
I felt it started before Orton got hurt. I think it started immediately after the Raider loss. 59-14 at home is going to leave a bad taste in peoples mouth…it did mine. The death knell came after Moreno’s 163 yard beastly performance against KC, along with an impressive defensive stand…Orton blew it. The fans that hadn’t turned on him at the point, began to turn on him.
By the time Tebow had his late game heroics against the Texans and near miracle against the Chargers, most fans decided it was Tebow’s time. It is what it is. The best thing that could happen to Orton is to be traded to a majorly QB deficient team. I think he’d end up flourishing in that kind of environment…especially if the defense is at least above average.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
(Minnesota ;)
A pessimist sees the difficulties in every opportunity.
An optimist sees the opportunities in every difficulty.
- Winston Churchill
First (and only, in our lifetimes) team to three consecutive SB wins (perhaps and then some)!!!! ( =
by PearlJamBroncoGFunk on Jul 24, 2011 12:27 AM MDT up reply actions
You means his inability to run with the ball like Tebow right.
The Bronco fans are the ones who are putting all the pressure on Orton when it should’ve been players like K.Moreno averaging 59 yards a game and the entire defense (ranked last) who got boo’ed off the field. The only thing Tebow did in the “clutch” was run with the ball, he was the 2nd leading rusher for the Broncos in just 3 games. That’s the only thing he brings to the table that Orton can’t do at this point, and the fans have alot to do with how the team feels about what QB is on the field. The only question is whether Fox lets the “FANS” decide who he starts, my guess is that about half the 82% like Tebow because of his FF value.
Warning: If you're reading this it has been censored.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
by CPT.Caveman on Jul 23, 2011 11:44 AM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
My point was, if Fox doesn't let the fans decide it would be disastrous -- for Orton.
Do you really think the fans will just roll over and say, “Okay, I guess Foxy knows what he is doing.” My point was, it would not be fair to Orton to start Orton. Fans will chew him up for ever single missed opportunity. Would that be rational? HELL NO! But it is reality of how it will go down.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
Easy to see youe confidence in Tebow is very thin!
No chance in hell that Tebow beats out Orton. Fox knows that his players know that Orton is the better QB hands down. If KO stays and plays well, Tebow will not see the field(except for short yardage situations) in 2011. Maybe the poll should be what is better for Tim Tebow!
you presume to know an awful lot considering you claim to know how Fox feels and how all the players from the Broncos feel already.
Tim Tebow wears 3WM and drinks Tuscan whole milk.
by BroncoMath101 on Jul 23, 2011 11:59 AM MDT up reply actions
I can only judge by his actions, but yes I do not read minds.
I do know he will get hammered if he starts. It would take a miracle to change that.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
hes been hammered every day since hes been here win or lose . Maybe 10% of the fanbase has ever actually supported the guy.
him starting and the reception would be business as usual as far as the booing and support he would receive .
by Hoopforia on Jul 23, 2011 1:01 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't know about that.
MHR supported him from day 1 – I can’t recall any staffers who disdained him like the fans who booed him in the stands.
I know when my support wavered and it wasn’t before the start of the 2010 season…
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
I'll be shocked if Orton
doesn’t get traded before camp starts.
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 23, 2011 5:12 PM MDT up reply actions
That feels like an unfair generalization, Hoops
Many of us rallied for KO from very early on, fighting the “noodle arm” and “game manager” tags, and KO earned a reasonably strong following by his professionalism and (for me) by playing well with an open fracture of the finger. I supported him over an untested Tebow at the beginning of the last season, rooting for him to do well. I did not even consider it time to change into a “check out Tebow” mode until after KO was injured and I watched to TT perform as a rookie with few reps and a very restricted playbook. There is enough there to make me very interested in seeing how he can develop. KO is, IMO, a quality starting QB in the NFL….Tebow showed me enough to believe he could become even better than KO in a fairly short time. I am pretty sure I can find polls from that era that showed far more than 10 % of MHR was sold on KO, though since I didn’t (and don’t) read DP I really can’t say anything about the rest of the fanbase.
Hear, hear!
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 23, 2011 10:55 PM MDT up reply actions
If Orton stays. We'll see.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
Fox did stick with Jake for a long time in Carolina, so who knows what he'll do.
Hell, i would trade Orton now, but only because i couldn’t have my 3 picks back i gave for Tebow. With Tebow in the picture i would trade Orton(hopefully for a 2nd and a 5th) keep Quinn and start Tebow. The Broncos have to start Tebow now and find out if he’s their guy.
Warning: If you're reading this it has been censored.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
by CPT.Caveman on Jul 23, 2011 12:07 PM MDT up reply actions
Exactly.
So we can at least evaluate him – albeit from the perspective a first year player (He’s not going to be Brady in 2011), but if there is an option to get a great QB prospect in next years draft.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
Ok gotcha
I completely agree. The situation as it is now, calls for the trade of Orton there’s no way around it.
Warning: If you're reading this it has been censored.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
by CPT.Caveman on Jul 23, 2011 11:57 AM MDT up reply actions
Thanks! That was my premise.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
Inspiring 10 men on offense and 11 on defense to step up their games is something he also has that Orton doesn't at this point.
Tim Tebow wears 3WM and drinks Tuscan whole milk.
by BroncoMath101 on Jul 23, 2011 11:55 AM MDT up reply actions
I think the 12th man decided Orton fate.
Warning: If you're reading this it has been censored.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
by CPT.Caveman on Jul 23, 2011 11:59 AM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
rec'd.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
Who Tebow? :). Or maybe Tebow decided his own fate?
all joking aside. Would this conversation (not between you and me, but the topic in general) be any different if it was Sam Bradford or Andrew Luck instead of Tebow? Much different I imagine as most people considered them franchise QB’s already coming out of the gate (or would have in Luck’s case). I just don’t know why it is so different with Tebow other than people don’t like his throwing motion, or because he came from the spread, or because he is a very polarizing figure. I think though that he has all the makings of a franchise QB (and most of the fans were able to see this as well), and now we want to see if he can prove it.
Tim Tebow wears 3WM and drinks Tuscan whole milk.
by BroncoMath101 on Jul 23, 2011 12:04 PM MDT up reply actions
Yeah
I would rather have Luck than Tebow because “I” prefer a pocket style QB with just enough scrambling ability to make the defense worry about it some. I also prefer a QB fresh out of college that’s played in a pro-style offense, because IMO that gives them a head start. If M.Cassel had a stronger arm he would be a good example of what i would look for in a QB.
Warning: If you're reading this it has been censored.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
by CPT.Caveman on Jul 23, 2011 12:17 PM MDT up reply actions
Luck in a Stanford uni does sort of look Elway-esque. ;-)
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
I hope a team like the Raiders doesn't get him.
Warning: If you're reading this it has been censored.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
by CPT.Caveman on Jul 23, 2011 12:22 PM MDT up reply actions
uhg
I’m betting it will be the Bills.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
For some reason i hope he goes to the 49ers, i don't know why.
I can’t wait to see what our rookie QB R.Stanzi can do, if we have a pre-season………………man this is killing our young teams.
Warning: If you're reading this it has been censored.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
by CPT.Caveman on Jul 23, 2011 12:26 PM MDT up reply actions
Good for the Bills then, they deserve something better than theyve gotten since Jim Kelly retired...
And good for us as that would mean that we didn’t have the worst record in the league. It’ll allow us to concentrate on fixing the rest of our team and allow either Tebow or Quinn the chance to build on their previous season.
by SoCalBroncsFan on Jul 23, 2011 12:27 PM MDT up reply actions
Yeah they've had a long run without a good QB
Warning: If you're reading this it has been censored.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
by CPT.Caveman on Jul 23, 2011 12:33 PM MDT up reply actions
He inspired the 12th man more than Orton too then. :).
Tim Tebow wears 3WM and drinks Tuscan whole milk.
by BroncoMath101 on Jul 23, 2011 12:06 PM MDT up reply actions
How about Champ or Dawkins inspiring someone because Im quite sure Orton inspired our offense to exceed everyone expectations . How many here claimed we would have no passing game because the Beast was traded
But our defense was dead last and you wanna talk about Orton not inspiring the highest paid players on the team to do there jobs ?
I love how Flaaco has to inspire Ray Lewis and company to do there jobs ?
Or how Cutler has to tell Urlacher and Briggs to show up ?
or how Big Ben is yelling at Troy and co to do there jobs and show up
…oh wait no they dont because the highest paid starts on those teams defenses hold there own units accountable they dont need a qb to police them they police themselves.
I get and agree with your points.
However, there just is no convincing 82% of the fans that disagree and blame Orton. If Orton starts week 1 it will be bad for Orton. That’s all I was pointing out. I have no animosity towards him, which is why I would like to see him traded to the best situation for him. The Broncos is not the best situation anymore…in fact, starting for the Broncos is quite possible the worst situation he could be in come week 1.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
Oh I know that he had no chance no matter what he did .
I said back in January that there was no scenario that I could see Orton returning to the Broncos . I didnt see where the trust would come from then and I dont see where it would come from now . Fox wasnt here but you dont think that going back and playing for Mccoy,Xander,Studdesville has him shaking his head .
Ive said before that I felt Orton had demanded a trade and Elways and Foxs comments was a way to offer a olive branch while they evaluated the situation and decided what they wanted to do . But its no coincidence that Orton has not made one comment in regard to his playing situation since the season ended .
Then Orton is smart.
He knows he has no chance to win back the fans and playing in front of them would just be hell. Fans are the most unforgivable bastards on Earth.
Hopefully Tebow works out. I still believe Orton would not have brought the rings I so desire, so I’m not sad he is going. I won’t be happy until there is no doubt we have a top 3 QB in this league. I blame Elway….but 5 Super Bowl appearances will do that too. ;-)
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
Its not a matter of win back he never had them to begin with . A good portion of this fan base has been out of touch with the rest of the league for quite some time
I could care less about a top 3 qb I would take a top ten qb and a top ten defense and a change in organizational philosophy that build around winning philosophy then hoping to find that one player to save us .
I blame Elway too for creating a illusion of among the fanbase that one guy is gonna save them in todays game.
I would much rather be the Steelers than the Colts anyday of the week in todays NFL.
by Hoopforia on Jul 23, 2011 3:16 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Colts...you wait. When Manning goes you will see just how important he is to their success.
I maintain the Colts are nothing more than a 5-11 club.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
????? Elway created an illusion that one guy would save us.
Please provide some context for this statement. Considering Elways experience I would think he would be the last guy in the organization who would believe that.
"as in football so in life"
True that!
Look at how many years it took to get the right combination of players around John to finally win two in a row
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 23, 2011 5:24 PM MDT up reply actions
Im not saying he believes it but I sure as heck can say that the majority of the fanbase believes it
Thats all they talk about NO MATTER WHAT . …..One guy saving us
Can't have it both ways Hoop,
To say you blame him for creating the illusion and then turn around and say that you’re not saying he believes it is just a tad bit contradictory my friend. So you blame him for creating an illusion that you know he doesn’t believe in?
As for the majority of the fan base I’m not sure anyone can accurately predict what the majority believes. The most common opinion I hear seems to be that many people are very interested in giving Tebow a chance to play and see how he does. Of course there are those who see him as the one guy to save the franchise but I wouldn’t say that they’re the majority.
"as in football so in life"
No there the ones who play him on Madden:P
Warning: If you're reading this it has been censored.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
by CPT.Caveman on Jul 23, 2011 10:32 PM MDT up reply actions
Well Im not because I never said Elway said anything . I was referring to Elway creating the illusion with his play while also making fun of Tims blaming Elway as well.
I dont believe Elway believes that one guy can save the team and his comments over the past few months points to that .
Without a defense thats at least average we arent going anywhere and 40 years of history tells us that .
Good Point Hoop. An average QB can win alot with a top 5 defense.
My question is this. Do you think Denver can have a top 5 defense this year?
"The problem with quotes in internet signatures is 90% of them are made up -Ghandi"
The minority is saying Tebow will save us.
The majority is saying let Tebow start because he could be much better than Orton and we want to see it. That’s it.
Tim Tebow wears 3WM and drinks Tuscan whole milk.
by BroncoMath101 on Jul 23, 2011 10:24 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
True that!
The majority is actually saying that it will take a few more drafts and a few more years of excellent player development for the great OVER ALL team nucleus to come to a gel.
Even then, the stars must align themselves properly for us to win it ALL!!!
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 23, 2011 10:29 PM MDT up reply actions
U go Bro!!!
I don’t know anyone who thinks that one player can save any team. However…one player can be, and has been a game changer for many teams and has done it consistently, and they aren’t all QB’s by any stretch!
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 23, 2011 11:01 PM MDT up reply actions
True that.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
Flacco didn't need to inspire Ray because their D was already top 5 and they drafted good leaders and talented players who do their job well.
Cutler has no need to tell Urlacher and Briggs to do the same either.
Big Ben also doesn’t need to do the same with their D.
I never said that Tebow needs to be the defensive leader. All I said was that his inspired play also inspired the D and the O to play better. He laid it all on the line and they saw the example and decided to do the same. People want to follow natural leaders that’s all. Nobody said Dawkins or Champ aren’t leaders. I’m just pointing out that both units played with more passion in the last 3 games than for most of the season. Especially from behind. It was obvious during the last 3 games and if you missed it then sorry.
Tim Tebow wears 3WM and drinks Tuscan whole milk.
by BroncoMath101 on Jul 23, 2011 3:56 PM MDT up reply actions
So true
The team with Tebow at the helm was a completely different team than we saw with Orton. I went to both of the home games and I felt the energy first hand. No logic can explain why we played better, but my eyes didn’t deceive me. The team had played inspired and why the wins weren’t there I felt we had a chance in each of those games
by jshaw546 on Jul 24, 2011 3:25 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
The logic is
that the O-Line was starting to gel after being injured half of the season. The same 5 guys didn’t play together until week 5 or 6. Not to mention 2 rookies starting from the get-go and learning on the fly.
The truth is, the team was elated that they finally won a game. We saw such celebrating during any touchdown because we finally scored!
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
Follow me on Twitter @MHR_KaptainKirk
So, nothing to do with Tebow KK? Nothing at all....you think Orton could have led that comeback?.....I dont.
As TD said, Tebow has the ability to elevate the play of those around him.
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Is it Free Agency yet? Wake me up when it starts!
Boydy, I was responding to
No logic can explain why we played better
I provided logic.
You have also used the Good practice player, bad game day player. I dispute that too. Football is a game of repetitions. If you can’t do it in practice, all of a sudden you can do it in a game? I don’t think so. If one of your snowboarders can’t do a 540 in practice, do you think he will be able to perform a 900 all of a sudden during a competitive run? Even if he/she is the most talented athlete you’ve ever seen? Again, I don’t think so.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
Follow me on Twitter @MHR_KaptainKirk
Totally different situation...I am not going to ask one of my athletes to perform a new trick or skill....
But, yeah, I have given the go ahead to TONS of my athletes to do a trick in comp they have been struggling with.
You know why? Because they are GAMERS. And some athletes are like that. I know with my elite guys they will step up to the plate, regardless of whether they TRAIN like crap…and it happens FREQUENTLY!
Thats, from my observations, is exactly the type of ATHLETE Tim Tebow is…he is good under the gun, under the pump.
I have an athlete EXACTLY like him. Won a bronze in the 2002 Olympics, made a comeback in 2008 with the whole snowboard competition world saying he had no chance. You know what, he had an impeccable history, had won at every level…X Games, Grand Prixs but yet he was doubted by everyone…he cant come back and compete at that level…well, he did. We worked hard, learnt NEW mechanics…TOTALLY broke down his riding and he would BATTLE in training, but I new when game time came he would land runs…he had that ability to narrow his focus and let INSTINCTS take over. And guess what? He was getting great results, improving EVERY week and event, and still putting up STELLAR performances because he was a GAMER……and now he is one of the best in the world again. Sounds eerily similar to a kid that people want Orton to start over.
Not trying to sound conceited, but now you are talking about my career, and unless you have worked with world class elite athletes, you sometimes dont know what you are looking at unless you know what to look for.
I am not expert on mechanics, spirals or any other that football jargon, but I can tell you what…I know when I see an elite athlete, because the intangibles that you see between the greats of any sport are similar.
JJ’s story is the same as Tebows, and anyone who is betting against him just is not seeing the kid for what he is.
I am just bloody glad hes a bronco, because there just aint many like him.
Not trying to reem you KK, and not meaning to come off as a smart ass, but you asked a question, and I gave you an answer then some.
Thanks for the discussion mate, as always!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Is it Free Agency yet? Wake me up when it starts!
You didn't ream me
and I have no problems with you my friend.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
Follow me on Twitter @MHR_KaptainKirk
by KaptainKirk on Jul 24, 2011 10:42 PM MDT up reply actions
Thanks KK!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Is it Free Agency yet? Wake me up when it starts!
Did you go to the previous home games ? The ones where we scored 49 points in one and 33 points in the other ?
You keep tying together the road losses with our play at home but our last 4 home games went like this
49 points
33 points
24 points
28 points
Except for the first one...
most of those points came when the opposing D was playing prevent because they were ahead by so much.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
As you know firsthand Tim, fans can be very wrong!
You are a good example on Cutler and McD. Chicago fans are another great example. They thought Rex Grossman was the answer to all of their QB prayers. Then Cutler was going to walk on Lake Michigan.
You are completely wrong if you believe that Orton has issues with his confidence. During the past three seasons, he’s been rated top 10 until he has played with injuries.
Enough of the leadership criticism..His leadership abilities were never questioned in Chicago. Most on MHR admired his leadership and work ethic up until the 2010 drafting of Tebow.
Btw, I voted that a trade is the best solution for KO.
by rocko1 on Jul 23, 2011 11:24 AM MDT reply actions 2 recs
We also continued to support him during the early part of the season.
My own posts show that, but as time wore on and he continued to falter my opinions changed. Wrong or not, there is no way 82% of the people change their minds by Week 1. This poll here only validates that. People’s minds are hard to change, sometimes they can evolve, but it takes consistent action to do that.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
KO has no confidence issues that I see
To have held the bitterness in check through all the crazy situations in which he has found himself takes supreme confidence in my opinion.
by idahobronc on Jul 23, 2011 10:58 PM MDT up reply actions 3 recs
You know...you might be right.
I may have reached sort of far with the confidence stuff.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
Awesome analysis of Kyle Orton bro...
I think you hit this whole thing on the end right here, and I’m curious to see what we can get out of his services. From reading around the web, Kyle is considered the 2nd best option out there (behind Palmer).
"When Tim Tebow does pushups, he's not pushing himself up, he's pushing the world down."
"Gear down there big shifter This is the "No Bull" review man…" a total Lebowski-esque one liner from Sadaraine, whether he realizes it or not - comedic gold.
I think he's the best
Kolb is unproven, Palmer is old and underperforming. Orton, if anything, is underrated by his fans and the league.
GGN Moderator, House pessimist, veteran arm chair GM.
www.GangGreenNation.com
I agree with you that he is the best QB available on the market for sure.
Tim Tebow wears 3WM and drinks Tuscan whole milk.
by BroncoMath101 on Jul 23, 2011 12:08 PM MDT up reply actions
I don't get the hype over Kolb.
He hasn’t done jack and he was impressive in ONE game. Whoa! lol
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
I thought he was mediocre at best in filling in for Vick
I don’t get it either.
GGN Moderator, House pessimist, veteran arm chair GM.
www.GangGreenNation.com
Andy Reid has propped this guy uo to be something and the Kevin "Corn" Kolb up the MSM won't settle down anytime soon...
At least until their rears are so sore from talking about him that they have to pull it out…
by bfree2bronc on Jul 23, 2011 12:23 PM MDT up reply actions
on the head, not end.
I guess I’m Emmitt Smith today (long in da mouf).
"When Tim Tebow does pushups, he's not pushing himself up, he's pushing the world down."
"Gear down there big shifter This is the "No Bull" review man…" a total Lebowski-esque one liner from Sadaraine, whether he realizes it or not - comedic gold.
You guys are crazy
far and away the best QB you have on your roster.
GGN Moderator, House pessimist, veteran arm chair GM.
www.GangGreenNation.com
from a pure mechanics standpoint I agree completely. I think it takes more than that to be a great QB though.
Orton is good, no question. I just don’t think he is great and I’m not sure he will be great. If he stays, I hope he does become great. If he goes, I hope the same for him.
Tim Tebow wears 3WM and drinks Tuscan whole milk.
by BroncoMath101 on Jul 23, 2011 12:07 PM MDT up reply actions
Perhaps on the field experience
coupled with his mobility will bring Tebow around.
I certainly trust the judgment of Fox and Elway over my own.
GGN Moderator, House pessimist, veteran arm chair GM.
www.GangGreenNation.com
+1000
Majority of our fans completely lost it the day TT was drafted.
I disagree.
I think the Broncos gained a bunch of irrational fans the day TT was drafted. Most of us lost faith in Orton during the 2011 season, not when TT was drafted.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
It's like that with every draft pick.
Look at MHR when we drafted Jarvis Moss or Knowshon Moreno. :) It’s the nature of being a fan…you want to believe that our organization is infallible. A lot of that sigma has been destroyed in the final years of Shanny and definitely after McD.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
Shanny destroyed it for me, so I was just a few years ahead of you guys when I was all over McD’s many mistakes as most of you were still pounding McD’s spoiled Kool-Aid.
Now that we’re all at rock bottom, we’re able to see more clearly and most of us see Tebow as our future.
The Lockout bores me.
Congratulations.
You fell faster than the rest of us. Not sure if that’s something to be proud of.
A little nasty on defense would be nice.
Just to clarify,
before you take that wrong, I admire your knowledge of the fact that McD was in the process of destroying our franchise before any of us cared to admit it.
A little nasty on defense would be nice.
I was not a fan of Tebow during the draft. I thought it was a joke we drafted him in the 1st round.
I know that there were many others who thought the same but once he was a Bronco you want to believe (like tim said) that they will be good. You start looking at their potential and past their flaws and believe the best (until they prove you otherwise). Many of those people who were against the Tebow pick have been converted by his passion for the game and his intensity on the field. Myself included.
Tim Tebow wears 3WM and drinks Tuscan whole milk.
by BroncoMath101 on Jul 23, 2011 3:58 PM MDT up reply actions
It is true rocko that some times our eyes deceive us into thinking probable, possible solutions when the solution was right in front of our faces all the time.
Like build the offense around Kyle Orton and that’s what McD was trying to do, but when McD drafted Tim Tebow the writing was on the wall don’t you think?
by bfree2bronc on Jul 23, 2011 12:28 PM MDT up reply actions
I agree Bill!
What makes everyone so sure that Tebow was McD’s idea? Just maybe Bowlen was the mastermind of trading half the draft for a prospect that had late 2nd/early 3rd round written all over him. Why did McD refuse to start Tim even after the season was a lost cause and Orton was injured?
No conspiracy there. Drafting Tebow was all McD
He went down to florida and spent a day with him and all that jazz. He was also in charge of the 2010 draft and spent 3 picks to get him. Tebow was all McD hands down.
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
How does that support your conspiracy theory
and since when is Bowlen so heavily involved in our drafts?
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
I agree...if we were talking about Al Davis or Jerry Jones I would probably agree.
Bowlen has a long history of not getting involved in drafts or player personnel.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
Drafting Tebow was the beginning of the end for McD
The 2009 team was weak in running the ball and couldn’t stop the run. The coaching staff also had issues. Kyle Orton was probably the team’s MVP for the 2009 season. Why would the HC/GM draft a QB in the first round and give up numerous draft picks…thus completely failing to address the weaknesses on the team. The 2010 team was even weaker on run defense and running the ball. We needed to draft a offensive threat at TE as well, but didn’t have the draft picks. Tim Tebow turned into a major distraction for the 2010 team and the coaching staff. You could definitely see the effect that this had on McDaniels. Designing gimmick plays for TT and the media frenzie arounfd the team. Why would a HC pull his QB off the field after successfully driving the team down the field…that had to be great for team building! Giving away the store to move back up into the 1st round to take a QB that was rated by everyone as a late 2nd/early 3rd round prospect at best just doesn’t make sense for a guy that’s was supposed to be a QB guru. Sorry but Bowlen’s fingerprints and the the greed behind merchandise sales are all over the drafting of Tim Tebow!
by rocko1 on Jul 23, 2011 1:51 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Man. You really got to get over your Tebow hatred.
Unless you plan on taking your fandom wherever Orton goes – it is what it is. Tebow is the QB now, its time to evaluate him. 2011 is going to be rough as it usually is on any young QB. I’m going to do my best to bite my lip. I’ll start to become more unforgiving come 2012.
Kyle Orton is a veteran now. His performance in big situations last year were unforgivable in my own eyes, which is why I “hate” on him as you think I do. It was never personal. At this point, my opinion is the dominate opinion in Bronco Country, so the best thing for Kyle Orton is to move on to a place that will give him another fair shake – for he has none left here in Denver.
Again. The situation is what it is. Honestly, if Orton ended up starting Week 1 by some miracle. I’ll be happy…happy football is being played. lol I’m not going to destroy him for every little mistake that is made as ever other fan probably will in the stadium. You have to look at every angle and make a decision. I am sorry you and I just never seemed to be able to see eye to eye.
The beginning of the end of McD was on a Thursday night game against the Giants. I honestly believe he “lost the team” that night.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
No hatred for Tebow.
“my opinion is the dominant opinion” ..who gives a crap about that? you swim with the school! doesn’t change the fact that Peyton Manning couldn’t have won with this team last year. It was a piss poor group of talent Tim. The franchise has completely lost the ability to evaluate and draft talent. 2009 laid a blueprint on what had to be improved for the 2010 season. you’re blind if you think that was the QB play. You lack a true understanding of the sport if you truely(which I doubt) believe the blame falls on kyle Orton.
You might be interested in how good the Colts are without Manning...
I only pointed out that the prevailing opinion is the one that will make playing for the Broncos in 2011 unbearable for Orton. It wasn’t a slight on you.
I don’t blame Orton. I keep saying it is what it is and the fact is, Orton won’t be given a chance to redeem himself by the fans. I’m being a realist. :)
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
I think KO is more than tough enough to handle anything
the irrational Broncos fanbase(along with their head cheerleader Woody Paige) can throw his way! Orton afterall played for the Bears for 4 years and made it out of Chicago with his career more than intact. All the more reason to believe that Kyle is one tough ballplayer and winner!
Rocko, if it is not Tebow hatred we sense,
is it a super-high respect for KO? I remember you saying soon after I first noted your posting on MHR that you respected the Broncos for having success with Orton (during the 6 game winning streak that started his first season with us).
The problem with KO is
that he will never be a “game changer”.
Game changers are what we are looking for on both the O and D, and Kyle is not in that category. I see defensive guys win games for teams on a consistent basis, and they make the MVP list for that year.
Every team is looking for that guy at QB. If you don’t believe that KO is it, then this discussion is over!
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 23, 2011 11:11 PM MDT up reply actions
At 4-12
It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that there is a lot more wrong with the team than the quarterback position. Orton never was a longterm solution though, not even under McD. To think anything else is unrealistic. Thats exactly why McD traded for Brady Quinn, even before he drafted Tebow. I was very critical of both moves. Seeing Quinn in the preseason, I wasn’t impressed. Seeing Orton blow it time after time in close games and panic whenever we got behind, I wasn’t impressed. Tebow is the only QB that I watched last year that actually even remotely impressed me. That being said, Orton doesn’t deserve all the blame for 2010, but he should be held accountable for his many gaffs in clutch time and his lack of mental toughness. He lost us some games that a quarterback with more confidence would have won for us. His record as a Broncos starter is 11-29 which is the only stat that really counts when it comes to your quarterback. Jake Plummer was benched with a far better winning percentage.
Peyton could have won 5 more games with our team IMO. I don't know how anyone can say he would not have won with us.
We had arguably one of the best WR corps in the league. Manning is one of the best at picking up the blitz. He has a track record of burning teams when they blitz him. Regardless of our D we would have scored 27-30 PPG and that would have won us some games this year for sure.
Tim Tebow wears 3WM and drinks Tuscan whole milk.
by BroncoMath101 on Jul 23, 2011 4:03 PM MDT up reply actions 4 recs
Once Again
BroncoMath knows that 1+1 always equals 2! The game that most sticks out in my mind most is the Jets game. We probably win that game with another QB.
A BIG + 1
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 23, 2011 4:09 PM MDT up reply actions
I thought it was the Steelers game!
Playcalling was terrible!
"Tebow is the QB now"
Didn’t realize your name was John Fox.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
Got me.
I was speaking from a POV that Orton wouldn’t like starting for us.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
And McD gushed about him before the draft and in every interview about him. It was plain that McD loved him.
Tim Tebow wears 3WM and drinks Tuscan whole milk.
by BroncoMath101 on Jul 23, 2011 3:59 PM MDT up reply actions
Although, to be fair,
it was McD saying after KOs struggles in his last few games that Tebow just wasn’t ready.
true but my point was that it was McD who was responsible for drafting him. Not someone else.
Tim Tebow wears 3WM and drinks Tuscan whole milk.
by BroncoMath101 on Jul 24, 2011 10:06 AM MDT up reply actions
I did loose it
I thought it was a very boneheaded move to draft Tebow, especially after dealing Hillis to get Quinn. But after seeing Tebow start at the end of last season, it is easy to see the kid has something that Orton does not, and its not just mobility. He energized the offense, especially in the Houston game. Orton seems to quit when the opposing team hangs 14 points on him. Tebow seemed to relish that challenge and he pulled out a win.
Tim Lynch was right in saying that the Raiders debacle last season went along way in turning the fans against Orton. Wether it is fair or not, it is the truth. Orton quit playing in that game the second we were behind two touchdowns and imploded when we went down three.
by CH74 on Jul 23, 2011 12:37 PM MDT up reply actions 3 recs
See i thought the team imploded at 3 TDs down, but that's just my opinion.
Warning: If you're reading this it has been censored.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
Thats proabably a fair assessment
I just remember watching Orton’s demeanor after his pick six, there was no fight left in him and it was the first offensive play from scrimage.
I take it you watch every Broncos game?
I do. My opinion is that Orton has peaked, Tebow is barely scratching the surface. So from a shortsighted view, yes Orton is our best option NOW. This isn’t about best options, its about the best option to return to the Super Bowl. Orton isn’t that guy, so its time to find out if Tebow might be.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
Yes, my opinion is inferior to yours
have a nice day.
GGN Moderator, House pessimist, veteran arm chair GM.
www.GangGreenNation.com
lol.
Feel free to take my comment the wrong way. :)
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
+1
If this be Hell, let us make the most of it!
by Trinidad Jack on Jul 23, 2011 12:26 PM MDT up reply actions
Right or wrong we're always right...Right?
by bfree2bronc on Jul 23, 2011 12:34 PM MDT up reply actions
Absolutely!!!!
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 23, 2011 5:41 PM MDT up reply actions
Those of you who think you know it all are very annoying to those of us who do! ;-)
"It is our attitude at the beginning of a difficult task which, more than anything else, will affect its successful outcome." - William James
by FloridaFan62 on Jul 24, 2011 2:35 PM MDT up reply actions
The fact that Orton's confidence (and play) drops when pressured is why he needs to go.
If he can’t feel confident that he can hold off a young “project” QB then that means he either isn’t a mentally tough QB that can get you a win when you’re down or that “project” QB is better than most people think.
by SoCalBroncsFan on Jul 23, 2011 12:08 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
This Kyle Orton issue won't go away until he's either traded or let go in 2012 when he's a free agent.
Trade or not to trade that’s the question? I have stated before in several references that Kyle Orton’s services should be dissolved as a Bronco even if I felt that he “COULD” succeed with a team that is missing a piece or two to be in competition for the playoffs. Kyle needs a solid OLine with a good scheme that they are ‘all’ familiar with (the Broncos OLine struggled with new scheme, new players and injuries) that will give him time to make the throws he is capable of throwing. Kyle’s limited mobility is one of his weaknesses that won’t go away, it’s a part of his game that OC’s have to game plan with and build the offense to it…It can be done.
Kyle needs a solid running game and even though the Broncos tried to put that area together, they have had their struggles in the 2 years Kyle has been here. Kyle wasn’t afforded that balanced offense that is so sorely needed to succeed. Given a good to great running game and Kyle will be fun to watch on any team and could take them where they need to go.
Kyle had the one of best tool chests in the league with the wide receivers on board and he used them quite well considering the circumstances of the first two categories I listed…He throws a beautiful pass acurately to his receivers when he has time to find them in space. Timing plays a critical part in completions and I give Kyle the edge there over his receivers and with more time and continuity there is no reason why he couldn’t be in the top 5 in passing…
John Fox has made it pretty clear that he wants to ‘rebuid’ the Broncos from the draft, this part we know. He doesn’t want a player that has fuzzy feelings of what he has or had from his prior regime and will eventually, if he stays on as HC start replacing them. John Fox wants a ‘gamer’ for his signal caller. I feel we have 3 on board that could be gamers given the right talent around them, so I don’t really see that as a clue that Tim Tebow is penciled in and Kyle is gone or even that Brady Quinn doesn’t have a chance…Competition is grand in all areas of positions and I love that part of building a winning team.
Kyle orton is in ‘twixt’ because as you said Tim, McD must of thought he could make a franchise quarterback out of Tim Tebow or he wouldn’t have given up so much to get him. The fact that McD saw something in Tebow and drafted him at #25 of the 2009 draft left little doubt that Kyle Orton’s days as a Bronco were being counted and now we are at that point of decision making on EFX’s part? Who do they want to be the highest regarded position holder on the team? With the circumstances surrounding the Denver Broncos I feel it is better to trade Orton to a team that has a chance to move forward in their division and see what Tim Tebow can do. It is the rebuilding phase once again that McD started in ‘09 and it’s sad that we have to do it all over again, but this part was already set in motion during the 2010 draft when Tebow was selected. Either get ready for it or mope about it, it’s inevitable to happen…
One thing that has always bothered me about this game...
…is that this game chews good people up, sucks everything it can get from them, and spits them out like a used wad of tobacco. He came to the Broncos as “the after thought” during the Culter/McDaniels fiasco. He was never given a reliable vote of confidence by management, as evidenced by the failure to give him a long term contract and the drafting Tebow. And he has handled it all with class and dignity.
If nothing else, he has earned our respect and deserves to be treated that way.
If this be Hell, let us make the most of it!
by Trinidad Jack on Jul 23, 2011 12:19 PM MDT reply actions 12 recs
Jon Kitna 2.0
you can make an argument he’s actually done better then Orton and yet has been treated worse. It sucks but that’s life of a good, but not franchise, QB.
If you reply to a comment/post/fanshot of mine, I will more likely then not respond to it, unless you come off like a d-bag.
by DBroncs1414 on Jul 23, 2011 12:49 PM MDT up reply actions
perfectly stated
He is done, those who think he isn’t need to look at his contract and nothing more. It will better when he is playing for a team who wants him. He was used as a finger to stick in a hole in the dam but unfortunately, there are way too many holes.
Interesting post
I think the main thing it made me realize though was that we’ve been spoiled, and Kyle Orton isn’t our kind of quarterback. Kyle Orton needs a top defense, a top o-line, decent receivers and a great running back. On the other hand, our greatest years were spent with Elway who could get things done without those things. Elway could take a team of fifth- to seventh-round picks and turn them into champions, Orton needs a great team to turn him into a great quarterback. This is why Tebow is our man. I’m not saying he has the skills it will take to become a top quarterback, it’s too early to call that one either way. What he does have is the power to motivate the rest of our team and turn them into champions. Just thinking about the energy he brought in those final games last year still gives me a chill and hope for our future. Elway has forever turned us into a team that needs a strong leader who can shake off the bad press and get it done the next week. It’s our M.O. And ever since Elway left, we’ve burned through several good quarterbacks looking for the next guy who can take a hold of the reins and keep our team steady no matter how much talent is on it. IMO, Tebow could be that man.
None of us go out and play for stats. You just do whatever you can to help the team out. -- Eddie Royal
by Poster_Formerly_Known_As_Royal_Fan on Jul 23, 2011 12:21 PM MDT reply actions
Does he need a TOP defense, O-line, running game, etc.
or just something other than the worst in the league? Everyone keeps saying Orton can’t succeed without an overwhelming defense. How do we know? In Denver he hasn’t even had the benefit of an ordinary defense.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
Because he couldn't keep the starting job when he had an overwhelming defense, maybe?
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
Orton is unbeleivable!
pulling out the 2005 card I see. The only year he played with a good defense. went 10-5 as a rookie. My how the 85% were dead wrong!
lol ok.
He still got benched – which was my point. Calm down…my bias is towards reality.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
Okay, so Orton got benched after his rookie season . . .
Now tell us WHY he was benched.
-
BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!
Because his win/loss record was the only good thing about him that year
He had the lowest quarterback rating of all qualified quarterbacks that year and was only successful because the Bears had a great defense and running game. Basically he did a great job of not screwing up too bad. This is why he was the third-string QB the following year.
None of us go out and play for stats. You just do whatever you can to help the team out. -- Eddie Royal
by Poster_Formerly_Known_As_Royal_Fan on Jul 23, 2011 5:17 PM MDT up reply actions
Probably for the same reasons he was benched in Denver.
I’m not a Bears fan…never have been. ;-) I only recall Grossman’s bombing ways…Orton who? It’s like all those non-Broncos fans having opinions on our QB situation – they know very little because they don’t watch all the damn games. lol
I’ll take your arguments more seriously than those who don’t watch the games – just sayin. Actually, what I’m really sayin’ is that I don’t know why he was benched. ;-)
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
According the Chicago Bears PR department (see a fuller explanation below)
Orton was benched in his sophomore year because the Bears GM of the time wanted a veteran QB backing up Grossman and brought in Brian Griese to serve that role.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Jul 23, 2011 6:19 PM MDT up reply actions
And yet you continue to fail to see how HE played that season
Near the bottom of the NFL in EVERY statistical category. He was no valuable part of that team. At all.
He leads a team that finished 2004 at 5-11 to a 10-5 start in 2005 and gets no credit!
Is it crack or heroin that you’re on tonight?
I'm on cocaine.
WINNING!
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
The Lynch mob pulls the stats card when Orton goes 10-5 and
impressive stats don’t count when he goes 11-17 when surrounded by crap for talent in Denver. That must be crack cocaine!
Hey now...I am going to make HT into a Kyle Orton news fest tomorrow.
So why don’t you be a little nicer, eh?
I didn’t pull the stats card…I called all stats worthless strawmen tactics. Even when I use them.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
And also, when we were 6-0, our defense was at the top of the NFL
When it crumpled, so did he. And, IMO, he tends to take a lot of time in the pocket. So he needs a good O-line to hold people off, a good running back to keep them on their heels. My main point though was that he not only seems to need the full support and confidence of the people around him, he needs them to pull him through when the going gets tough. Elway spoiled us with great comebacks, and without the proper surrounding cast, Orton can’t be that person. Tebow already has done it.
None of us go out and play for stats. You just do whatever you can to help the team out. -- Eddie Royal
by Poster_Formerly_Known_As_Royal_Fan on Jul 23, 2011 2:58 PM MDT up reply actions
TT could be that man
but chances are he isn’t. The chances of Denver getting a QB as good as Elway in the next 2 decades are basically zero, since Elway IMO was the GOAT, and there are ~3-5 “HOF caliber” QBs per decade… by the time the other 32 teams get their QBs, etc., it could be a long-hard wait if that is the standard.
As you point out, the fans are the problem, not the QB… So why are we considering listening to the spoiled idiots again?
by cjfarls on Jul 23, 2011 3:26 PM MDT up reply actions 3 recs
You're right, we'll probably have to wait a long, long time before we get another HOF QB
But my point is Denver has become accustomed to Elway’s style of play, and Tebow is the closest thing we’ve seen to being the kind of baller that Elway was. Will he reach Elway’s level? Probably not. But he’ll play the game the way most fans want our quarterback to play it. He’ll lead the team, sacrifice himself and give every play his all. He will never quit, which will result in many comebacks. It may sound stupid, but I’d rather watch the Broncos play our style of football than have a QB like Peyton Manning come in and make us a different team. You can’t win the Super Bowl every year, so we might as well win and lose in a style that fits us.
None of us go out and play for stats. You just do whatever you can to help the team out. -- Eddie Royal
by Poster_Formerly_Known_As_Royal_Fan on Jul 23, 2011 3:34 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
I didn't like Elway because of his style...
I liked him because he was IMO the best QB ever to play the game. I liked him because he was good, just like I love watching Manning, Brady, etc.
TT could play a very exciting style, give all his heart, etc. and give-up 3 turnovers a game…. He might lead 4 comebacks a year… and win at most 5 games per year, because his flaws are what put the team behind in the first place…. he could be exciting, and still completely suck.
You saying you want that over Orton, who is equal to or better than ~50%+ of other NFL starters (in both 09 and 10, he was 12th in footballoutsider’s DVOA efficiency, the best stat I know of that aggregates points, 1st downs, yards, and is adjusted by situation and opposing DEF)?
by cjfarls on Jul 23, 2011 9:09 PM MDT up reply actions 3 recs
Take out the IMO please.
because he was IMO the best QB ever to play the game
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
Agreed, take out the IMO lol.
First of all though, I have a problem with you saying Tebow could win 5 games per year at the most. If I thought that was likely I’d never throw my support behind him. But that’s exactly where I see our team with Orton, since we won’t have the kind of supporting cast he would need for many years to come. I believe Tebow on the other hand can find ways to win with less, and that’s the it factor that Elway had, and what I’ll always want our quarterback to have.
As far as Orton, I could really care less about the stats. I care about what I saw on Sunday, and that was a quarterback who couldn’t overcome squat if he had to. And as far as Manning and Brady, I hate watching them. They’re football stars not football players. They can’t get touched and they look like a scared child when they run the ball. I want a QB that’s not afraid to build up the rushing yards like Elway did. If it turns out our next HOF quarterback plays that style, I’m sure I’ll come around, but until then I just want to enjoy the game. And since Orton’s not a HOFer and Tebow might not be (too early to tell, either way), I’d rather watch the one who plays the game like it’s meant to be and can get up smiling after taking a hit.
None of us go out and play for stats. You just do whatever you can to help the team out. -- Eddie Royal
by Poster_Formerly_Known_As_Royal_Fan on Jul 23, 2011 9:49 PM MDT up reply actions
And by *that style* I was referring to Brady and Manning's
Just reread my post and saw that got kind of confusing on the part about our next HOF quarterback.
None of us go out and play for stats. You just do whatever you can to help the team out. -- Eddie Royal
by Poster_Formerly_Known_As_Royal_Fan on Jul 23, 2011 9:54 PM MDT up reply actions
Sorry for the confusion
I’m not saying TT’s limit is 5 at most… all I meant is he could potentially be that bad… or he could be great, we just don’t know. Subjectively, I think long-term TT is likely to be at least as good as Orton (~50th percentile of NFL starters), but it may take him a year or 3 to get there… Orton is there now. In a bad case, I see TT long-term as similar to Garrard… in a good case he’s Phillip Rivers/Drew Brees caliber (though different style), if not better.
I guess we just disagree on the style thing and I think Manning has a good argument for being GOAT himself. I’d love to see that on the Broncos.
The question remains however:
Would you rather have a mobile, passionate “TT” version of David Garrard or a “Drew Brees”-quality QB (I won’t even make you compare to a HOFer), even if it means the Broncos lose more than we would with the better QB?
I personally take “Drew Brees” everytime, because what I care about are wins, not style.
That's the question I was asking myself the whole time I was responding
Basically, it all comes down to playoff wins for me. Right now, I don’t see us getting into the playoffs no matter who our quarterback would be. I’d love to be wrong on this one, but I think we’re a young team that’s building for the future right now. If we were in a situation where a Brees/Manning style quarterback could come in and win some playoff games, there’s no way I could oppose it. But since I’m not looking forward to that happening, I just want to see good football games, and a team that fights to the end even in losses. That’s what I think we’ll get from Tebow, and what I didn’t see from Orton.
In a few years though, I think we could easily be a team that could have a killer defense, run game and line. If Tebow hasn’t come around by then, and his best season is just 5 wins, I’d be all for plugging in the right quarterback, no matter what his style, to bring all the pieces of the puzzle together.
Basically, I think Tebow could be great and in 3 years the rest of the team will be too. Until then, he’ll keep us fighting even when we’re losing, which hopefully will result in no more blowouts at Mile High. So the short answer to your question is I’ll take a Brees when we’re good enough to win playoff games with one (Or as long as it would take to prove that Tebow doesn’t have what it takes).
None of us go out and play for stats. You just do whatever you can to help the team out. -- Eddie Royal
by Poster_Formerly_Known_As_Royal_Fan on Jul 24, 2011 9:10 PM MDT up reply actions
Royal, think the Packers when Rodgers started...they went 6- 10 but lost 7 by 7 or less...that could be this young teams track...lots of close games...and in a couple of seasons we start winning close ones!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Is it Free Agency yet? Wake me up when it starts!
Agreed
I’m definitely hoping Tebow is our guy for a long time to come, and we see a situation play out like that. Nothing could make me happier.
None of us go out and play for stats. You just do whatever you can to help the team out. -- Eddie Royal
by Poster_Formerly_Known_As_Royal_Fan on Jul 25, 2011 11:40 AM MDT up reply actions
If the team is losing close...
Wouldn’t putting a better QB in result in more wins?
The team may still not go deep in the playoffs while the DEF, etc. gels, but given the weak AFCW, a 6-10 team team under TT losing close games could be a 8-8 or 9-7 team under Orton, and we make the playoffs/win the division.
Nothing prevents TT from continuing developing on the bench, and if/when Orton gets hurt, we then have a good backup too.
I guess my preference is win now, worry about the future when it matters. I’m not willing to sacrifice wins today under the hope that it somehow gets us more tomorrow. TT will get his shot… he may even beat out Orton this year… but if TT is not the best QB on the roster, I just don’t think he should be starting.
The 13% will flip at a post such as this
But I agree its the right thing to do. I don’t blame Orton for the crappy season, but there’s no denying he’s the face of it. I think it’ll be better for all parties if he’s traded. I wish him the best wherever he goes, he’s a nice guy and a solid QB, but his time in Denver is over.
If you reply to a comment/post/fanshot of mine, I will more likely then not respond to it, unless you come off like a d-bag.
Let the trades begin
so we can put this behind us and move on. It is time for a change and it is time for us to fix this team. From the top to the bottom. Not one player is safe on this team. If management believes we will be trading Orton or anyone else then so be it. If Orton is as good as some here are saying then that is a good thing cause he will be the first player traded and we will get a great pick or picks for him.
It is also true that we fans deserve some mercy also. Not just with a new QB but with a new coach, FO, and lets not forget we just might get a new Identity that has been far to long missing.
We need some attitude and leadership that we haven’t seen for some time now. I want to see some hunger and strength on this team again and it has to start at the QB position. If Tebow is not that guy then we move on again until we find him….Mercy, we all need some.
Here's a question for anyone and everyone.
I want to know what you guys think about the Chiefs 4th round draft pick R.Stanzi QB http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4×2UUWgv1NQ
I think this kid could be very good especially learning behind Cassel, who IMO works damn hard to be the best he can. Stanzi at this point already has a better arm than Cassel and a couple of years on the bench learning will do him some good.
Yeah i know this is off topic, but it is something different to discuss and i would like to know what you guys really think (Cavey ducks).
Warning: If you're reading this it has been censored.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
My bro in law is an Iowa fan and also a chiefs fan and doesn't like Stanzi for some reason. He wasn't very excited that the Chiefs drafted him. I'll try and find out more.
Tim Tebow wears 3WM and drinks Tuscan whole milk.
by BroncoMath101 on Jul 23, 2011 4:09 PM MDT up reply actions
Neither a Tebow or Orton fan
It looked to me like Orton was under alot of pressure from defenses and I think any quarterback, including Brady, don’t look that good when they are getting knocked around. Tebows more mobile and can run for a score but if he stays in the pocket it will change things
Wrong. Brees, Manning, etc (the really good ones) thrive during the blitz. Manning scored 10 of his touchdowns when teams blitzed him.
Brees was like 70% passing against the blitz.
Orton doesn’t thrive under pressure and in the clutch and that is what we need from our QB. 3rd downs, 4th downs, and the redzone are where we need our QB to be clutch and make plays. Orton really struggled in those areas.
Tim Tebow wears 3WM and drinks Tuscan whole milk.
by BroncoMath101 on Jul 23, 2011 4:08 PM MDT up reply actions 3 recs
It's one thing to get blitzed when you have a good line
Totally different when you have a patchwork thing like we had last year.
It’s really scary when you have a moment of temporary sanity.
Nelson DeMille
Kyle was sacked less than Phillip Rivers. What's your excuse for him?
the point is that these elite QB’s get the ball out quick. They audible and reassign their guys to pick up the blitz. They make adjustments and know the hot routes and get it out quick. They may the D pay for bringing pressure by exploiting the open space they leave behind when doing it. It isn’t just about the O-line.
Tim Tebow wears 3WM and drinks Tuscan whole milk.
by BroncoMath101 on Jul 23, 2011 4:41 PM MDT up reply actions
Rivers was sacked 38 times
Orton 34. Rivers played all 16 games, so he was sacked 2.37 times per game. Orton was sacked 2.6 times per game (he only played 13 games).
Rodgers was sacked 31 times, and played 15 games, so 2.06 per game.
Do the Math next time.
It’s really scary when you have a moment of temporary sanity.
Nelson DeMille
seriously? .3 - .6 sacks per game and Orton would have been elite? Or the O-line for that matter?
Or those guys wouldn’t have had the same numbers?
Tim Tebow wears 3WM and drinks Tuscan whole milk.
by BroncoMath101 on Jul 23, 2011 5:36 PM MDT up reply actions
Thing is
You did a straw man argument. I said it was a different thing to face a blitz when you have a veteran line. You changed it into a stat thing about sacks, and applied some fuzzy math.
And now you’re doing another straw man thing. Where did “Orton would have been elite” come from?
Are you actually saying that, for a QB to be blitzed while being guarded by a veteran O line is the same as a QB being blitzed behind a line like we had last year?
It’s really scary when you have a moment of temporary sanity.
Nelson DeMille
Your premise is straw man. Sorry, but it is.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
Which premise?
That getting blitzed when your O line is patchwork is worse than when your O line is a veteran, proven one? I don’t see any straw there.
Any response to an argument or a statement will change it to some degree, so I suppose that whether or not the response rises to the level of straw is a matter of gradation.
In that regard, I disagree with your above statement, and stand by my above statement to BroncoMath.
This is a good thing to be aware of, though. How straws can get gradated, that is. No end of confusion if we don’t keep that in mind.
It’s really scary when you have a moment of temporary sanity.
Nelson DeMille
just drawing conclusions based on your statement that a getting blitzed behind a weak line is different.
I also didn’t say he would or wouldn’t have been. I was trying to ask a question to you to figure out how differently you thought the outcome would be. I used the stats only to illustrate the point that there other O-lines out there that are as porous as ours but who have QBs that can still make plays and score points behind them so why are we using ours as an excuse for Orton?
I also know that Orton is not of the same talent level as Rivers or Rodgers and probably will never be. Which begs another question as to why people think he’s the best chance to win and a why are they opposed to see if our young 1st round QB has the potential to be?
Tim Tebow wears 3WM and drinks Tuscan whole milk.
by BroncoMath101 on Jul 23, 2011 9:51 PM MDT up reply actions
+ 1
Our O-line will be much better and more balanced this year but still, to me it isn’t about Orton not being able to do an adequate job in guiding this team through another mediocre year!
It is about the future. If we don’t think that He is THE GUY to take us to the SB and win it, then it is time to give him the opportunity to get a job with a club that will be good for him and them, and let us move forward on all fronts…JMO
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 23, 2011 9:57 PM MDT up reply actions
Check the sack levels on 3rd and 4th down.
Stats can be manipulated, but Orton had 26-30 of his sacks on 3rd and 4th down. Those are eye popping numbers too.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
Was that when
the other team knew we had no run game and had to pass and also knew we had two rookies on the O line, plus at least one no name who didn’t belong anywhere near the NFL, plus a wounded Clady?
It’s really scary when you have a moment of temporary sanity.
Nelson DeMille
by bradley on Jul 23, 2011 6:30 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
No different than most third downs in the NFL...?
My point is stats are straw men arguments – even when I’ve used them. The only way to make stats mean something is to cover every angle imaginable, which isn’t realistic.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
I don't think strawman is the correct term you are looking for here...
Stats don’t tell the whole story, but the part they do tell can be very relevant, and anything but a “strawman”.
Citing non-relevant stats to a question is a strawman argument… but stats used appropriately are very relevant… in fact, because they aren’t hindered by selection bias like an “eye test” or picking and choosing individual plays, they can be more relevant than any other type of evidence.
A strawman argument would be saying stats don’t tell the whole story, so you can ignore the lessons the person using them is trying to give evidence of… Such a statement is a “strawman” because though it is a true statement, it doesn’t address the whether the stats cited actually are relevant or not, nor the quality of the point being made.
They are straw men arguments when used out of context of that whole story.
We all do it, myself included. We use them to validate what our eyes and minds are telling us. I can’t think of anyone here or anywhere else in the media or blogosphere who does not manipulate stats to support what their eyes and minds tell them.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
depends again on how they are used
I use them to test hypotheses:
For example:
Hypothesis – Orton sucks.
Result: by pretty much every statistical metric of QB performance, that is an unsupportable argument. Only by very narrowly defining the sample (e.g. 3rd downs only), or using metrics with extreme confounding variables (W-L record) can stats support such a hypothesis.
So using stats to argue against the hypothesis of “Orton sucks” is not a strawman.
Now if the hypothesis is: “Orton was put into a poor position by his running game and defense”, stats looking at our RB performance, our DEF performance, etc. are not strawman arguments. They are relevant evidence.
It all depends on the question being asked and whether the stats being cited are relevant or not.
Stats are often misused…. but they are generally better than evidence not backed by a statistically rigorous sampling.
by cjfarls on Jul 23, 2011 9:18 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
See, all that was missing is words.
Orton sucks when put in position to win the game.
;-) Before I get crucified…I’m joking around!!!! :P
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
LMAO at U guyz...
I love the points that U make cjfaris. Stats used properly matter a lot!
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 23, 2011 9:24 PM MDT up reply actions
I still disagree.
Stats can be manipulated any way you see fit. All someone has to do is present it in a way that appears to be objective and impartial. I know people are still people, so those last two qualities are almost always lacking.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
If manipulated they arn't being used properly
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 23, 2011 9:33 PM MDT up reply actions
That's my point.
They are ALWAYS manipulated. lol The most egregious offenders are those who present “stats and research” in a way that they themselves appear impartial and objective.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
Agreed..
What is DVOA?
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 23, 2011 9:35 PM MDT up reply actions
Jeremy had something similar DVOA.
He called it NPLB. I hope he brings it back this year.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
I don't know what
DVOA means let alone what NPLB means!
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 23, 2011 9:40 PM MDT up reply actions
FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS
Defense-adjusted Value Over Average (DVOA) system that breaks down every single NFL play and compares a team’s performance to a league baseline based on situation in order to determine value over average. (Explained further here.)
OFFENSE and DEFENSE DVOA are adjusted based on strength of opponent as well as to consider all fumbles, kept or lost, as equal value. SPECIAL TEAMS DVOA is adjusted for type of stadium (warm, cold, dome, Denver) and week of season. NON-ADJUSTED TOTAL VOA does not include these adjustments.
by bfree2bronc on Jul 23, 2011 10:06 PM MDT up reply actions
Unbelievable!
Thanks 4 that and I certainly will use that site from here on out!
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 23, 2011 10:32 PM MDT up reply actions
NPLB=
No Points Left Behind
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
DAS
“Damn Acronym Syndrome” Lol
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
Follow me on Twitter @MHR_KaptainKirk
by KaptainKirk on Jul 24, 2011 10:26 AM MDT up reply actions
lol
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
I'm trying to find a stat to prove that statement wrong, be right back................................
Warning: If you're reading this it has been censored.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
by CPT.Caveman on Jul 23, 2011 10:30 PM MDT up reply actions
if someone is presenting something in a misleading way...
you should point it out…. but that doesn’t mean stats are worthless.
For example, some folks say 3rd-down conversion performance is the most critical job of a QB, I often point out that 3rd-down conversion performance is very dependent on distance-to-go…. so looking purely at the conversion % may be misleading if you don’t try to equalize for distance-to-go. But that doesn’t mean conversion % is worthless data… it is very important, it just isn’t sufficient. It also suffers from selection bias because it looks at only a narrow part of a bigger data set… and the claim that 3rd-down performance is most critical is opinion, not fact.
Simply saying, “stats don’t tell the whole picture” ignores the part of the picture stats DO illuminate. We can fight against misused stats, but we should have a reason why/how they are being misused… we can’t just say “I don’t think that is right because my subjective opinion is better than your data”.
If a stat is coming up with an odd answer, that is a major reason I try to look deeper at the data… but it also is a good reason to look at our own preconceptions to see if they are the biased factor (rather than the stats). I oftenj fine my preconceived opinion isn’t objectively defendable. The selection bias, etc. inherent to “eye tests” is often to blame….
At the same time, the “eye test” can give us nuance not available in stats….e.g. perhaps QB X is spraying everything around, but he is getting bailed out by a HOF WR that catches everything within 20 yards of him. A stat won’t tell you that… but before you claim that is the case, you should probably look at a broader sample of QBs and WRs, because every QB gets bailed out by their WRs occassionally… simply identifying a few cases doesn’t tell you if it is more/less than the average QB, and most the time it will average out. Perhaps one easy thing to check is the QBs completion to the great WR compared to other WRs on the team… if that WR has a much higher completion % than others on the team, that is a stat, when combined with the eye test, that starts us towards a hypothesis with a collection of supportable evidence and if a large number targets to the HOF WR are biasing the sample results, that is something that could be pointed out.
Bias definitely exists and no one is completely neutral, but more often it presents itself in the questions that are asked and what data is ignored, rather than what data is presented. The trick to searching for the truth is presenting a counter-hypothesis (question) and supporting information showing why the original question and data is misleading, rather than distrusting all data.
Simply saying, “I don’t like that answer because it disagrees with my subjective opinion so it must be wrong” doesn’t cut it in logical discourse if we can’t say WHY it is wrong, and present a theory and counter-evidence.
by cjfarls on Jul 23, 2011 11:31 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
"The selection bias, etc. inherent to "eye tests" is often to blame…."
is the key issue. When we talk about peeps “bending stats” to fit their opinions its all about that.
It is obvious to me that you are a math/numbers sort of person and that the #’s are of great interest to you. I am impressed by the thoughtfulness that you integrate into your posts, and I appreciate your input.
Don’t quit, and don’t take time out, because then I will have lost part of my ongoing education!
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 23, 2011 11:42 PM MDT up reply actions
too many year of economics training... a blessing and curse!
thanks for the feedback metal!
No problem!
I appreciate the fact that some peeps here don’t mind educating the rest of us based upon the expertise that comes natural to them through education, or simply from extensive experience.
We cannot gain all of the vast knowledge that is available on our own! We can, however, gain a great deal from others who are willing to share, but then, we must be equally willing to learn!
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 24, 2011 12:05 AM MDT up reply actions
A humble man learns more, than an arrogant man has time for!
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 24, 2011 12:08 AM MDT up reply actions
That was a quote...
from a friend of mine who is a writer @Street Articles.com. He is ranked #17 in a large group of writers, and U all should read a poem that he wrote!
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 24, 2011 12:20 AM MDT up reply actions
not really wrong
that would be a very valuable metric (a.k.a. QB performance when down by <7 and less than 5 minutes to go) if we had enough sample size to draw a statistically robust conclusion and a comparison against other QBs in similar situations.
That is the beauty of FootballOutsiders DVOA and why I like that stat so much. They compare “success” to other players in similar situations. By DVOA, Orton was ranked 12th in both ‘09 and ’10… he wasn’t as good as folks like Manning/Brady/etc., but was better than most other NFL QBs.
??????? DVOA
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 23, 2011 9:31 PM MDT up reply actions
FootballOutsiders.com
developed the DVOA stat by breaking down all the play-by-play data from 1994-present. DVOA stands for “Defense-adjusted Value Over Average”.
The basics is that they group every play by down, distance and game situation, and then rate its “success” based on how an average team performs in such a situation. DVOA then becomes a stat where “average” performance (say ~3 yards on a 1st-and-10 in the 2nd quarter) is a Zero, and more is positive, while less is negative.
By looking at every play over multiple years, they get enough sample size to be able to say something hopefully meaningful (the big problem with most football stats), and by looking at every single play (not just picking and choosing), they avoid a lot of selection bias.
Many thanx 2 U both for giving me the heads up!
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 24, 2011 12:16 AM MDT up reply actions
and he was sacked 19 times in under 3 seconds and 25 of those sacks came on plays of 8+ yards for a first down
So Ill ask a simple question how many sub 4 sprinters do we have on our team that can go 8+ yards in under 3 seconds
That is not uncommon...most sacks occur within 3 seconds.
If you can’t get the ball out in 4-5 seconds you are in deep trouble anyway. Just sayin’.
I’m also not taking away from the fact that we were in bad third down situations…BUT…I did the research and most of those were caused by 2nd down incomplete passes.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
I dont know about that Id say the percentage is quite small when you compare the dropoff from 2nd and long situation to 3rd and long situations. There is more than 50% dropoff for that to occur there had to be far more complete passes than incompletes
But when everyone knows there is no run coming anyway ……….
I shot from the hip...
I’d be interested in seeing some actual statistics on the average time in the pocket a QB is before he gets sacked.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
Good luck there...are U going to put in the research time for those totals?
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 23, 2011 9:26 PM MDT up reply actions
Not in this lifetime...
if I thought Orton would be a Bronco a month from now…maybe I would. He will be better off somewhere else anyway. The Broncos are good 4-5 years of STEADY progress before they’ll contend again. Orton will be in his thirties by then and fans would probably still hate him for running Tebow out of town.
Orton being traded is a good thing….for Orton.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
LMAO
he isn’t staying so no worries Mate!
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 23, 2011 9:34 PM MDT up reply actions
yeah not many 30 something QB
can get their teams to the SB let alone win one.
I'm sure the majority of sacks occur that fast.
Tim Tebow wears 3WM and drinks Tuscan whole milk.
by BroncoMath101 on Jul 23, 2011 9:58 PM MDT up reply actions
I agree that those things need to be looked at.
Here’s some fun information on Rodgers though:
On first and second down, Rodgers has a Yards Per Attempt (Y/A) — after adjusting for sacks — of 6.0. On third down his Y/A jumps to 8.1. That third-down figure ranks second only to Eli Manning’s
On an average third down, the Packers need 8.4 yards to get a first down. Only the Chiefs are worse at 8.6. The Colts and Patriots (both 5.6) are the two best teams in this metric.
do you think teams aren’t blitzing them on 3rd down? The point is not how many sacks were taken on 3rd down IMO. It is what does a player do on 3rd down when he is needed the most? Does he rise to the occasion? Is he clutch?
Tim Tebow wears 3WM and drinks Tuscan whole milk.
by BroncoMath101 on Jul 23, 2011 9:56 PM MDT up reply actions
Not sure where you got that number. Kyle was sacked 16 times on 3rd down and wasn't sacked once on 4th down.
Tim Tebow wears 3WM and drinks Tuscan whole milk.
by BroncoMath101 on Jul 23, 2011 10:30 PM MDT up reply actions
And Aaron Rodgers was only sacked 3 times less. They also didn't have a run game.
True they did have a good D but Rodgers still managed to throw 8 more TDs and have a passer rating above 100. Their O-line hasn’t been that great and they also had a rookie playing on the line.
Tim Tebow wears 3WM and drinks Tuscan whole milk.
by BroncoMath101 on Jul 23, 2011 4:45 PM MDT up reply actions
what was their starting field position?
field position has a big impact on points…
Rodgers also is one of the top QBs in the NFL, and probably the top “young” QB….no one is saying Orton is that caliber…. but the chances of any QB that good being available to us in the near future is basically zero, so why are we even making the comparison? Orton will need more help than Rodgers, but that tells us nothing about whether Orton is good enough for us to win, or the likelihood of getting someone better (TT?).
I understand stats don't paint the whole picture. If we wanted we could pick apart a statistical argument made for just about anything.
The picture I’m trying to paint however is that there are other O-lines that are bad with QB’s who are good and can still make plays and score points. Was Orton the reason he got sacked? No. Would he have done better with a better O-line? Of Course. Still, Excuses can be made for everything. I’m not talking about W/L here, I’m talking about executing on downs. I’m talking about picking up blitzes and I’m talking about scoring when it matters. I’m tired of all the excuses that are being made by people who think Orton will become a great QB if we do this or do that differently. Maybe he will but IMO even great QBs can find a way to still get things done.
Tim Tebow wears 3WM and drinks Tuscan whole milk.
by BroncoMath101 on Jul 23, 2011 9:46 PM MDT up reply actions
You gave one single, exceptional example... it is selection bias at its worst
What did the “average” QB do in such a situation?
Your argument would’ve been much stronger if you listed a representative Rodgers, Garrard, and Gradkowski… it would give a better sense of comparison of good, average, and bad. Simply pointing out Orton’s not the absolute best doesn’t tell us much.
In such a comparison looking at all NFL QBs, Orton may not look great (I have no idea)… but pointing out that he’s worse than Rodgers (or Manning or Brady, etc.) doesn’t tell us whether Orton is better than average, or completely sucky. He’s just worst than the best… he could still be very good overall.
Orton is not and will never be a HOF-caliber QB… but that doesn’t mean he isn’t good enough for us to win, win consistently, and that replacing may be more likely to set the team backwards than forwards.
FootballOutsiders, looking at every pass, every down, and every distance ranked Orton as 12th-best in the NFL in ’09 and ’10. That is actually pretty good. Tebow also rated very highly in a limited sample-size, so that is a good position for us to be in…. above average as the status quo, and great if things work out.
I don't think it takes statistics to tell us that Orton wasn't very good overall when it came to 3rd/4th down and RZ scoring.
Again my point was not to paint the picture of everything Orton can do as a QB overall. It was to illustrate that in the clutch Orton does not come through and people are making excuses that his O-line is the reason why. I am pointing out that other Qbs have similarly poor O-line protection (based on sack totals) but were able to still thrive. I’m not saying Orton is the worst in the league or even that he isn’t a good QB. I’m only saying that the excuses don’t amount to much IMO. I don’t understand why people, knowing that he will not be an elite QB, would rather keep him (for a year only) and lose any compensation we can have for him, rather than get value for him and see whether or not we have a QB who can be a great QB.
Unless those people who want Orton to start also want to sign him to a contract extension. Which also doesn’t make much sense to me.
Again, I’m not trying to paint a whole picture of Orton as a QB.
Tim Tebow wears 3WM and drinks Tuscan whole milk.
by BroncoMath101 on Jul 24, 2011 10:05 AM MDT up reply actions
As to the Red Zone scoring issue:
The Broncos with Tebow at QB the last three games were 6/9 in the red zone (67%), compared with 23/43 the other 13 games (53%). But, in the five games before Tebow took over, the Broncos were 11/14 in the red zone (79%).
It’s really scary when you have a moment of temporary sanity.
Nelson DeMille
I'd like to see the stats for TD% in the red zone.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
and keep in mind that Tebow had a swamp pakage in the redzone...
I think research into the redzone will show that when we could run successfully, either in the redzone or the drive leading up to it, we had a better scoring %.
Our best weapon, the WRs, have significantly reduced effectiveness in tight quarters.
Have courage for the great sorrows of life and patience for the small ones; and when you have laboriously accomplished your daily task, go to sleep in peace.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jul 24, 2011 10:20 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
hey tim
what was that clutch breakdown you did for Orton? I thought I had it saved and now I can’t find it…
Have courage for the great sorrows of life and patience for the small ones; and when you have laboriously accomplished your daily task, go to sleep in peace.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jul 24, 2011 10:22 AM MDT up reply actions
Was it 3rd Down and Out?
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
If it was...its dated.
I think I wrote it the week after the Rams game…can’t remember.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
This is where selection bias comes in
You remember the failures…. but you are not comparing him to the NFL average.
Orton was above average in 4thdown and RZ (3rd down, not so much, but we discussed that).
TT was GREAT in RZ, but had a small sample size… if he can keep it up over a larger sample, we may be able to make a comparison, but given the small sample size I doubt the TT vs. Orton difference is significant. He may be better, or he may be the same… we just can’t tell. Anecdotally, the eye test may tell you he’s likely to be better… but just because TT is “great” doesn’t mean Orton isn’t “good”.
Only stats can tell you whole picture. Your eye test is failing you in this one.
The packers had the #1 defense in the NFL ,they had middle of the pack starting field position and there defense had 32 takeaways...we had 18
In the end the packers scored exactly 44 more points than the Broncos did and won the SB . ….because they had the #1 defense in the NFL.
Orton is not as as good as Rodgers ….hes just not
But stop trying to act as if there situations are the same because they are not as well.
I'm not talking about Wins and Losses here. I'm talking about other QBs who were able to do great things behind a poor O-line.
I’m not saying the situations are the same either. I’m saying that there are other QBs out there will porous O-lines who still find a way to overcome the difficulty and make things happen. I’m not talking about defenses here. I’m not talking about W/L record either.
Tim Tebow wears 3WM and drinks Tuscan whole milk.
by BroncoMath101 on Jul 23, 2011 9:48 PM MDT up reply actions
and now how many do it with no defense AND no running game
Good Qbs can overcome certain conditions and we even saw Orton move around and make plays with his feet at times .
The problem is our situation cannot be duplicated this wasnt a situation where there was one weak spot this is a situation where there were multiple weak spots and Ive yet to see any QB thrive in that type of situation.
What does converting on 3rd down or in the redzone have to do with defense?
Aaron Rodgers also had no running game after Ryan Grant got hurt.
You are still talking about wins and losses here. I’m not. I"m not blaming KO for our record just for his own inability to come up in the clutch.
Tim Tebow wears 3WM and drinks Tuscan whole milk.
by BroncoMath101 on Jul 25, 2011 5:32 PM MDT up reply actions
Yeah highlight videos tend to do that for a player.
I think he looks very good in the pocket, and he can throw on the run. Just needs some time on the bench to learn and he could be our starting QB in a coupe of years.
Warning: If you're reading this it has been censored.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
Kyle Orton = Steve DeBerg
Orton is a journeyman QB in a league that demands elite QB’s for long term success. While I can’t blame Orton for anything, it’s not like he asked to be traded here, he plays up to his abilities, but the problem is his abilities are average at best. I think we can trade him, but doubtful he is seen as anything other than a stop gap QB for a franchise looking for a franchise QB.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
I think the M.Cassel is a good example of what putting the right players around a QB can do.
I think if the Broncos had a top 15 defense and a 1,000 yard rusher we wouldn’t even be have this discussion, because the fans would have been inspired by a team effort and not a individuals efforts. If the defense is playing well it will inspired the offense and so on.
Warning: If you're reading this it has been censored.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
by CPT.Caveman on Jul 23, 2011 1:31 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
So true!
The 2009 season made it crystal clear where the Broncos needed to improve. Running the ball and stopping the run. everyone in Denver agreed on that! What did we address in the 2010 draft in the 1st round? WR and QB! Where was the team weak in 2010…running the ball and stopping the run! Kyle Orton has been turned into a scapegoat!
by rocko1 on Jul 23, 2011 1:59 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
It is what it is. lol
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
I mean that in a non disrespectful way too.
Right or wrong, this situation is what it is. MHR has a long reach, but not that long. We’re not going to change any minds before Week 1.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
Sorry but Orton had this in Chicago and got replaced.
I like Orton but this argument has got to go. He has had 1,000 yard rushers and a good defense and still got replaced. By Grossman, Griese and then shipped out for Cutler. Maybe not the best choice by Chicago, but there it is.
"The problem with quotes in internet signatures is 90% of them are made up -Ghandi"
Yeah lets take a look at all the pro-bowl WRs he played with in Chicago.........................no wait they all completely sucked.
Warning: If you're reading this it has been censored.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
He didnt get replaced by Grossman it was Grossmans job and he was stepping in . kinda like Flynn played welli n GB but the starter was Rodgers . I dont know why common sense escapes you in this matter .
kinda like the Job is Staffords in Detroit but Hill stepped in while he was injured .
I know you understand this but to keep hating youve got to keep making stuff up and twisting the facts .
If he was not replaced by Grossman, then Grossman would have been Wally Pipped.
So by your logic Brady should not have replaced Bledsoe, That was Bledsoe’s Job. Brady was just filling in. Orton Could not beat Grossman in the eyes of the coaching staff at that time. Orton was benched in favor of Grossman.
I know you understand this but to keep hating youve got to keep making stuff up and twisting the facts .
"The problem with quotes in internet signatures is 90% of them are made up -Ghandi"
Orton as a rookie
was one of the worst QBs I’ve ever seen start an NFL game… he looked like what he was – a 4th round project. There is ample statistical and “eye test” evidence of how bad Orton sucked as a rookie, where basically his only good stat was W-L record.
So the coaches were right… at the time, Grossman was probably the better QB… that doesn’t hold true today.
No it doesn't hold true today. I don't think anyone would argue that. Grossman stinks.
"The problem with quotes in internet signatures is 90% of them are made up -Ghandi"
Completely disagree!
Other than the loss to the Bengals, where KO threw 5 interceptions, his performance during the remaining 14 games wasn’t that bad. After Rex Grossman was injured late in preseason, Orton beat out Chad Hutchinson(former Cowboy QB) and was named the starter to open the season. The Bears were coming off a 5-11 season in 2004. The Bears were a running football team and really had no offensive weapons other than Thomas Jones at RB. Once the team started to win, the playcalling on offense became super conservative. Injuries to several of the WRs(like Bernard Berrian) didn’t help either. Even though KO set many passing records at Purdue under Joe Tiller, the Bears just asked him to manage the game. The Bears were successful because they had a great defense and Orton didn’t make many big rookie mistakes during the season. You are completely wrong!
Noodle arm, wilts under pressure, anti-clutch
Well, not. Thanks Rocko. I happened to watch several Bears games Orton’s rookie season and was impressed.
It’s really scary when you have a moment of temporary sanity.
Nelson DeMille
Well, this is for all that called out Tebow for leading comeback against a bad team in Houston...
It was the detroit Lions for God’s sake…5-11.
j/k…..
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Is it Free Agency yet? Wake me up when it starts!
maybe I saw the Bengals game...
I just remember hearing about how great the Bears’ rookie game manager was, and then being completely unimpressed by what I saw. What I saw was a guy with happy feet, inaccurate passes,lack of zip, and generally he didn’t look like (at the time) someone I thought had much NFL future at all… he didn’t look like an NFL QB.
His advanced stats for the season (QB rating, and in particular, his FootballOutsiders efficiency rating) are not good to horrible.
When Grossman came back in the playoffs, I was like “wow, this team could be dangerous now that they have what looks like a real NFL QB”… Grossman, for all his mental flaws, he as always looked the part throwing a pretty ball…
Now all that said, when Orton started playing really well in 2008, I thought it was a complete fluke… I kept waiting for him to crash back to earth…. and then I watched a Bears game (expecting to see the same joker as in 2005)… and he looked totally different. Injuries derailed him that year (and the past 2 years), but when healthy, I really like Orton’s game now… 2005, not so much… one highlight drive, which was really just 2 or 3 big plays against a bad Detroit team doesn’t change my evaluation.
I watched all 15 games and
if you put Orton’s play into context..one horrible game..7tds to 6 int during the remaining 14 games, with the team winning 10 of those, his performance had to be pretty good for a rookie and it was imo.
This was with a Chicago Bears team that went 5-11 the previous year. Make what you want to out of the video clip…against a bad team..backed up to the 1/2 yard line and taking it all the way to the house is pretty impressive for any QB in the NFL. To go 10-5, a QB has to do many good things during those 15 games.
his stats are in context
he was a 4th round project rookie forced to start because of injuries… he looked like it. I didn’t expect him to be any good… he didn’t disappoint me. He had a good record behind the best DEF and ST in the NFL, and a strong running game. Many 2nd string QBs could have 10-5 with that team.
That doesn’t mean that he was actually any good. 7 TDs in 15 games is NOT GOOD. 11 INTS to 7TDs is similarly poor (you can’t just leave out data… if you take out his worst game, you also have to remove his best game or you have an unbalanced sample).
Orton got better… but you’ve not supplied any evidence that makes me doubt my original conclusion that he wasn’t a very good player as a rookie.
He came from a passing college offense
run by a guru to a smashmouth typical CHI offense. I would say his production was equal to expectations, maybe slightly better, as a rookie, because of ceilings imposed by context, coaching and scheme.
Of course, what matters to us as Broncos fans was 2009 onward, the point at which he entered a passing offense again and essentialy had a breakout (and some of the context there was a feather in his cap as well, such as working with an all new receiving corp, brand new coach, the team as a whole was experiencing an overhaul…)
Have courage for the great sorrows of life and patience for the small ones; and when you have laboriously accomplished your daily task, go to sleep in peace.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jul 24, 2011 9:30 AM MDT up reply actions
Yes, I can see that based on stats how you have drawn your conclusion
I watched all 15 games and have drawn a different conclusion on his play that year. I believe I said it wasn’t bad for a rookie, and will stand by my assessment of Orton’s play in 2005. So we disagree.
"not bad for a rookie"
is different than “not bad”….
I don’t actually disagree with the “not bad for a rookie” conclusion, particularly if you consider he was a 4th round project coming from a shot-gun spread offense, who everyone expected would need a couple years to develop the footwork, etc. required from an NFL QB.
So to be clear Ortons win loss record with the bears is all him and with the Broncos it's all the defense. Got it.
"The problem with quotes in internet signatures is 90% of them are made up -Ghandi"
who said that?
I said Orton sucked as a rookie… that 2005 winning record was 100% DEF and ST… just like our losing record last year was 90% DEF and ST.
Orton couldn’t beat out Grossman, because Orton was a bad QB in 2005. By 2008 he developed and was much better, and he did beat out Grossman. I don’t see any inconsistency in may statements… what is the confusion?
We arent talking about BB we are talking about Lovie Smith and the Chicago Bears in terms of how they deal with players
Grossman had yet to play 10 career games and they were paying him a boatload of money no way would they bench the VETERAN of 3 years when healthy for the rookie Orton .
You keep saying that Orton couldnt beat out Grossman but its universally known pretty much that there was no competition for Grossmans job until 2008 and at that time he did . Before then Grossman was managements choice as the starter having invested a first and 2+ seasons in him already and he would not lose his job to injury.
Brady was not a rookie when he took over for Bledsoe but again you keep bringing up this stuff and again get proven wrong time and time again .
You proved nothing but your own bias and penchant for ignoring the truth.
Orton could not beat out Grossman. Period. If he had we wouldn’t be having this converation. Like it or not Orton lost and was benched for Grossman. Grossman beat out Orton.
Brady might as well have been a rookie when he took over for bledsoe. He had attempted 3 passes in the NFL. New England had far more invested in Bledsoe than Chicagoo had in Grossman. Bledsoe was a multiple pro-bowl QB who had already led NE to a super Bowl. He lost his job due to injury. Nothing more. If Orton was the QB you claim Chicago would have never let him go and Grossman would have never seen the playing feild again for Chicago.
Tommy Maddox lost his job in Pittsburgh the same way. It happens all the time. Wally Pipped. A better player takes his opportunity and never looks back. If Orton was the better player this would have happened. He wasn’t.
"The problem with quotes in internet signatures is 90% of them are made up -Ghandi"
by Heeler on Jul 24, 2011 11:56 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
DeBerg is a bit of a dated comparison.
To me he is more like Brian Griese or at best a Phil Simms.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
Maybe
But to me Griese was a guy that was handed the keys to a corvette and wrecked it into the trees, Simms was an over-rated guy who had one average season. DeBerg to me is a more apt comparison in that I see DeBerg and Orton as guys who are good enough to start, but are never going to be seen as franchise guys, they can have a good team and take them to the playoffs, but won’t do much of anything in the playoffs. Griese and Simms were marginal starters, who put on below average teams were truly incapable of playing.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
Don't go using your eyes and experiance to make a comparison. The Orton people HATE that.
"The problem with quotes in internet signatures is 90% of them are made up -Ghandi"
hahaha
love the Convertible comparison. lol so true…
Orton was given a pinto with a defective gas tank.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
The league is full of what IMO are Journeymen QBs
Elite QBs are hard to come by in this day and age, and if you’re lucky enough to get one you hope you have enough money to keep a good team around him. IMO the lack of good QBs coming out of college and building around him.
Warning: If you're reading this it has been censored.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
He isn't. DeBerg had HORRIBLE numbers.
Simms is a better dated comparison. At best, Orton can thrive with a top tier defense and a first class running game. Or he is Griese…throws a lot, but doesn’t score a lot.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
In fact, I think DeBerg finished with more INT than TDs....
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
Again it is not an insult.
You keep misunderstanding the comparison. He is like DeBerg in that everywhere Deberg went a new QB was brought in to replace him. 49ers Montana, Broncos Elway, Bucs Testaverde-Young, Cheifs Gannon. Kyle Orton’s path looks similar. Bears-Cutler, Broncos-Tebow. If he goes to Arizona he will be warming the seat for Skelton and so on.
Both QB’s were tall pocket passers who were/are masters at the play action pass. Deberg finally got a shot to show his ability in KC and had a few great seasons with the Cheifs.
"The problem with quotes in internet signatures is 90% of them are made up -Ghandi"
Ortons only been two places and his numbers at the same age dwarf Debergs
Changing teams does not make him Deberg …again its stupid and a insult considering hes only on his second team. If hes goes to a 3rd and then plays the rest of his years there how would he be Deberg like ?
Actually you bring up another similarity.
DeBerg was only 28 when he was with his second team. He also performed okay for us in 1983. He came in for a confused rookie, went 4-1 and led us to a wildcard birth.
Look, I am not saying this to get under your skin. I have given you this before but I will do it again if it makes you happy. Even if Orton plays the rest of his career with Denver he is still going to remind me of DeBerg. Both are pocket passers who were/are known for playing injured. Orton was more careful with the ball as far as interceptions go but DeBerg RARELY fumbled. NFL.com lists only 2 over his 21 year career. Both have good arms and are not known for their mobility. Both are/were known as great play action passers. Both are great teammates and had the support ofthe players they played with. Bill Walsh said himself that he had to move Steve DeBerg to give Montana a shot at starting as he didn’t believe Joe could beat him in camp.
It is no more an insult than the fact that my wife compares me to George Clooney. (Yeah…you bet!) I see something that reminds me of Steve DeBerg in his PLAY. I see a similar pattern in the way his career is going to play out. I see something you daon’t and obviously others do as well. It doesn’t make us stupid as you so delicately put it. It just means we have a difference in opinion. You really should learn the difference.
"The problem with quotes in internet signatures is 90% of them are made up -Ghandi"
Kyle Orton
doesn’t deserve anything more than what he’s got / will get. He’s been the starting quarterback of our team the last few years and where has that gotten us? The guy has to shoulder his part of the blame. When teams like Indy and NE win all the time, their QB’s generally end up receiving the majority of the credit. So why should it be any different when that is played out in reverse? I’m sick of seeing the situation treated as though Orton is some Joe Montana clone and if we could only fix the rest of the team we’d somehow start winning super bowls left and right with him at the helm. Wake up, people. Orton is average in every way. He also gets paid millions of dollars to do his job, rather poorly I might add.
So no, sorry. Mercy is not in the cards for Orton from this fan.
twitter: @postpunk27
And you are part of the fanbase that would eat him alive if he started Week 1. lol
Kyle Orton should be traded, its fair to him and its fair to you. :P
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
Well,
I wouldn’t eat him alive. I’d just be really confused why he was on the field in the first place. If he ends up being the guy again, I’ll support the entire team, him included, I just wouldn’t be happy about it. Fox didn’t draft Tebow, and he also isn’t going to lost his job if he coaches the team to another 4-12 record, so what does he have to lose by playing Tebow this season? If he’s good, we found our guy. If he sucks, then we’re in the running for Luck. Either way, I just don’t see Orton in the cards.
twitter: @postpunk27
Not quite the same!
Manning and Brady do a great job on very talented teams with great coaching staffs. They should get their share of the credit when they win. Would love to see just how tough and resilient both are when playing on a team that has poor coaching, a piece of swiss cheese for a OL, no running game, and one of the worst defenses in the league. You can also add in crappy special teams and the inability of the franchise to evaluate and draft good players. Throw in both having to play injured! guess what Sherlock? Both would crap out! To properly evaluate KO’s potential, need to see him on a better team. We all know, that he has one of the better arms in the league.
I for one don't "know" that Orton has one of the better arms in the league....
Middle of the pack? Sure. He’s got a decent arm. But one of the best? Put down the Ortonaid dude.
by blackhillsbronx on Jul 23, 2011 3:31 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Know the difference between better and best?
Did I say one of the best? Arm is pretty darn strong and accurate!
When his jersey is clean.
Look..I’m starting to get into this “dampen the Orton koolaid” battle again. The fact is, Orton will not succeed here. If you think he will then you are blind to the reality of the situation. 82% of the fans want him out…starting him would be a monumentally stupid. Why would ANYONE want to do that to another human being??? He can’t succeed because at least a large portion of that 82% are Tebow crazy and can’t stand Orton, just like you are Orton crazy and can’t stand Tebow. lol
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
What's wrong...Orton doesn't get his jersey dirty enough...like TT will?
Google..Bobby Douglas..I’ve been there and done that before..Tebow is another Douglas in my opinion..over hyped to death and overrated as a ONE game winner in the NFL.
you’re a big fan of EFX..so just watch and see what develops after the CBA is finalized. Fox doesn’t really know the existing players. Elway has zero experience. Xanders hasn’t exactly been a personnel wizard. the management/coaching teams with the most experience will have the upper hand. Will EFX be a deer in the headlights during the mad scramble for QBs? Orton might not be going anywhere!
Ok.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
You mean
like how the Colts won the super bowl with the 7th worst rush defense in league history? True story. Orton is still going to be Orton no matter where you put him.
twitter: @postpunk27
Colts rush D was pretty bad throughout the regular season
But it came alive during the playoffs and played much better.
It’s really scary when you have a moment of temporary sanity.
Nelson DeMille
Ummm
The Colts D was incredible against the rush in the playoffs. Throw this one out.
I'm right 97% of the time. Who cares about the other 4%?
So throw out the fact
that they played horribly all season long, yet somehow still managed to make the playoffs and win the super bowl..
Thanks for proving my point. Orton couldn’t have done that and won’t ever lead a team like that.
twitter: @postpunk27
Your point was not proven
You just want to think it was.
It’s really scary when you have a moment of temporary sanity.
Nelson DeMille
He is right.
They gave up like 35 yards in that first playoff game, but it rose steadily each game until the Super Bowl when they gave up 111 yards.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
111 still isn't close to the 180yds a game they were giving up in Week 15-17. lol
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
They played like crap on defense
all year. So Manning willed his team to victory pretty much all season long, would you agree? Sure, they upped the D in the playoffs. I’m not arguing that. I’m saying that Orton would have never even gotten his team to the playoffs for that to have happened. Orton isn’t good enough to will his team to victory.
twitter: @postpunk27
the answer is, they would not have won the Super Bowl
if the D had continued giving up that much on the ground. They stepped it up, so they became a complete team at the right time. Kind of like GB last year…they become whole just in time for the playoffs.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
Yes by beating Rex Grossman and the Bears!
Had Orton been the QB, Bears win! Grossman was terrible.
Wow! Prove that one.
"The problem with quotes in internet signatures is 90% of them are made up -Ghandi"
Um, no we don't
I doubt his arm ranks in the top 20 for arm strength. And yes, I can easily name the 20 I would put above him.
I predict improv will throw a list together
It will include Jay Cutler, who is his favorite QB. Rifle arm coupled with an IQ of grapefruit!
Those who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones, my friend.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
And you and Hoop would simply dismiss it without reading it because it would invalidate your ridiculous comment above.
There isn’t an analyst anywhere that has ever even mentioned Orton’s name when discussing the big arms of the NFL.
I love it.
The most pompous, self-absorbed poster on MHR saying he knows I’m full of it. It’s almost Shakespearean in it’s irony.
More of the Lynch-mob garbage
I actually agree that Orton is best off if we trade him, for many of the reasons Tim mentions. Many Denver fans IMO have become a total bunch of whiny nits ever since we won the SBs and Stanley Cups in the 90s, seemingly thinking that 20+ years of success like Denver had is somehow normal, or that every QB should be like Elway and take mediocre teams to the promised land. Frankly, I think they are spoiled brats, and I don’t give a rats ass if they want Mickey Mouse to start, if someone else offers a better chance to win. I personally liked it a lot better back when we were the long-time losers, but the fans were behind the team anyway… there was an energy in Mile High that transcended the team’s success on the field.
The Broncos need to do what is best for the team, and if no one offers value for Orton, he very well could stay. And then he could very easily beat out TT for the starting job and the “fans” will just have to suck it. TT will eventually get his chance, and I still think he has a better than even chance of beating out Orton for the starting job even if no one does offer value. But I’m behind whatever QB the coaches think is best for the team, and the “fans” that disagree are not real fans in my opinion.
Continued posts like this by Tim, etc. that continue to drag Orton through the grinder and stress that the so-called fans lack of confidence in him are the problem, not anything Orton has done. Frankly, this post adds nothing new to the discussion that hasn’t been said before.
by cjfarls on Jul 23, 2011 3:15 PM MDT reply actions 3 recs
you bring up many great points about the Broncos fanbase!
I’ll never forget the last game of the 2009 season against the Chiefs. McD has suspended Marshal and Scheffler, but a win puts us in the playoffs. We fell behind early in the game and by the middle of the 3rd quarter, it seemed like half the stadium was empty. If ever there was a time when the team really need the fans to pull them out of their funk, it was that game….but the fans jumped ship long before the game had been decided.
Fanhood has no place in this discussion.
I can like or dislike whomever I choose on this team and that doesn’t make me any less of a fan than you or anyone else. Calling out other fans for being less or more or whatever of a fan is the old crutch argument that people go to when they disagree with someone else’s viewpoint.
twitter: @postpunk27
by grind_core on Jul 23, 2011 3:56 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
Weak. Personal attacks win you nothing but contempt.
Lynch mob garbage?…come on man.
I know of a few whiny nits around here…
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
Oh and I am big enough to admit I have plenty of contempt towards me. Part of the territory of being overtly opinionated.
It’s also through having to defend my opinions, my thoughts, my facts, my research – every God damn thing I write is ridiculed by your small contingent. Usually with less fact and more emotion than is worth responding too…
Even when I am Pro-Orton you hate my writing. Move along buddy…no one is forcing you to read my “garbage”. ;-)
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
Are you really trying to claim
an article calling for the same thing you’ve been calling for for months, kicking Orton to the curb, is a “pro-Orton” article?
Repeated front-page articles, using your status as a MHR staff, calling for the head/job of our starting QB who had very good stats in everything but W-L, is my definition of a lynch mob in the time of the interwebs… that the primary writer of articles going down this path happens to be named Lynch is just interesting. So I guess I do have some contempt for what I perceive as heavy-handed media tactics, but not of you personally.
I actually don’t put you in the category of “whiny nits” that I mention… apologies if you self identified as so. You do tend to be more rational than many (and I acknowledge many of the points you made), and you have said you’ll suppport whoever wins the job, and I explicitly left my criticisms of this article (regurgitation of same old same old) separate from my discussion/dislike of the current whinyness of the fanbase.
Ok, I guess I overreacted.
I do that a lot. I’m not media. I am an unpaid blogger. Which means I get lots of freedom. lol
This was a pro-Orton article though – it really was. I don’t think it would be fair to him to have to face the mass of Bronco fans who will treat him as if he were a pariah. I don’t agree with it. I even think he would win the starting job if given the chance – Tebow is still raw. Exciting for sure, but raw. I just don’t think its fair to Orton…I felt moved to write about it.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
Starting with the title and that ridiculous photo that you selected..this article was a continuation
of your personal smear campaign on the MHR against Kyle Orton. Every day in Horse Tracks you only post negative Kyle Orton articles. Rarely do you include a positive article regarding Orton, and there have been many. Today is a great example…didn’t your Google search find this?
http://miamiherald.typepad.com/dolphins_in_depth/2011/07/for-the-miami-dolphins-i-would-pick-quarterback-no-1.html
You’re not fooling anyone Tim. As a Blogger at the MHR, I expect a more objective and balanced approach out of you regarding our starting QB.
by rocko1 on Jul 23, 2011 8:17 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
lol. ok.
Kyle Orton isn’t one of the search terms I use in the morning – hence all of his articles not being included.
If you want to see what I see then type these search terms every morning:
denver broncos
nfl lockout
nfl
I may expand from there depending on breaking news, but those three terms are my bread and butter. I’m sorry you think I am purposely trying to smear Kyle Orton. I’ll add Kyle Orton to the list tomorrow just to make you happy. :)
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
This whole thing is just another argument for letting the lunatics run the asylum.
Orton has said he wants to stay in Denver. Save your tender mercy for abused and starving children, and other needy people and critters. Kyle Orton is a man and doesn’t need your “mercy”, which is just a left handed rationale for getting him out of Tebow’s way because Tebow can’t move him out of the way.
It’s really scary when you have a moment of temporary sanity.
Nelson DeMille
"Tebow can’t move him out of the way."
I guess we’re gonna find out. Either way, I’m just ready for the season to get here. This topic won’t go away until it does.
twitter: @postpunk27
If the three QB's
are given an honest chance to compete this year I believe that TT will earn the starting job flat out!
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 23, 2011 4:08 PM MDT up reply actions
This is my guess too
but I’m not so sure of it, or so tied to the idea that I have to make every post of mine about how Orton has to go.
I do it just to piss you off.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
I disagree.
But I’m always down for a good freak show. Week 1 would be just that if Orton is starting. I’m not saying I’d be proud of the fanbase for doing what I think they would do – rather ashamed actually – but it doesn’t change what I think would happen.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
To avoid the "freak show"
Get rid of Tebow. His cap hit is $800,000 more than Ortons (according to Jeremy) and we could get as much for him in a trade as we can for Orton. Problem solved.
And if you don’t think EF&X have been considering that, as well as considering trading Orton and DJ and just about everyone else on the team, I have this great bridge in Brookly that I can sell you cheap.
It’s really scary when you have a moment of temporary sanity.
Nelson DeMille
Tebow has guaranteed money this year
as well as his 2012 and 2013 salaries. All told, cutting or trading him would have a cash cost of $6.23mil, and around $600,000 in accelerated bonus cap number. His cap savings if he was removed would be approx $9.1mil to Kyle’s $8.87mil, or about $300,000 dollar difference.
The $800,000 is the difference in cap footprint with both of them on the roster.
Have courage for the great sorrows of life and patience for the small ones; and when you have laboriously accomplished your daily task, go to sleep in peace.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jul 23, 2011 6:20 PM MDT up reply actions
Having Orton move on to a place like AZ
Would be awesome for his career and it would allow us to see if we really have a star in Tebow. Oh and we’ll get either a nice player or two or a nice draft pick or 2 for a guy who is gone in 2012 anyway! Tim’s right the fan base will be merciless toward Orton, in fact we’ll probably see quite a few times in the season they turn on Tebow, just like they did Elway.
I'm right 97% of the time. Who cares about the other 4%?
It would be kind of fitting in a way,
If he went to Arizona. We got Plummer from them way back when, so now we’re returning the favor. And if we know Orton can do one thing, it’s get the ball to his best receiver. Ask Brandon Marshall.
twitter: @postpunk27
A point of curiosity: "Orton folds when there is competition for his position"
I’m really curious where this perception is coming from — I’ve seen it stated a number of times, in various ways in the comments.
Now don’t get me wrong, I agree with Tim that the best thing for Orton would be to be traded since he’ll never get a fair shake from the majority of the Broncos’ fans. But this often repeated perception of him not holding up under competition for his position has me puzzled.
In talking with the PR people from the Bears via email, I got this picture of Orton:
He was drafted in the 4th round by the Bears, who had a 1st round pick as a starter in Grossman. He was expected to be given 3-4 years to develop. An injury to Grossman & other circumstances led to his starting 15 games his rookie year. He compiled a 10-5 record by doing exactly what the coaches asked. He was replaced by Grossman when Grossman was cleared to play.
In his 2nd year, Grossman was slated to start and the general manager of the Bears wanted a veteran backup and so brought in Brian Griese. Grossman and Griese played well enough to keep Orton on the bench. This same situation continued during Orton’s 3rd year until injuries sidelined both Grossman and Griese. Orton started 3 games and went 2-1.
In his fourth year, competing against first round pick Grossman, Orton won the starting position. He went 9-6 — and would have gone 10-5 had the Bears defense (following a go-ahead TD pass by Orton) not allowed the Falcons to march into range and kick a winning FG during the last 11 seconds of the game.
Then in Denver, Orton won the starting position twice, going 8-7 his first time, and 3-10 his second.
Overall, I’m not sure where the “he wilts under competition” perception is coming from.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Jul 23, 2011 4:30 PM MDT reply actions 8 recs
I agree, Orton has alwasy welcomed competition and has even said so repeatedly.
This last year was the first time I ever heard him say he thought he earned the job and expected to be the starter.
Tim Tebow wears 3WM and drinks Tuscan whole milk.
by BroncoMath101 on Jul 23, 2011 4:35 PM MDT up reply actions
I shared my opinion.
Feel free to disagree with it. I don’t think Orton can succeed with a strong QB pushing him from the bench. I don’t think. I didn’t say I know for a fact.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
I wasn't criticizing you, Tim
I’ve seen that perception stated a number of times by various people and I was just curious where it was coming from. That’s all.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Jul 23, 2011 6:21 PM MDT up reply actions
It's cool.
I just wanted to make it clear that once again I was sharing my opinion. I don’t really care what GM’s have to say why they do things because they invariably lie through their teeth to the public. ;-) I look at the situation, examine results and tell people what I think. I am a perfect blogger. lol
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
There you go...fair assessment.
Being interested is seeing Tebow start/develop is different than thinking KO has major flaws.
I have enjoyed having Orton here. I was glad when we got him in the trade and I think he is a classy guy.
I think he did a good job for us but in year 2 I was hoping for more than just a lot of yards since we had that with Jay and it didn’t really get us anywhere.
I’m not even blaming him for our record because having the worst D in the league will not get you to the playoffs.
I was looking for some excitement though and execution when it counted and I didn’t get what I wanted. Way too many 3 and outs. Way too many opportunities lost. 3rd down, 4th down, redzone performance. Orton had opportunities to deliver and he didn’t deliver. I blame the coaching a lot but I expect my franchise QB to keep us in the game on those kinds of plays, to make plays when we need them. I was disappointed a lot last year and while I like Orton, I have seen the potential in Tebow to be that kind of QB that I am looking for. He plays with passion, excitement and has shown he might be able to be clutch when the pressure is on. I want to see if he can deliver it over a full season.
I know I’m not the only one.
Tim Tebow wears 3WM and drinks Tuscan whole milk.
by BroncoMath101 on Jul 23, 2011 4:33 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
actually, Orton's RZ performance was pretty good in '10.
His third down % wasn’t good, but he also had in ‘09 the longest yards-to-go of any QB in the NFL, and I’m guessing ’10 was similarly bad.
I think his 4th down performance stats were also above average.
So you can be disappointed in the lack of results… but keep in mind that Orton was actually better than most NFL QBs in many of the areas you mention (you want 100% results, and that isn’t realistic), or there are some strong mitigating factors in those areas where his stats did suck.
TT may be better than Orton… but the data to a large part doesn’t support Orton being poor at anything but your 3rd down claim, and that has a pretty strong confouding factor.
"confounding factor"
if that doesn’t describe the situation with orton, nothing does.
I agree with one point in Tim’s post, otherwise I am pretty much in agreement with the antithesis around here: it is a miasma around here regarding Orton. In a lot of ways I see the now-standard argument for Tebow (We just want to see what he is capable of) as being able to applied to Orton as well. We aren’t talking about factors that every QB in the league deals with, we are talking about the worst factors in the league that any QB had to deal with.
In the context of the season Orton had one elite tool, the receivers on the whole (individually there were issues, but on the whole, watch out), and he produced with that tool as well as can be done, which is getting big chunks of yardage int he passing game. But football as strategy dictates that you can’t win games with a single dimension. Poor 3rd downs? Where was the running game on 1st and 2nd, or the TEs capable of threatening the seam or inside shoulders of the linebackers?
I agree with most, in that I think we’ve seen what Orton can do for a team, but I’ll take it a step back: we really don’t know what a team can do for Kyle, specifically the new team that is being built right now here in Denver under a defensive minded head coach who is retaining many of the offensive concepts that helped Kyle break out as a passer in the NFL, with an expectation of a much more cohesive OL and higher quality RB stable.
Two other issues that I see differently from most I’ll mention quickly:
1)If we don’t trade Orton we won’t get anything for him. We can always extend him, if he is successful, and if he can’t beat out Tebow, see point 2.
2)He is too expensive to retain relative to the expense of retaining Tebow. QB is a trump position, as in, whatever you think about regular NFL economics, or positional importance, or draft ranking or whatever, the QB position trumps that. It is too important. So mark me down as someone who doesn’t particularly care what we have invested in any one QB contract as long as we meet the criteria of being invested at the position as a whole. i don’t care, and I doubt john Elway does either, how much we spend on Orton vs. Tebow as long as we are solidly invested in finding elite production at the position. That is also why I don’t care whether we leverage Orton into something more valuable. If we do, great, but if we don’t I’ll take it to mean that EFX is unconvinced about where they can get production from, and want to find out from firsthand experience, and I can’t fault them for that. In the long view, one draft pick doesn’t offset the need to invest at the QB position.
In that light, I have decided I am solidly for a QB competition in 2011. I think it is the best thing for the team, both now and going forward, and dangling a 2nd round pick (at best) in front of me simply isn’t enough to change my mind. It is ok to be invested at the position, so lets get some information we can hang our hats on before making a decision….
Have courage for the great sorrows of life and patience for the small ones; and when you have laboriously accomplished your daily task, go to sleep in peace.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jul 24, 2011 9:19 AM MDT up reply actions 6 recs
good post JB - rec'd
I think I’ve seen enough from Tebow that I’m willing to risk losing Orton for a 2nd rounder… but I have no problem with a QB competition, and I see no downside in keeping him if we can’t get a good return on the trade.
Eitherway, either on our team competing for the QB spot or as trade material, Orton will provide good value for my favorite team. I see no reason to worry or complain about anything but selling him for pennies on the dollar.
A trade is best for Orton for many of the reasons Tim pointed out… but a trade for low value is not the best for the Denver Broncos, and thats all I care about in the end, even though I like Orton.
I gave you rec 5 Jeremy
I see your points but for me there is one point of value that I don’t think is being discused. If KO starts even with some improvements from TT then I feel the value in we get from KO (even if we lose him to FA in 2012) is that he will give TT one more year to work on mechanics etc. I also see it as a plus for TT in that EFX has confidence that TT is the future of the Broncos. The are willing to give up value for development of TT. I guess maybe another way to phrase it is If we go 3-13 or even 4-12 with TT we would then be looking at a very high pick in the ’12 draft. If we go 7-9 or 8-8 with Orton then we have a pick in the 10-15 range. That alone will speak about confidence in TT for the future.
With alot of people saying we need to see what TT can do they just may end up losing him to a high draft pick QB in ’12. If they stay with KO then they want TT for the future and he will do much better in ’12 than he would in ’11.
I doubt that KO stays past ‘11 as there will be a lot of fans the will take pleasure in booing him and he won’t want to stay here past this year.
by papasteven on Jul 24, 2011 3:31 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think Elway agrees with you papa
He spoke before last season about how detrimental it can be to a young QB’s development to start too soon, and indicated that Tebow had it good, waiting behind a quality starter in Orton. We know Elway speaks from experience on the issue because he faced a similar situation with Deberg, except that DeBerg really wasn’t a quality starter… and even at that Elway got benched 3 times!
The difficulty of that year began the strain of the relationship Elway had with reeves, and led to a lot of discontent that never cleared up. Reeves addition of Shanny to the staff (and Gibbs…lord we can’t forget Gibbs) stemmed from that discontent and trying to find a way to make it work. Which of course spelled the end of Reeves over the long haul.
Elway understands that his story is rare and poignant, and not likely to repeat. I believe, especially with the position he has been brought to currently (franchise savior?) that Elway will have a conservative mindset about the QB position. Whatever choices he makes here will outlast the careers of whichever QB he rolls with, that is for sure…
Have courage for the great sorrows of life and patience for the small ones; and when you have laboriously accomplished your daily task, go to sleep in peace.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jul 24, 2011 4:16 PM MDT up reply actions
I agree the Elway history
My point really is there is value in Orton staying for one more year and it really does speak of confidence in Tebow being the future. Sure we lose any draft picks etc. but I think that will outweigh rushing Tebow and potentially having EFX draft a QB next year in the first round. If that happens say goodbye to Tebow. I wasn’t wild about the draft pick and As Elway has said Tebow is very raw. Yes he has probably worked real hard to correct or develop his tools but I think the potential to revert to what his reflexes has been trained to do in college still outweigh what he has learned so far this off season. One more year and I think he will be set and then we will know that we have a gem.
and I agree completely about
how hanging onto Orton can readily be seen as confidence in Tebow. Extremely nuanced but I think accurate point!
Have courage for the great sorrows of life and patience for the small ones; and when you have laboriously accomplished your daily task, go to sleep in peace.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jul 24, 2011 6:43 PM MDT up reply actions
If Orton stays..he's better than Tebow and will start.
the Broncos lose a draft pick and spend $8 mil. Plus, if EFX does their job, the team is much better. Let’s say for discussion purposes, we win 9/10 games. then what guys? Bowlen wouldn’t ante up for more KO, and Tebow is still an unknown. Imo, ownership has backed themselves into a corner and the rest of the league knows it. They are pregnant with TT.
Ownership? more like the previous regime
Pregnant with TT? Lucky us. I do believe you are right, if KO is n’t traded, he starts. For discussion purposes, if hes traded who says we dont win 9 or 10 games?
this is a broken record and wont be thrown away until one of them is off the team…….
He will start, Tebow will beat him out....during the season, and then KO's value is crap.
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Is it Free Agency yet? Wake me up when it starts!
Well, past history would say YES but I really do trust the new era....but man, always have that nagging doubt!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Is it Free Agency yet? Wake me up when it starts!
I don't think an Orton win in TC is a given
Which I suppose is why I want to see it play out, cause I don’t know who EFX will think is better or why they will think that.
They could resign orton to an extension and still trade him down the line.
I guess what i wonder is if EFX feels the pressure to move Orton the way that a lot of us do….?
Money: maybe not, I’ve pointed out that total investment at the position is probably more important to EFX than any single contract there.
Holding Tebow back: papasteven makes a good point that developing Tebow for another year behind Orton doesn’t necessarily hurt him, and in fact could indicate confidence in him.
Loss of a draft pick: number one, a draft pick is a small price to pay for surety at the most important position in the game, number two, not getting the extra pick in 2012 doesn’t mean that we will never get it…
Timeline for retaining rights to Orton: Orton could be extended by us and traded on that deal, essentially pushing the decision that we have now out another year. I know that could make heads explode, but from EFX’s point of view they will have more information if they want it.
Have courage for the great sorrows of life and patience for the small ones; and when you have laboriously accomplished your daily task, go to sleep in peace.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jul 24, 2011 7:25 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
And if Tebow wins job fair and square in camp...Orton's value moves from a 2nd to a 5th....thats a great way of maximizing his value...
….and if Orton wins out, does not increase his value as he was expected to anyway. Please someone tell me how this is good in anyway what so ever????
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Is it Free Agency yet? Wake me up when it starts!
Is it really that important to get anything for Orton if he doesn't start?
The team just got rid of Justin Bannan and Jamal Williams because they didn’t want to pay their salary. Why should Kyle be any different?
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
Follow me on Twitter @MHR_KaptainKirk
Yeah, because at the moment he is considered starter...if he is beaten out by anyone that value drops....
Do you really think he will be here next season? Its best for the team and for Orton.
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Is it Free Agency yet? Wake me up when it starts!
I would rather we get something for him.
A team that is rebuilding needs as many Draft picks as possible. The draft is a crapshoot, but it’s place to start. I don’t think we get a DT for Orton. Could be wrong though.
"The problem with quotes in internet signatures is 90% of them are made up -Ghandi"
All very logical Jeremy, but imo Bowlen is in the damage control mode with the fans.
Trading away Kyle Orton gives ownership a convenient way to kick the can down the road, save some $$, get an additional draft choice, and make the fans happy. I believe Bowlen had an OMG moment during the 2nd half of game #16 in 2009.
no argument there
cutting ties has values in certain cases, no doubt about that…
Have courage for the great sorrows of life and patience for the small ones; and when you have laboriously accomplished your daily task, go to sleep in peace.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jul 24, 2011 10:08 PM MDT up reply actions
There’s a full blown fire in this thread….
Probably best I stay away.
Just gonna say this one final time:
I don’t believe Orton is the long term solution. I think we would be best served trading him for 2-3 round value and seeing what we have in Tebow. That is all.
Follow me on Twitter: ballinnickcast
Xbox360 gamertag: SnipeMeHarder
"They said I couldn't be a high school quarterback, they said I couldn't get a D1 scholarship. You're not good enough, you're not skilled enough. They said I couldn't win a heisman. They said I couldn't win a national championship. They said I wouldn't be a first round draft pick. They said I couldn't play in the league. Appreciate that." - Tim Tebow.
by Nick Cast on Jul 23, 2011 4:53 PM MDT reply actions 2 recs
Can't assess Tebow
with him sitting on the bench.
Last year Fox started everybody (including one from the street) at QB. Worse yet he cycled them from week to week. This is no way to assess Tebow, he needs ALL the first team reps and ALL the starts. Trade Orton and just say no to Delhomme.
why not?
How is TT different than the hundreds of other QBs that get evaluated in practice and preseason?
I just don’t buy the “TT is special” argument… I could say Graham Harrell is special… but where is the evidence? It is just a claim that has (and can’t have) any objective analysis, so is the equivelent of basically saying “my opinion is better than yours… suck it”.
TT has had a lot of success on the field… I’m sure he’s similarly had lots of success in practice too. None of that differentiates him from a bazillion other QBs that have totally sucked at the NFL level.
by cjfarls on Jul 24, 2011 8:51 AM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
I agree
but what if we can only get 5th round value?
Than it's a 5th round pick we didn't have before. TD was a 6th round pick.
"The problem with quotes in internet signatures is 90% of them are made up -Ghandi"
and this is where we disagree
I think a great backup QB/good (not great) starter as a hedge against TT failing or getting injured is worth way more than that.
If TT gets creamed and blows out a knee in week 2, I’m not super keen on a year of BQ as QB.
In a year, the luster could possibly be fully worn off the TT shield… at that point we may be thinking very differently about Orton’s value than now. For a 2nd or 3rd/5th I’m willing to forgo that opportunity cost and take our chances this year… but not for the pennies you’d apparently be happy with.
Not sure Orton is any better than BQ as I have not seen BQ in action very much.
But are you saying you wouldn’t take a pick such as TD? He was a fluke at a 6th round? Brady was a 6th round pick, Shannon Sharpe was a 7th Round Pick. The Albino Rhino was a 12th rouund pick. Peyton Hillis was a 7th round pick. Would you take a trade of Orton for Hillis?
Let’s look at it the other way. Tebow starts all 16. We pay Orton 8 mil and get nothing for him as he walks away in FA.Best to take value now.
"The problem with quotes in internet signatures is 90% of them are made up -Ghandi"
name the other 31 picks in the round each of those players was taken
…that is the likely value, not the exception. Picking the few exceptions doesn’t prove the rule.
The whole point of insurance/hedging risk is to hope you don’t have to use it. Just because you don’t think your house will burn down doesn’t mean you go without homeowners insurance. Losing Orton after a year and TT excelling is the ideal scenario… I, just like you, hope that is what happens. But it doesn’t mean it will, and it doesn’t mean keeping Orton would be a bad decision compared to adding a 5th rounder.
TT is far from a sure thing, and even if he was Peyton Manning, the injury rate in the NFL means there is a strong risk a team will need to have a Plan B…. doesn’t mean you spend $8mill on a backup if you have Peyton, but TT is significantly riskier, so the value of a hedge/insurance is much greater.
it won’t be 5th round value. I guarantee you that.
At the very absolute worst, I think we will get a 3rd rounder.
I would think we have already gotten a couple of preliminary 3rd round offers, but that’s just total speculation on my part. However, common sense would dictate that any team that wanted Orton as its starter would already have let Denver know.
Denver may try to wait out for a 2nd. We’ll see, but I can promise you we are getting more then a 4-5 round pick.
As to the question of would I trade Orton for a 5th rounder. No I would not. I probably wouldn’t do it for a 4th.
We would likely get a 4th as a compensatory pick if we let him walk. We get at least a 3rd or no deal.
Follow me on Twitter: ballinnickcast
Xbox360 gamertag: SnipeMeHarder
"They said I couldn't be a high school quarterback, they said I couldn't get a D1 scholarship. You're not good enough, you're not skilled enough. They said I couldn't win a heisman. They said I couldn't win a national championship. They said I wouldn't be a first round draft pick. They said I couldn't play in the league. Appreciate that." - Tim Tebow.
I tend to agree
a 3rd by itself would be a really tough call for me if I was GM… I’d probably ask for an additional 5th (maybe tied to a performance metric) to sweeten the pot and cut that deal…
But all that is speculation. Until FA opens up, we have no idea what his value is, and we won’t until the deal is cut.
If we can get a 2nd for Orton, there are a ton of reasons to roll the dice on TT and say goodbye. But I don’t know what folks are offering, and I’m generally pretty happy with Orton’s performance the past 2 years (12th in DVOA efficiency each year, even including injuries), so I’m not gonna just toss him for a risky young player just because a bunch of armchair QBs think its the thing to do.
I have only one thing to say to Tim Lynch!
You need to pick a topic next time that will get some response!!! I don’t think that anyone has any interest in who plays QB for our beloved Broncos!
You would have gotten far more comments on an article about the Kickers that we may be able to bring in here to compete!
J/K? ;-))
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 23, 2011 5:48 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Only because its me.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
lol
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 23, 2011 6:21 PM MDT up reply actions
Kyle wants to be traded.
For all you Orton fanbois out there, if you want what is best for Kyle, you want him to be traded. Kyle deserves the security of a new contract and if he is dealt, he’ll get one.
Kyle won’t get a new deal in Denver this year. He’ll be learning a new system yet again, one the is more focused on the running game and he’s on a team that was pathetic last year.
If he stays in Denver, 2011 likely won’t be as good for him as 2010 (in terms of his passing stats). My guess, Kyle hopes he gets traded to a team like Miami or Washington. My guess is he wants out of Denver more than his fanbois want him to stay.
He’ll want a new contract and the clear path to a starters job. He’d have that in Arizona or Washington. He’d win it in Miami or Minnesota.
The Lockout bores me.
by McGeorge on Jul 23, 2011 6:21 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
We agree.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
I’ll attack this from a better perspective. I’m not looking at it from what is best for Denver. I’m looking at it as what is best for Orton… What is best for Orton is a trade to a team where he’d be the undisputed starter.
That should give the Orton fanbois a headache since it’s hard to argue I’m being unfair to Orton. Hell, I’m looking out for Orton’s very best interests, not he Broncos.
The Lockout bores me.
That's what I tried to freaking say in my post.
I guess my name was enough to send people into hissy fits over n-o-t-h-i-n-g.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
No Joke!
I got that but can’t figure out why so many missed it!
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 23, 2011 6:36 PM MDT up reply actions
The Orton topic is enough to send some on this site over the top.
Myself included at times. I make no bones that I think Orton is average and should shoulder a good piece of the record he has ammassed in Denver. That being said I don’t think he is the worst QB I have seen either. I thought you were overwhelmingly fair and open minded in your post.
But there are some on this site that feel he is the second coming and there is no changing their mind. Fair comparisons and stats are thrown out as well as logic.
"The problem with quotes in internet signatures is 90% of them are made up -Ghandi"
I’m with U Heeler, give him whats due, and lets just all move on!
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 23, 2011 10:49 PM MDT up reply actions
Hell I'm a rival fan and i like Orton, but IMO tebow should start, not because of what he can do for the team now but, what he and the team can do in the next 2 or 3 years.
Warning: If you're reading this it has been censored.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
by CPT.Caveman on Jul 23, 2011 10:05 PM MDT up reply actions
+ 100
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 24, 2011 12:36 AM MDT up reply actions
I agree too....
but if we don’t get offered value, tough luck for him.
I like Orton… if what is best for him is also best for the team (I think your estimate of ~a 3rd & 5th is about right), I’m all aboard. But if not, tough.
After reading how good Orton really is
I am expecting a 1st on the trade with a couple of pro bowl DT’s. Why is he still with us and not grabbed up before the lock out?
I am sure we will be getting our 1st rd trade completed in the next few days and then all will be well for both parties.
come on football… this horse has been dead a long time…..
Well then we should see his value as soon as the new agreement
is made and I really hope other teams see Orton value as your eyes do. We can sure use a 1st or 2nd pick.
I am not a hater just ready to move on.
You can’t read how good Orton is. You have to use your eyes.
Watch Orton in the red zone, watch him on 3rd down, watch him a 4th down, what him in the 4th quarter.
Orton does some of the things a top QB is supposed too (limits INTs, decent accuracy, great ball fakes, can make all the throws, nice awareness), but he doesn’t do some of the things that separates the average starting QBs from the guys worthy of a 1st round pick.
Orton is decent, but he isn’t great. You gotta be great to land a 1st rounder or you have to find a dumb team like Chicago to give you more than they should.
The Lockout bores me.
The problem with using your eyes is that they see what you want them to see . Thats why I use both my eyes and the numbers
What they tell me is that when you talk about situational stats which you and quite a few other people always do . You have to look at the amount of weapons that opposing qbs have that allows them to excel in those situations .
I just dont subscribe to the theory that Orton fails in the worse possible situation so he would describe in the best possible situations as well.
As Ive said before most teams go through hell and highwater to keep there Qbs out of the situation that Orton was in last year but not us in mile high we say so what deal with it we will just search for that 3 horned qb unicorn that overcomes these obstacles all by themselves .
My question is how many years will it takes before the fanbase snaps out of that illusion 12-13 seasons ?
by Hoopforia on Jul 23, 2011 8:58 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Right on! The experts over at WCG used the "eye test"!
Look at what that got them! CUTLER!
3 years ago Cutler was beloved by us...
the reason he isn’t is because he bailed on this sinking ship. I’m kind of losing my disdain for him now…who can blame him for wanting out?
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
I'm not with ya on this one Tim!
Read “no joke brother” below! Jay simply needs to grow up!
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 23, 2011 10:43 PM MDT up reply actions
It was never talent that got Cutler in trouble with the fanbase it was his attitude. Cutler passed the eye test based on talent and potential.
He did some great things with the ball. His ego, attitude and immaturity are keeping him from being as good as he probably could be.
Tim Tebow wears 3WM and drinks Tuscan whole milk.
by BroncoMath101 on Jul 23, 2011 10:35 PM MDT up reply actions
No joke Brother
I live in Nashville TN and he was a great college QB for Vandy, a small college here that always sucked, but I was Thrilled that Denver got him until I watched the pout’y mouthed baby throw temper tantrums!
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 23, 2011 10:39 PM MDT up reply actions
agree
Cutler is a very talented QB and will win a lot of games for the Bears… he’s just a douchebag.
LMAO
Watching him beat UT and other constant Heavy Hitters in the SEC during his senior year was fun though! I never got any negative feed on him until he entered the NFL where the media RULES!
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 23, 2011 11:54 PM MDT up reply actions
Sorry McGeorge
that was my sarcasm. Just getting tired of hearing all the rant about Orton, good and bad.
If they trade him good. If not then I will suck it up and grunt through another year and hope he is all that the very few believe he is.
I know he is a good guy and all of that but I don’t ever remember anyone ranting about how we should go after Orton if we lose Cutler.
And when we did get Orton as a throw in with our draft picks I still don’t remember reading anything about how great of a QB we were getting.
I am not going to dog on him I am just ready for us to go in a new direction. It will be good for Orton and us as a team and fan base.
Lets just get it done already. That way we can find something else to talk about as if it really matters on what we think and say…..
I'm just seriously wanting to get on with the future starting now.
That means starting Tim day one and giving Kyle a chance to shine somewhere else.
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
Orton deserves more respect than he's gotten.
In two years with Denver, Kyle has had some very good stats.
QB rating of 87. John Elway’s career rating was 79.9.
41 TDs to 21 INTs. That would project to 328 TDs and 168 INTs over 16 years. Elway had 300 TDs and 226 INTs during his 16 seasons.
He threw for 7455 yards and a 60% completion rate. Project that out over 16 seasons and the comp. rate stays the same with 59340 passing yards. Elway had a career completion percentage of 56.9 with 51475 passing yards.
Trust me. I’m in NO WAY suggesting that Orton is a better quarterback than Elway. I’m just trying to point out that Kyle hasn’t been anywhere near as horrible in Denver as some would suggest.
His 11-17 win – loss record would project out to 88-136 compared to John’s 148-82-1………not comparable.
Kyle put up those passing stats with a running game that ranked 18th in 2009 and 26th in 2010. His defense was ranked 7th in 2009, but dead last, at 32nd, in 2010.
Having said all that, the fan base is crying out for Tebow, and if staff thinks he’s even close to being ready to start he needs to be “The Man”. Orton isn’t a long term solution to the position, and those in the know have said that Quinn is capable. Tebow was exciting in the four games he played last season, and he showed a serious will to win that rubbed off on everyone around him. Even I’m anxious to see what he can do when the team is his. Let’s see if he can be another franchise quarterback, or not.
Give Orton the opportunity to go somewhere where he’ll be appreciated, and let’s get this Tebow experiment started.
by BroncoFan_17 on Jul 23, 2011 6:46 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Give Orton the chance to go somewhere else where he’ll make more money on a longer term contract.. Even Hoopforia, his #1 fanboi, can’t argue with that.
The Lockout bores me.
I do not believe your perception of
your fellow MRH members is fair or accurate. You seem to me to focus on those that express what you have referred to, and then assign it to anybody that expresses an interest in seeing what can happen with Tebow.
I’m not sure that hoop is sober at this point…lol
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 23, 2011 11:24 PM MDT up reply actions
He's having a problem with punctuation!
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 23, 2011 11:26 PM MDT up reply actions
not really because no one is simply saying lets see what Tim can do anymore
Everything now is Tim is great because orton sucks insert whatever you want
when because they are both broncos you shouldnt have to rip down one player on the team, to say good things about the other .
You are right. You are not an Orton fanboi. I’m starting to think you don’t even like Kyle. Because if you wanted what was best for Orton, you’d want him traded to a team that will name him the starter and sign him to a contract extension.
I’m just pointing out your “look at Hoopforia” routine. You plug Orton to no end with no shame, but you don’t even care about Orton, you just want to “be different”. So congrats, but know that a lot of us see thru your shenanigans.
The Lockout bores me.
QB
We are a rebuilding team so if you can get a 2nd or 3rd rounder for a QB in the last year of his contract that pays 9 million, give or take, you have to do it. It’s nothing personal against Kyle, it’s just smart business. I would love for them to compete in camp but in football you don’t have the luxury. In other sports you have the luxury of waiting until the last moment to trade someone but for a QB who has to study a playbook, it’s not realistic. Football is a TEAM game, there were several factors as to why we were 4-12, not just Orton, not just the defense, one player does not make you a playoff team. Quarterbacks get too much credit when the team wins and too much of the blame when the team loses and it makes me sick!! For example, Marino is one of the greatest Qb’s ever but a lot of the time gets overlooked in that regard because he doesn’t have a ring, whereas people talk about Big Ben being a sure fire hall of famer because he has two rings in 7-8 years? Look at the dolphins and steelers and you tell me who had the better supporting cast? Pretty much what I’m getting at is that if the whole team doesn’t improve( run O, run D, special teams, pass rush etc.) then it doesnt matter who the Qb is. As for my opinion, nothing against Orton, but in this situation Tebow has to start and we have to get something for Orton, again its nothing personal against Orton because I think he us a good Qb.
Here's to Tebow being the starter in 2011!
Heck Payton Manning would have struggled on our team last year...
by bfree2bronc on Jul 23, 2011 11:44 PM MDT up reply actions
LMAO
not likely! He would have said Fthat and gone to the hospital to have neck surgery in the middle of the season!
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 23, 2011 11:47 PM MDT up reply actions
Yes, you are right...
because Manning was hurting and needed neck surgery. ;-)
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
Brian Grease
I had a good friend when Grease was playing that was always pissed off because he loved Grease, so we all had to be carefull what we said or he would go ballistic defending Grease till you couldn’t take no more. Then one day he said “Grease Sucks” and it was all over. I don’t care if Kyle or Tebow starts let the best man win. But I prefer defense anyway so I’ve been fn miserable for awhile. Opinions are just that. My wife and I disagree all the time and we been maried 20 years
Brian Griese had a bright future...But he was injury/accident prone for most of his career. He's got a ring as a 3rd string backup though...
That counts don’t it?
by bfree2bronc on Jul 23, 2011 11:42 PM MDT up reply actions
NOP!
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 23, 2011 11:43 PM MDT up reply actions
He also was a 2 time Pro-bowler.
"The problem with quotes in internet signatures is 90% of them are made up -Ghandi"
LMAO
Perhaps no one will understand the comparison!
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 23, 2011 11:28 PM MDT up reply actions
One thing I gotta say
Before reading through all these comments (Dang ’o!!!)
Post edit recommendation
“I think this comes from how he was treated in Chicago.”
You gotta admit… Should read
“I think some of this comes from how he was treated in Chicago.”
Anyway, bottom line – Kyle deserves way more mercy than he’s given. McDaniels wasn’t wrong to give him the contract extension he did, anyone who can pay attention to the often P. Manning-like pre-snap observations that Kyle is capable of alone, can see the mental part that KO has down. His worst trait, literally, is his oft lack of awareness to run when all else fails (or the fact that he’s playing hurt and can’t run worth a damn).
A pessimist sees the difficulties in every opportunity.
An optimist sees the opportunities in every difficulty.
- Winston Churchill
First (and only, in our lifetimes) team to three consecutive SB wins (perhaps and then some)!!!! ( =
by PearlJamBroncoGFunk on Jul 24, 2011 12:18 AM MDT reply actions
He just never considers running! It never crossed his mind, well, unless he checks with me first! (read my statement above about the fact that I know EVERYTHING that Kyle thinks!)
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 24, 2011 12:42 AM MDT up reply actions
Orton ran the ball 22 times in 13 games in 2010
Gained 98 yards (4.4 average).
It’s really scary when you have a moment of temporary sanity.
Nelson DeMille
I think the key word everyone is missing from that sentence is
I THINK—-
I was just sharing my opinion…I could be wrong. ;)
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
It's funny how
The post has 104 comments per Rec.
(Rec’d by the way, LOLOTI)
A pessimist sees the difficulties in every opportunity.
An optimist sees the opportunities in every difficulty.
- Winston Churchill
First (and only, in our lifetimes) team to three consecutive SB wins (perhaps and then some)!!!! ( =
by PearlJamBroncoGFunk on Jul 24, 2011 12:42 AM MDT reply actions
The shear # of responses to the post is Rec'd enough, don'tcha think?
J/K,,,I would NOT recommend this post for the simple reason that Tim Lynch’s head might explode! Then we have to pick up all of the pieces, just like we have had to with this last years debacle of what could have been a great year, except that IT all imploded on us!
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 24, 2011 12:52 AM MDT up reply actions
LOLOTI
Mystified what this stands for laugh out loud ???
by Baghdad on Jul 24, 2011 12:51 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
(Laughing Out Lout On The Inside)
A pessimist sees the difficulties in every opportunity.
An optimist sees the opportunities in every difficulty.
- Winston Churchill
First (and only, in our lifetimes) team to three consecutive SB wins (perhaps and then some)!!!! ( =
by PearlJamBroncoGFunk on Jul 24, 2011 11:37 AM MDT up reply actions
Hmmmm....
The fact is, the Bears and now the Broncos have destroyed Orton’s confidence. He needs to go. He needs to go somewhere that players and coaches believe in him and trust him. A place where he won’t have to constantly look over his shoulder at the next “young gun” vying for his spot.
Yeesh… This sounds a little bleak… I’ve got destinations pinned down to Canadian football and perhaps Spokane’s Arena football franchise. All kidding aside, you make a sound case. When a qb becomes damaged goods, it’s time to let them go. Heck, even Jake Plummer came apart at the seams with someone (not naming names) breathing down his neck for his job.
J
Each tweet hand dipped in awesome sauce!
Twitter: @jezru
And my opinion there is probably swayed alot by what we all saw with Plummer.
Which probably isn’t fair to Orton. So I could be wrong…
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
Tim is always wrong! lol
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
by metalman5050 on Jul 24, 2011 2:22 PM MDT up reply actions
I'm not arrogant enough to always claim to be right at least...
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft strategy. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
Except for a short forray into validity of stats
the entire thread has been on-topic as well… rare. Just goes to show that no matter how much the idea is rehashed, the eventual outcome is very important to us. The eventual “Decision” will speak volumes about our new front office.
Have courage for the great sorrows of life and patience for the small ones; and when you have laboriously accomplished your daily task, go to sleep in peace.
by Jeremy Bolander on Jul 24, 2011 7:29 PM MDT up reply actions
Next three weeks are critical...can EFX walk the walk?
I sure hope they are up to the challenge!
Stats
One day I discovered I could google anything and there it was. That don’t make me a genius. I am a guy that read the stats after a game before computers in my life. I noticed the losing team had more yards alot of times even though They played like crap. To me when we see the replacement for Elway, we will see it, and won’t need to check his stats on anything
by Baghdad on Jul 24, 2011 8:18 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Still don't like the article
… but it did generate a lot of good discussions… some of the most productive on the Orton situation to date…
For that I give you props Mr. Lynch.
And thanks to all the MHR community for having a good, considered conversation on a very grey-area topic. This is why I hang here.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Mile High Report
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
Getting Social With MHR
Web Stuff
In Association With
Shutdown Corner - NFL - Yahoo! Sports
- Things to know about NFL men who served in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam
- How Kyle Orton almost cost the Colts Andrew Luck
- Detroit Lions DT Nick Fairley arrested again; now has more NFL arrests than NFL sacks
- Former high-school star Brian Banks does serious time on trumped-up charge, now hopes for an NFL shot
- Former ‘idiot kicker’ Mike Vanderjagt in trouble after accosting junior-high heckler
