Some Clarification is in Order: Orton, Tebow, or Both?
by Topher Doll on Jul 31, 2011 4:00 PM MDT
in Some Clarification is in Order
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PrintSo Tim Lynch recently inspired me to do some research with his recent article about Orton and Tebow. Now the basis of his post wasn't what inspired me, it was his title, A Two-Headed Beast, and some of the following discussion that started my mind working. Many people think of this as Orton versus Tebow, but why not make it Orton and Tebow?
What do I mean by this? Well the statistics of Orton versus Tebow have been debated countless times here on Mile High Report, and fans see it as one against the other, but many forget that last season we saw what they could do together, and I want to take a look to see if it was more effective, less effective, or about the same in a number of categories.
Let's get studying!
Preview and Method:
So in this study we are going to look at the offense when only Orton lead the team in the red zone, when only Tebow lead the team in the red zone, and when both saw playing time in the red zone. So let's break this down then
Orton-Only Games:
- Jacksonville
- Seattle
- Indianapolis
- Tennessee
- Baltimore
- Oakland (Game 1)
- San Diego (Game 1)
- St. Louis
- Kansas City (Game 2)
- Arizona
Tebow-Only Games:
- Oakland (Game 2)
- Houston
- San Diego (Game 2)
Orton-Tebow Games:
- NY Jets
- San Francisco
- Kansas City (Game 1)
Now we will be looking at these three categories from a number of different angles. Here's the list:
- Total Games
- Win Percentage
- Points per Game
- Red Zone Success Rate (For this study we are looking at drives that ended in a touchdown rather than just a score).
- Average Margin of Win/Loss per Game (This take points for and points against and combines them to get a total differential that is then used to create an average. Say we play two games, we lost the first by 10 points but won the second by 4, we have a difference of negative 6 points, or -6,, so the average margin would be -3 points.)
Now there is one remaining factor and that this is a really small sample size, but the results do make a very powerful point.
The Data:
| Stats | Just Orton | Just Tebow | With Tebow in RZ |
|---|---|---|---|
| Games | 10 | 3 | 3 |
| Win Percentage | 2-8 (25%) | 1-2 (33%) | 1-2 (33%) |
| Points per Game | 18.4 | 25 | 28.3 |
| RZ TD Success Rate | 43% | 53% | 77% |
| Average Margin of Win/Loss | -11.8 | -10.6 | +2.7 |
Summary:
While this has been a shorter article than usual, it was something that just came to mind that I wanted to look at. So lets review the table. It's pretty clear at this point that Kyle Orton is better between the 20's, heck it's a mocking point for many. His accuracy, lack of turnovers and smart reads get him to the red zone a lot, and Tim Tebow proved last season he's the better of the two in the red zone, with his legs and arm. So the data just supports the idea that using both was more successful. While we had the same record with just Tebow and with the Teborton combo, we were more competitive with both, scored more points per game, had had over 20% more success scoring touchdowns in the red zone.
So when people say it's bad to change your QB during a game, they might be right at times, but not in our case in the red zone. Orton between the 20's and both of them in the red zone saw us have our greatest success last season. So fellow Bronco fans, Orton staying isn't the end of the heck, but having both him and Tebow get playing time during a game doesn't hurt us, actually it's the best option for us. Now remember that Tebow doesn't have to come in every time we enter the red zone, but using him at least once per game saw an improvement. The threat of Tebow helps Orton's already solid RZ performance.
This study took me from being a Tebow man to being a Teborton man, we were just plan better with both. Add in we get the benefit of Orton's skill and knowledge while Tebow gets more playing time to develop. So let's not make this Tebow versus Orton, let's make it Tebow and Orton.
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Nice short article Max....things could be worse for sure...
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Is it Free Agency yet? Wake me up when it starts!
Indeed, we could be in Seattle's QB situation
Or Buffalo or Washington’s.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
I’m kinda surprised Buffalo hasn’t inquired about Orton. I guess they’re comfortable going with Fitzpatrick.
by jbbroncosfan27 on Jul 31, 2011 4:16 PM MDT up reply actions
Fitz is a decent quarterback
Guess they figured they’d fix their other issues before they fix their QB situation.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Ralph Wilson
is still mad at us that we stole Tim Tebow from him. Remember all that crap he produced after the 2010 NFL Draft? I’m shocked that senile old coot can go to the bathroom by himself
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Jul 31, 2011 4:36 PM MDT up reply actions
damn shame we did imo
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. DA
by Whidbey Bronco on Jul 31, 2011 5:11 PM MDT up reply actions
Yeah...Seattle, Washington and Miami will still be in play.
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Is it Free Agency yet? Wake me up when it starts!
I had such hopes for Seattle this year
But sadly they may suck by thinking Jackson or Whitehurst will help them win that division.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
and injuries or poor play (seattle/Cleveland/Minnisota/Miami)
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. DA
by Whidbey Bronco on Jul 31, 2011 4:32 PM MDT up reply actions
I trademarked that btw.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft tiers. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
I already had Ortbow
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. DA
by Whidbey Bronco on Jul 31, 2011 4:33 PM MDT up reply actions
Tebow's pro-life
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. DA
by Whidbey Bronco on Jul 31, 2011 4:34 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
That was brilliant REC"D.
-Champ Bailey's calendar goes straight from March 31st to April 2nd; no one fools Champ Bailey-
-The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese -
lol
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. DA
by Whidbey Bronco on Jul 31, 2011 5:11 PM MDT up reply actions
Just One Question
I like Ortbow better than Teborton. Orton comes first because he gets you to the 20, then Tebow comes next to punch it in. Maybe that’s the next poll. My question is: where can we get shirts with the name Ortbow and the number 915 on the back? Maybe put MHR and Denver Broncos on the front. Sell them at TC.
The older I get, the better I was!
by OrangeandBluesBros on Aug 1, 2011 7:37 AM MDT up reply actions
I was thinking the same thing...
the sheer physics of it mystify me.
www.twitter.com/eljbow
16-0 until we aren't
162-0 until we aren't
That's a good thing
I was terrible with physics in high school.
www.twitter.com/eljbow
16-0 until we aren't
162-0 until we aren't
Interesting analysis
But small sample size makes this data inconclusive.
It makes sense from a purely “which one is best at this spot on the field” thought, but can’t really take the multi-game impact of a starting QB not really being the team’s leader all the time. However, if anyone can make this sort of a cooperative approach work, it would be Tebow and Orton.
I mentioned that in the beginning
But I do agree, but I just did the research for fun and was shocked at the results, it wasn’t like a small difference, it was pretty huge.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
The three "shared" games
were the 6th (Jets); 8th (SF); and 9th (KC 1st). Don’t know what that means, but I’ll point out the steady improvement of the O line over the course of the season.
Personal relations consist of an uneasy truce between powerful, solitary fantasy systems.
Janet Malcolm
49 pts against KC biases the study IMO
But it still seems to make so much sense, other than the rarity of it. Anybody remember a game years ago when Elway was out and they used both the back-up QB’s on what seemed like rotational for every play? Around 92-93 maybe?
i know im realitively new here
and new to football in general. but i just want to go on record as one of the first people who had this idea.. Orton from 20-20 Tebow in the redzone. I’m glad its finally gathering some momentum. Its unconventional football to be certain but Tebow is a RZ threat and if you put them both on together in the RZ maybe Tebow is getting the ball maybe he’s a decoy. Maybe the ball is hiked to Orton, but doesnt get his look and shuffles it to Tebow who runs it in, or if still behind the line, throws it to one of our new RZ threat TEs. it has a whole lot of possibilities. It takes would take them both to embrace their flaws and work together. but both seems like stand up guys and its just crazy enough it might work.
I almost made a post on this back in March or April, but i was afraid of being laughed at…
Way different RZ this year .... I hope
Last year we could not run and thought tight ends were the best assets of our cheer leaders. Hopefully the new regime will follow through with the running game and will have niffty new uses for that sixth guy on the line. If so then I believe that Tebows athletic exploits will be mitigated and Orton will find higher success rates.
by Flunkie on Jul 31, 2011 4:17 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
yeah i have this feeling too
but can stand to be even more effective if tebow is thrown in their a few times a game. maybe?
by veggiezaffer on Jul 31, 2011 4:24 PM MDT up reply actions
Improving the O-line and running game performance will help both quarterbacks, not just Orton
Example A (bad running game): Defense has to account for 2 possibilities: Orton/Tebow throwing or Tebow running.
Example B (good running game): Defense has to account for 3 possibilities: Orton/Tebow throwing or Tebow running or Moreno running.
Now if your point was an improved running game will result in fewer yards and TD’s for Tebow, then I agree. But the threat of him running is still key to keeping the defense honest.
"We will be a physically and mentally tough football team. And it's not something you talk about, it's something you live your life with.’’
Will Muschamp, December 14, 2010
It's hard to argue those numbers.
But here’s the thing. If Tebow is good to great in the red zone, why not just go ahead and let him play quarterback the rest of the time, too?
twitter: @postpunk27
Because looking at his numbers between the 20's
They aren’t good, actually they are just terrible. This way since we are stuck with Orton, use both players to their strengths.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
I understand.
I guess it is just the unconventionality of it that I don’t like. You don’t see many teams pull it off with real success, so I’ve always just assumed that you pick one guy and go with him.
twitter: @postpunk27
Some teams use it well
The Jets use Brad Smith, as did the Bucs. It really comes down to how it’s used, and if we use both like we did last season, I don’t see a down side. We are in the RZ, so rhythem isn’t a big issue, and we use both players how they are meant to be used, Tebow excels in dual threat situations, especially in tight quarters like the RZ. And Orton is best between the 20’s when he can stretch the field.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
BUT...most of his plays came on "chunk" plays.....so he does have the vertical pass game....
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Is it Free Agency yet? Wake me up when it starts!
But those are a minority
Tebow’s inaccuracy and still developing progression reading cause him to struggle in passing situations that require him to make multiple reads.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Hes a rookie...wont get any better until he plays...same ciruclar argument...hahaha....way we go again.....is what it is...thats my mantra for now on!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Is it Free Agency yet? Wake me up when it starts!
Haha
But the point still stands, if you have two players who are good at one aspect, should you use them to their best?
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
For a ROOKIE? No way
He was a rookie last year (with almost NO reps in practice as has been documented). When he starts he will either improve dramatically (and hence we do not need Orton), or he will fail, and prove we need to look at other long term options. If we try this idea, we are doing little more than wasting a year of development and not really getting any answers until next year.
The stupid truth is that this argument can go on forever until Tebow actually plays. Until he has started some games in pressure situations, there will ALWAYS be SOME journeyman QB out there that has done more than TT by way of playing time. Hell, Matt Moore has done more than Tebow. Should we sign him and play him as the “best” QB? Seriously, some consideration has to be made for potential. Elway was NOT the best QB on the roster either when he first started, but the coaches clearly understood that his potential ceiling was so much higher than the middle of the road!
by Da Bum on Jul 31, 2011 4:52 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
I'm not saying that he should never play
Or that overall he was just terrible, I’m saying he was terrible, even for a rookie, between the 20’s. People can make excuses, and I’m very much in support of Tebow in the long run, but he was bad as a rookie between the 20’s. He was a rookie, and is still young, but you don’t use players to their weaknesses, you use them to their strengths.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
agreed.
Also important to hedge our bet on a possible failure here…
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. DA
by Whidbey Bronco on Jul 31, 2011 5:13 PM MDT up reply actions
He was a rookie
I mean, people are aware of that right?
You are comparing a 6 year vet to a 3 game rookie.
I mean, am I the only person that sees this? Tebow will never get better just playing red zone.
In short, Orton sucks, and McD’s play calling made him look steller in the 20s.
Here’s a thought, why don’t you pull the McD-less Orton stats and compare those to Tebows?
by Brian Conrad on Jul 31, 2011 7:27 PM MDT up reply actions
I wasn't comparing them at all
And “Orton sucks” is just plain incorrect, average yes, sucks, no. Please I can understand you wanting just Tebow to start, but try and add something rather than just attacking an idea.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Haha
Fair enough, but Orton sucks! ;)
Okay, how’s this:
His numbers last year are very comparable to his numbers in his second year. He is actually worse on some items (TD%). Only difference? Passing attemps. And not all because we were behind or had no running game going. McD’s game is BUILT for passing as the running game. Dump all of those screens and 5-10 yard 1st down dumps and see where the numbers go.
Heck, if you are going to bring Tebow in in the RZ because Orton is bad (sucks) there, why not bring him on third downs, or whenever there is a blitz. Let’s ask the other team when they are going to blitz, that way we can sub Tebow in. (this is sarcasm).
by Brian Conrad on Jul 31, 2011 7:52 PM MDT up reply actions
Orton does not suck...I am pro Tebow but Orton is a decent starting QB...probably Top 15...
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Is it Free Agency yet? Wake me up when it starts!
With just Tebow, we were middle of the pack.
With just Orton we were terrible.
With both we were the best scoring team in the RZ. lol
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft tiers. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
I still figure its not the end of the world having Orton on the team in 2011.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft tiers. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
because he's still too green.
IMO anyway. 80 yrds is a long way to go for that guy ya know. he has to make too many defensive reads, still throws inaccurate long balls. I think he will get there, but there is no denying Orton was stellar between the 20s. started off on pace to shatter Marino’s record… so if we have two good QBs why not use both of them. Defenses will be befuddled. Hell you can even dress Quinn as a WR and he’s got decent hands. Ever heard of a 3 QB set up? Now i know i have to much of that funny smelling grass
by veggiezaffer on Jul 31, 2011 4:28 PM MDT up reply actions
3QB set or with the way our FA is going..
5 TE set:no RB or WR. Defenses will be like WTF?
-Champ Bailey's calendar goes straight from March 31st to April 2nd; no one fools Champ Bailey-
-The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese -
Can the title instead be TEBOTRON
I know it flips the order of two letters but it sounds more awesome like a machine or giant screen.
not bad.
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. DA
by Whidbey Bronco on Jul 31, 2011 5:14 PM MDT up reply actions
No more gimmicks!
Leave Orton, our starting QB, in for the entire game. Our receivers and running backs get paid to score. Let them do their jobs. Doesn’t make sense to pull the players who do the heavy lifting and drive the ball down the field. When Tebow has won the starting job and proved that he can be a starting QB in the NFL, then make him the starter. Bringing Tebow in for the easy TDs(or gravy) is similar to taking food off the table of the receivers and running backs. That’s how they earn their money. Imo, bringing Tebow in is bad for the team. Nothing more than a gimmick for Bowlen. If you want to let Tebow earn his outrageous paycheck, put him in on special teams or play him at fullback.
“The closer Kyle Orton gets to the goal line, the better he gets.” – John Madden 2008, Bears vs Eagles SNF. The team needs to make improvements in the running game, OL, and get a friggin TE that can actually get open inside the red zone. Then and only then will the offense improve inside the red zone.
Cmon Rocko
we all know that KO doesn’t get better as he gets closer to goal line…I don’t care if Madden said that or not! IDK about when he played for Chicago, but I’ve watched EVERY game since he’s become a Bronco and don’t tell me you think he gets better as he gets closer to paydirt.
And if it’s so easy to score on those “gravy” touchdowns that Tebow got, why wasn’t Orton doing it when he was in? Remember our running backs couldn’t do it in short yardage either! I’ll take more of those gravy Tebow TD’s any day!!
by Mile High ThundaDownUnda on Jul 31, 2011 5:30 PM MDT up reply actions
Orton actually was good in the RZ
Tebow was just better.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
well lets be real here Tebow wasnt brought in to throw the ball in those situations he was brought in to run the ball thats not a reflection of Orton who threw for 80 yards to get us to the redzone its a reflection of our running game in the redzone
“Offensively, there are actually two or three strengths,” Fox said. "We were 13th in the league in total offense, I think we were seventh in passing and down a little lower in the run game. I think when we balance that a little bit more it will be more conducive to points because it makes you more effective in the red area.
Max is right however Fox doesnt seem to keen on his backup QB leading the team in rushing tds which is why Mcgahee and White were brought in and now hes added huge TE’s that can catch.
He seems to be remedying the reasons Tebow had to come in to begin with with his offensive personnel moves. If they dont work out he Tim would get his shot but old school Fox is gonna want to establish that smash mouth style right from the start .It will be interesting to say the least how it plays out
by Hoopforia on Jul 31, 2011 6:17 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Chicago had a good running games and TEs that could actually get open!
PLUS, well designed plays inside the 10 yards. ALL of which, we didn’t have last year. Instead of focusing on gimmick plays that the NFL catches up to very quickly, let’s improve our running game and TE play inside the 10 yard line. KO will have an easier time with better personnel and play design. there should be no need to pull your starting QB off the field. This the NFL not college.
I'm a Bronco fan, not a Tebow fan...
But it’s pretty obvious to me that Tebow is better on 3rd downs and the RZ/scoring…hmmm, seems like those are the more important things to be good at. He needs some live reps to get better at the other stuff AND an offensive scheme that better compliments his abilities. That’s what we’ll get if we start Tebow IMO….a qb that is a natural at 3rd downs and RZ and will get much better between the 20’s with the reps.
As Boydy always says, we’re rebuilding. Why not use this precious time where there won’t be the same pressure as normal to quickly get Tebow where he needs to be. Once Tebow is there I believe that’s when we start getting scary!
Thanks for the post BTW Max, I found this very interesting data.
by Mile High ThundaDownUnda on Jul 31, 2011 5:21 PM MDT reply actions
Tebow wasn't actually better on 3rd downs
But he was better in the RZ.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
I'm just going by my eyeball test
on 3rd downs, so I’ll concede there; but your data on RZ is not even close. I guess if 43% is good (I don’t really know but I believe you), then 77% must be insane.
I guess its the same point that has been brought up again and again though, which is that some camps just want Tebow to get in there now and start developing as quickly as possible because we see the huge potential. If it doens’t pan out then we can go a different direction. That’s the camp I’m in.
If Orton starts and does as well as he did last year between the 20’s AND improves in the RZ and 3rd down YEEEHAAWW sign him up with a long term contract. I just want to get back to being a perennial contender…not win 8 games this year at the expense of development.
by Mile High ThundaDownUnda on Jul 31, 2011 5:50 PM MDT up reply actions
Good points.The real message here
The real message here though is that Tebow and Orton (Teborton if you don’t mind me using it) is better than just Tebow or just Orton.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
i'm telling you Tebortion comes too easy. I'd say the same if you were going to name your boy shirly. Don't risk it.
This coming from a man named Pink…
Ortbow.
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. DA
by Whidbey Bronco on Jul 31, 2011 6:05 PM MDT up reply actions
and yes they're better as a unit
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. DA
by Whidbey Bronco on Jul 31, 2011 6:05 PM MDT up reply actions
Yeah, and I agree that your data shows that Tebortion (yuk) is better;
But how much better can the Broncos be if they hand the reigns to Tebow and let him fully develop instead of having him play the roll of gimmick QB? Nobody knows, it’s risk vs. reward. I’d rather take a drop in production in the beginning of the season to see what we’ve got.
by Mile High ThundaDownUnda on Jul 31, 2011 6:25 PM MDT up reply actions
"But he (Tebow) was better in the RZ."
Dunno about that, max.
With Tebow at QB the last three games the Broncos were 6/9 in the red zone (67%), compared with 23/43 the other 13 games (53%). However, in the five games before Tebow took over, the Broncos were 11/14 in the red zone (79%).
So, in games 9-13, with Orton, the Broncos were 79% in the red zone. In Tebow’s three games as a starter, the Broncos were 67%.
Personal relations consist of an uneasy truce between powerful, solitary fantasy systems.
Janet Malcolm
It's not fair to either QB to use them that way and it pigion holes their talent.. also more a McD type of thought than a Fox thought.. Just want to let you know in advance it won't happen.
by the way I voted Orton in the poll because he is going to be our QB this year. Too all those who have said all along that KO was not the problem. He is going to get one year of $9 million to prove that he is. If Fox is truly a defensive guru and Orton was not the problem, and we don’t get an over abundance of injuries like we did last year. his should be a better season. John Fox old style football Run and play action pass.
oldcoachB
"The will to win, the desire to succeed, the urge to reach your full potential...
these are the keys that will unlock the door to personal excellence."
Marcus Thomas just re-signed with Denver
on a one year deal. http://www.rotoworld.com/teams/clubhouse/nfl/den/broncos
Strength and honor
"It's easy to have faith in yourself and have discipline when you're a winner, when you're number one. What you've got to have is faith and discipline when you're not yet a winner." -Vince lombarti
Hallefukingloolah
Damn. Great news!
Personal relations consist of an uneasy truce between powerful, solitary fantasy systems.
Janet Malcolm
NOW WE LoVE HIM
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. DA
by Whidbey Bronco on Jul 31, 2011 6:06 PM MDT up reply actions
Wow, I never would have imagined this news could make me feel so relieved!
Thanks for the update. Lets hope Fox/DA and the new 4-3 can bring out his potential!
GO BRONCOS!
by Mile High ThundaDownUnda on Jul 31, 2011 5:56 PM MDT reply actions
Me too I found it interesting that the NYG were the other team interested in him.
oldcoachB
"The will to win, the desire to succeed, the urge to reach your full potential...
these are the keys that will unlock the door to personal excellence."
we resigned marcus thomas?
why is this a big deal? he was also one of our crappy d linemen from previous years…we have still yet to address any of the defense including DT and CB
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
CB at least!!
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. DA
by Whidbey Bronco on Jul 31, 2011 6:06 PM MDT up reply actions
Ha Ha, because he is a living breathing DT!!
Also a lot of people think that he has potential and he’ll be better in the 4-3, he is still young, and knows the Broncos system with a very short time to the raiders game.
IDK about CB, do we really need a CB?
by Mile High ThundaDownUnda on Jul 31, 2011 6:08 PM MDT up reply actions
are you kidding?
somebody list our starting quality CBs please?
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. DA
by Whidbey Bronco on Jul 31, 2011 6:11 PM MDT up reply actions
Champ Bailey and Andre Goodman. SydQuan Thompson at nickel. Nate Jones in the Dime.
Follow me on Twitter: ballinnickcast
Xbox360 gamertag: SnipeMeHarder
Goody sucked at times last year, Both starters are highly prone to injury at this stage in their careers (I'd bet a paycheck that neither start 16 games this year)
Quan shows promise but is NOT a solid starter and Jones? NO.
If Cox (also NOT a starter) doesn’t make it in, we’re in trouble depth-wise at the very least!!
Why is nobody worried about this position?
We have zero depth. ZERO.
Really small star prospects for the future
and a relatively weak line-up when they’re all healthy.
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. DA
by Whidbey Bronco on Jul 31, 2011 6:35 PM MDT up reply actions
I would like to see some help at CB too.
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Is it Free Agency yet? Wake me up when it starts!
I think Goody is a quality CB...
He was just injured a lot last year. Cox is a question mark, but with Champ, Goody, Vaughn and Squid I think we are stable. I don’t think cox is in court until October so that buys us some time.
by Mile High ThundaDownUnda on Jul 31, 2011 6:17 PM MDT up reply actions
Way I see it...
and this is a little bit messed up, we don’t really NEED a CB until something happens with Perrish Cox’s situation. Being that the earliest anything can happen there is mid to late season, we can wait on that issue.
www.twitter.com/eljbow
16-0 until we aren't
162-0 until we aren't
What we really need is a SOLID DT!!
by Mile High ThundaDownUnda on Jul 31, 2011 6:20 PM MDT up reply actions
you're both tripping. CB is now our #1 need.
with WHO available?
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. DA
by Whidbey Bronco on Jul 31, 2011 6:36 PM MDT up reply actions
We don't have a starting DT...who's trippin?
I agree with you that our CB’s could get hurt, but at least we have two starters to begin with! I’d take a CB, but I would rather have a starting DT first to go with our roster full of rotational guys!
by Mile High ThundaDownUnda on Jul 31, 2011 6:47 PM MDT up reply actions
hard to argue but we don't even have a rotation @ CB.
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. DA
by Whidbey Bronco on Jul 31, 2011 7:32 PM MDT up reply actions
THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO CLARIFICATION NEEDED!
John will decide!
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
for the sake of the team, I VOTED TEBORTON.
I think if Orton isnt traded then teborton is our best bet. I am like 86%(last poll I saw) of bronco fans that want tebow to start 16 games, but if that cant happen we should just trust the coaching staff and support whomever is our starting QB, and/or our rz qb. I will be REALLY disappointed if bronco fans boo Orton. If he starts, he deserves too.
sounds to like a prochoice ...choice.
That ends with death lol.
Tom Landry LOVED the idea but it failed and we got Morton (Stabortion?) the next year!!
It sounds good and will be fine for a second of our transition but it doesn’t work with humans who need to believe it’s THEIR job.
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. DA
by Whidbey Bronco on Jul 31, 2011 7:35 PM MDT up reply actions
You pretty much just wrote my opinion on the situation
Well said.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
You have to wonder how Orton, in a contract year, will react if Tebow takes a lot of the goal to go snaps.
That won’t help Orton get that contract he is playing for.
That could get interesting. Can you say bombs to Lloyd?
"Well at least we picked a good year to suck" said Pat Bowlen after countersigning Von Miller's rookie contract.
It worked last year
And since coaches watch film as well as look at snaps, they’ll see that it was game planning that held Orton’s TD’s down a bit. But I sure wouldn’t complain about lots of deep passes.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Actually
It didn’t work last year. 4-12.
You are making an assumption that the coaches will some how find some magic Tebow/Orton beans that will put them in the sme game consistently that will work and not be a detriment to the team.
Sorry, but it isn’t going to happen.
by Brian Conrad on Jul 31, 2011 7:54 PM MDT up reply actions
Equating team record to individual ability is a bad metric
And shouldn’t be used, plain and simple. The offense worked last season, the team did not, don’t confuse the two.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Sorry
The offense worked last season, the team did not, don’t confuse the two.
I completely disagree. If the offense worked why did we score almost a TD more per game when Tebow came in? Why did we fail in the RZ so often?
Did the defense suck? Sure. But the offense sucked about 75% as bad.
by Brian Conrad on Jul 31, 2011 8:50 PM MDT up reply actions
See those statements are wrong
From both the eye tests and statistically. You are seperating a player from a squad, then using a player to measure a squad. I guess at this point it’s agree to disagree.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Orton wasn’t playing for a contract in 2010.
The NFL isn’t Madden with emotionalizes players without alternative motives.
Even you have to admit it has the potential to get ugly if Tebow is taking away Orton’s goal to go opportunities in Kyle’s contract year.
"Well at least we picked a good year to suck" said Pat Bowlen after countersigning Von Miller's rookie contract.
Neither Tebow nor Orton
Seem like the player who would risk losing a game to make themselves look better. But neither of us actually can get into their minds, it’s impossible to know for sure, but based on the past experience of both players, it won’t be an issue.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Really wish EFX made a run for Greg Olsen!
Orton worked extremely well with Greg in Chicago. Bears were stupid to release him imo.
I heard a former NFL player
speak this afternoon and this could be a recipe for disaster. In the business of the NFL, especially for the fringe player, these guys need continuity and decisiveness and someone to rally behind. Not rotation.
Kyle was brilliant between the 20’s and Tim may be the most dangerous redzone player in the NFL before its all over. This year could be different for Orton because the Broncos just added some redzone help in Julius Thomas and Willis McGahee he may not struggle as much.
The Starting QB being subbed out once in the redzone could divide the team. If Orton is the starter and he and Llyod get to the redzone, I feel it better to let him succeed or fail, whomever starts.
The team needs someone to hitch their wagon to.
We did that last year.
Orton 43%, Tebow 54% or whatever.
Together it was 77%.
As Charlie Sheen would say, WINNING!
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Keep in mind this is done by at least 3 NFL teams currently
And it worked last season. This isn’t a new idea, it’s a proven method that has, and is working, in the NFL.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Jeez...only Broncos fans would be upset with the prospect of success.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft tiers. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
Sorry Tim
But there is no prospect of sucsess to be had here.
Find one single time this has worked in the modern era of NFL football, for more than a few games, and I might be wiling to listen.
But in the NFL, if you have 2 starting QBs, you have no QB.
by Brian Conrad on Jul 31, 2011 8:33 PM MDT up reply actions
That said
I am still a big optimist and very excited about the rest of the team and year, I have also been very happy with that EFX have done with what they can so far. But the Orton/Tebow controversy needs to be settled ASAP.
by Brian Conrad on Jul 31, 2011 8:42 PM MDT up reply actions
2006 Florida Gators
I realize its not NFL, but it worked pretty well then…
I think the more interesting question would be to ask what NFL teams have the talent to be able to consider this? How many teams have an accurate starter and a 2nd qb who is as much of a beast as Tebow? And both guys seem to be enough of a team player to make it work?
I think perhaps Philly last year talent wise, but probably not the team player aspect…. plus the injuries…
Perhaps that is why no one has done it?
Jets, Broncos, and Bucs last year
As well as the 2009 Jets and Seahawks, 2007 Jets, Ravens and Seahawks, 2006 Dolphins and Raiders, and the 2005 Browns, Ravens, Titans and 49ers. These are just examples for the past few seasons. Prove to me it won’t work, because I’ve got examples it does work.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Brad Smith is not a QB.
The only team that made the playoffs were the 07 seahawks, so I think you just preved it doesn’t work.
-Champ Bailey's calendar goes straight from March 31st to April 2nd; no one fools Champ Bailey-
-The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese -
It does work
It’s been proven scientifically, statistically and through the eye test. How about this, prove it doesn’t work, and I’ll change my mind, because at this point, I have way to much evidence to support this idea to change it just because people don’t like the idea.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
When only one team makes the playoffs from the teams you pointed out.
What other proof do you want?
-Champ Bailey's calendar goes straight from March 31st to April 2nd; no one fools Champ Bailey-
-The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese -
How about proof of offense
Not team results, because those teams all had fairly high levels of scoring. I want real proof, not something that is controlled by outside factors, that’s a bad experiment and not valid.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
07 Ravens: Boller 9 TD 10 INT
McNair 2 TD 4 INT
05 Ravens: Boller 11 TD 12 INT
Wright 6 TD 9 INT
09 Seahawks: Hassellbeck 17 TD 17 INT
Wallace 3 TD 2 INT
07 Seahawks: Hassellbeck 28 TD 12 INT
Wallace 2 TD 1 INT
07 Jets: Pennington 10 TD 9 INT
Clemens 5 TD 10 INT
06 Dolphins: Harrington 12 TD 15 INT
Culpepper 2 TD 3 INT
06 Raiders: Walter 3 TD 13 INT
Brooks 3 TD 8 INT
05 Browns: Dilfer 11 TD 12 INT
Frye 4 TD 5 INT
05 Titans: McNair 16 TD 11 INT
Dorsey 2 TD 2 INT
05 49ers : Smith 1 TD 11 INT
Dorsey 2 TD 2 INT
-Champ Bailey's calendar goes straight from March 31st to April 2nd; no one fools Champ Bailey-
-The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese -
Only Hasslebeck in 07 had very good stats all the other ones were...
Below Avg or terrible is putting it nicely.
-Champ Bailey's calendar goes straight from March 31st to April 2nd; no one fools Champ Bailey-
-The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese -
Points for the teams.
07 Ravens 275-17.1PPG
05 Ravens 265-16.6PPG
09 Hawks 280-17.5PPG
07 Hawks 393-24.5PPG
07 Jets 268-16.76PPG
06 Dolphins 260-16.25PPG
06 Raiders 168-10.5PPG
05 Browns 232-14.5PPG
05 Titans 421-26.3PPG
05 49ers 239-14.9PPG
So only the 07 Seahawks and 05 Titans scored more than 20PPG not very good if you ask me.
-Champ Bailey's calendar goes straight from March 31st to April 2nd; no one fools Champ Bailey-
-The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese -
Hey Max, do you still think it works having two QBs?
-Champ Bailey's calendar goes straight from March 31st to April 2nd; no one fools Champ Bailey-
-The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese -
The record of the teams you gave are 66-126.
-Champ Bailey's calendar goes straight from March 31st to April 2nd; no one fools Champ Bailey-
-The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese -
Point. Set. Match - Auto
You can be dumb... that's ok! There are many dumb people.
You can be an a$$hole... that's ok! There are many of these as well.
Unfortunately you cannot be both...
Ok... prove me wrong.
by BeachBronco on Aug 2, 2011 1:39 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
This might be trophy worthy right here.
You can be dumb... that's ok! There are many dumb people.
You can be an a$$hole... that's ok! There are many of these as well.
Unfortunately you cannot be both...
Ok... prove me wrong.
Yea I would like to know his opinion though on if having two QBs works.
-Champ Bailey's calendar goes straight from March 31st to April 2nd; no one fools Champ Bailey-
-The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese -
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