There's Something Wrong with Kyle Orton and the "Good Enough" Mentality
by BroncoPH on Aug 1, 2011 7:41 PM MDT
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PrintI've been to camp. I've watched the team. I've read the reports. I've listened to the non-stop coverage on our local sports radio stations. I've read most of the articles here on MHR. I've done my best to make heads or tails out of what is happening and I have finally come to a conclusion on the state of our sports nation.
Nobody has a clue.
Everyone has an opinion, but nobody has the answer. It's not out there, waiting for you to find on page 232 of your Google search. Trust me, I tried. Eventually all you get to is porn.
Thus, what I'm about to write will probably end up on page 230 of that Google search. I don't have any insider knowledge. I don't follow some secret source on Twitter. I can't even get Lindsay Jones to throw a re-tweet my way.
I do, however, watch the same things, read the same articles, and know some of the same facts about football that those a-holes who won't throw me a re-tweet do. After nearly two weeks of this roller-coaster ride a few things have started to become clear to me. I've heard enough. I've watched enough. These things haven't given me an answer but they have helped me form a strong opinion.
Orton's biggest threat isn't Tebow or vice versa... and there is something wrong with our boy KO.
The Broncos are rebuilding. We can probably all agree at least on that. I am sensing, however, a point of view that there is a very real possibility that the Broncos can be a worse team this year than they were last year... and that would be okay. I want to be very clear right now. There is no reason, not one, that the Broncos should be a worse team this year than they were last year. 4-12 is unacceptable. 3-13 is a disaster. 2-14 or worse is an utter collapse and should truly depress this great fanbase. There is no reason for us to settle for less. Not if the goal is to rebuild.
There's a word that coaches like to use a lot and that is progress. It's the silver lining of bad. It's one thing to be bad but moving in the right direction (hello Detroit Lions) but it's an entirely different thing to be bad and moving in the other direction. Coaches want to know, are we seeing some kind of progress in our players, in our schemes, and in our execution? In a rebuilding year the answer to that question absolutely must be yes. The Broncos must show progress over last season. At this moment, right now, Kyle Orton must also be a part of that progression.
Why Kyle Orton's Biggest Threat to Start Is Not Tim Tebow
There's something wrong with Kyle Orton. I don't know exactly what it is, but there is something wrong with our current QB1. Everywhere I read and everything I hear people are rallying behind Kyle Orton... but nobody wants him or seems to really believes in him. It's all over these boards. Even his supporters here say "Kyle Orton gives us the best chance to win but we're still going to suck!" Like that is some kind of argument in favor of keeping him. Are you kidding me? What the hell kind of logic is that?
I don't get it. I don't understand how everyone looks at his stats and goes "hum, he's not that bad. He'll be good for some other team" while in the back of their minds they seem to be thinking "just not our team".
I don't understand how Kevin Kolb, a QB with such limited play experience, tiny resume, and poor W-L record can land a #1 overall draft pick kind of money while Kyle Orton is being bargained for a presumable 3rd rounder and he can't even get a decent contract extension.
Everyone is singing his praises... but nobody wants him. How is that possible? I can understand a fanbase that had to suffer through our miserable season last year wanting to say "hey thanks but see ya, best of luck, we're rooting for you to continue to be slightly above average". The sympathy pat on the back. I get us appreciating him and not wanting him. That makes sense to me. But every other team with QB needs? Why isn't he their answer?
We love stories that express that kind of appreciation sentiment because it makes us feel good. We aren't heartless bastards ready to throw away a QB we know wasn't the real problem. It's the classic, it's not you it's me excuse. We make Kyle Orton feel good he's leaving. He feels good, we feel good. Everything's kosh right? Please. Nothing is kosh. Something isn't right here. Kyle Orton, for all the praise he gets, is not wanted and now we tried to make the break but it didn't work. Awkward.
What does it say about a quarterback with the statistical success (a deflection that says please don't pay attention to his win-loss record, that's not the true story) that Kyle Orton has had who can't seem to get teams excited about his prospects. I can't answer that. But it intrigues me, and it concerns me. Kyle Orton isn't wanted for a 3rd round tender. What are other teams seeing that we don't? Did you know that the Broncos don't even sell a Kyle Orton jersey in their Dove Valley pro-shop? Not even one. It's like we aren't supposed to like this guy.
Where does Kyle Orton fit in this new regime? Does he even have an identity as a Denver Bronco? What is going on?
Kyle Orton's greatest concern should be his contract and what his continued employment with this team represents. It would seem Kyle Orton is a Bronco by force, and mere economic choice. An arranged marriage. You won't see him setting up car dealerships in town. He'll probably be more than happy to help increase his professional value, collect his money, and vacation far far away.
But if he is going to collect his money, he sure as hell better earn it. No more good stat passes. Fans should hold him to the only stat that matters... Wins. None of this he's the best QB but we're still going to suck BS. That drives me crazy.
Kyle Orton must be better than 4-12 if he starts. I know a lot of you are probably going to flame me and say that W-L is meaningless but it's not anymore. Kyle Orton doesn't get another crappy W-L pass. Our defense will be better. Our run game will be better. The Denver Broncos will be better in 2011-2012 and if Kyle Orton is starting, he must be better too.
Progression. It's not enough anymore for Kyle Orton to be consistently average. If he wants the big contract extension, if he wants these fans to finally rally around him, if he wants his jersey in the pro-shop, and if he wants to be appreciated in this town he must be better than just average. He needs to be better. He needs to surprise us. Kyle Orton needs to show us something new... because more of the same is exactly what a rebuilding time like the Broncos cannot have. That money would be better used elsewhere.
So to Kyle Orton, you're still here and this is awkward. I have a new it's not you it's me letter. Please don't smash the windows in my car.
Dear Kyle,
I was willing to say hey thanks for the memories, better luck at your next job. It wasn't you, it was us. We were the ones that sucked and you were the good one. Sorry we couldn't be better for you. I'll root for you when I watch the fifteen seconds of post-game recap I catch on Sportscenter every Sunday night. I'll think about what could have been between us. If only... This was going to be a polite break-up.
But when I wrote that two weeks ago I thought you were really leaving. Now I have to be honest and say after you left I would have tried to forget that you were ever here, like I would have done my best to forget most all of last season. Don't worry, it wouldn't have been you. It would have been me. You would have been a casualty of a very bad year and a half.
I was trying to be nice. I was trying to say what everyone else is saying, that you are really a good QB that has just played for bad teams... even though I don't really think you are a great QB... or ever will be. That statistically you should be worth way more than some Kolb guy who just signed with the Cards for the contract you dream of.
But now that you are still here, and the chances of you moving on are dwindling, it's time I say what I feel. The it's not you it's me phase is over. If we are now in an arranged relationship then things have changed. If this team doesn't do better than we did last year, if you don't play better than you did last year, we are going to have serious beef. We will need counseling.
I don't understand why no other teams want you. It'd sure be nice though if you could prove them all wrong. But please don't take your 8.5 million and smugly watch this team flounder for another season. This may have just become another job to you, but this is my team. You get to move on if we fail, I don't.
Kyle, we went out and got your defense. We got you a run-oriented coach. We got you some new backs. Make us better. No more good-stat-years-that-net-us-3-wins. No more.
Love,
A concerned fan
P.S. Seriously, don't screw this up.
Why Tim Tebow doens't have to be better than Kyle Orton to earn the job
Tim Tebow needs to show Coach Fox that he can execute. Let's get real here. Tim Tebow, as far as second year players go, is still very raw when it comes to NFL experience. He must convince Fox that if he is the starter he can do what is asked of him without making too many mistakes.
That's they key. Not making mistakes. Rookie(ish) QB's aren't going to go out and set records. It's nice when they do, don't get me wrong, but their biggest goal, their #1 priority, is to execute. Tim Tebow isn't going to be asked to go out there and win games on his own. He doesn't have to. Any coach understands that's not a responsibility of a young QB. Tebow's goal must be execution and this is where the short offseason has hurt him badly. Execution in sports is achieved through repetition, and repetition is accomplished over time. Time is greater than one week.
I can't stress this enough to all you out there that are looking to find the answer to our QB crisis in Training Camp. This is the first week. This is the worst our team should look all season. Progression. That's what we are looking for here. Don't hang on to every interception as a sign our QB's are failing. That also means our defense is getting better. I don't care so much about how each QB did in practice every morning when I wake up early to read KK's daily recap. I want to read these words, "The Broncos are looking better." What I want is at the end of this Camp for his final review to say the Broncos have progressed. They were rusty in the beginning, but they look polished now.
If you are stressing because Tebow is getting a bad rap for his TC performance... stop. I guarantee you he will get better as camp goes on. If Tim Tebow can prove to EFX that he can execute in gametime, he'll get his chance. Tim Tebow doesn't need to beat Orton in camp, he needs to prove himself. That's it. Then the Broncos can turn back to seriously consider trading Orton and his contract again and take that money to shore up holes on other parts of the team.
If you are delighting in Tebow's struggles in camp and using it as a foundation to make your case for Orton starting you are missing the point. If Orton is your guy for starter, pay attention to his development. Kyle Orton of 2010 has to show progress. If your argument is that status quo is just fine, it is not fine. There is nothing "fine" about 3 wins. He needs to be better just like the whole team needs to be better. Orton doesn't get to hide behind his passing stats anymore. He must win. He needs to show he can earn that 8.5 million because if Brady Quinn can win us 3 games he'll match Orton's status quo for pennies on the dollar and I'd much rather he do that and let the Broncos use Orton's salary to give out free beers.
We've got Tebow on the cheap for the next four years. If he is the QB that shows progress, that shows he can effectively run this offense, than he absolutely needs to be the one getting his reps in. Earning that experience and showing us his potential. I want an improving Tebow for 2 million a year much more than I want a what you see is what you get veteran in KO at 9 million a year for the next 4 years.
Bottom line, Orton is expensive for this rebuilding Broncos team. If he's going to earn his paycheck 4-12 is not acceptable. Don't accept it. Don't be okay with a free pass this year. In my opinion, we must win at least 6 games with Orton or Tebow under center. But especially with Orton. If we go 4-12 with Orton again... then this season will truly have been a waste at the QB position.
Status quo is unacceptable. We must be better.
This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR
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Comments
While I loathe the idea of Orton starting again this year
I think we’re going to be better than 4-12 simply because of Fox’s effect on our defense and running game. I just hope we find a way to kill the Raiders on opening night.
Of course we are going to be better with more running game
anyone can hand the ball off if Kyle is the starter I hope he hands the ball off 50+ times a game
No save ammunition all bullets in gun now- Bruce Campbell
Stand up straight a man looks more confident when he is erect- Taj
I don't always drink and drive, but when I do, I prefer Dos Equis- BroncoPH
BRONCOS 4 LIFE
Couldn't have said it better myself
"I get sick when I hear athletes say, 'I'm not a role model.' Yes, you are. You're just not a very good one." - Tim Tebow
KO he is what he is... but excitement it will never be... unmarketable average...only lots of wins will make me believe
oldcoachB
"The will to win, the desire to succeed, the urge to reach your full potential...
these are the keys that will unlock the door to personal excellence."
The Broncos and Fox will
Our Defense will. our running game will. but KO he will only be an over paid guy who hands the ball off and is along 4 the ride lets let Tim Tebow sit on the bench again that did wonders for his development last year OMG
No save ammunition all bullets in gun now- Bruce Campbell
Stand up straight a man looks more confident when he is erect- Taj
I don't always drink and drive, but when I do, I prefer Dos Equis- BroncoPH
BRONCOS 4 LIFE
See Taylor
The thing is, Kyle Orton put up impressive numbers last year. Whether they meant anything for the wins is debatable. The accuracy of his long balls under pressure was impressive. You add a running game and ease up the pressure a bit and you get a whole new perspective. I am not saying KO is great, I am not saying the team is better with one or the other. I would ask that you take an objective look at KO and maybe promote your guy without having to take something away from someone else.
Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
by Sean in Pa. on Aug 3, 2011 4:40 AM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
I dont care about who the starting QB is just one of them has 2 go
Tim Tebow is hero QB KO is not John Elway is my hero I hate Peyton Manning do you understand now? Its about leadership its about performing when the chips are down when the play is broken KO has great stats and they sure do make him look good but hes not a hero and when the chips are down when the play is broken KO CAN NOT GET IT DONE and thats why Im for Tim Tebow
No save ammunition all bullets in gun now- Bruce Campbell
Stand up straight a man looks more confident when he is erect- Taj
I don't always drink and drive, but when I do, I prefer Dos Equis- BroncoPH
BRONCOS 4 LIFE
but if kyle is the starter I will just pray to god that he can get his stats
and everyone else can win the game
No save ammunition all bullets in gun now- Bruce Campbell
Stand up straight a man looks more confident when he is erect- Taj
I don't always drink and drive, but when I do, I prefer Dos Equis- BroncoPH
BRONCOS 4 LIFE
I’ve said this before, but I honestly think there’s something about Orton’s personality that keeps his ceiling low, and I think other teams know this.
Last offseason, McD wanted to get rid of him and brought in two other QBs. As a response, Orton raised his game. Why didn’t he raise his game before then? And then, when he raised his game, it wasn’t quite enough.
He’s shown a pattern for being good between the 20’s. Why isn’t he good in the red zone? I get that the red zone is tougher, but the split between two levels of performance is greater than other quarterbacks at his level.
Last season I remember him making a comment about having to come back late in the game. Something like, “I’m surprised we didn’t throw more interceptions.” Who says that?
When’s the last time you’ve seen Orton display any level of anger or frustration about a loss? When have you seen him take it personally that we lost? You see him wave it off as part of the game, but when do you see him act competitive about actual winning and losing?
This season you see him pull a remarkable power play with Miami and the Broncos to stay QB1 with the Broncos. Why doesn’t he display that level of creativity in the red zone?
How many of you have worked with people in your day jobs where there’s that guy? The guy who is in the mix, and will take or share the credit when things go well? And yet, it’s never his fault when the team fails, he’s just part of the team? The guy who never puts himself out on a limb and makes himself truly accountable for whether the team succeeds or fails?
Now contrast that with this video, particularly the first two words he says. Has Orton ever said those first two words?
by tunesmith on Aug 1, 2011 8:30 PM MDT reply actions 5 recs
This.
-Champ Bailey's calendar goes straight from March 31st to April 2nd; no one fools Champ Bailey-
-The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese -
This video is the reason I want Tebow. Orton (and maybe Quinn) is a better and more accurate passer, but Tebow is a leader and provides inspiration. The backup QB can’t provide this fire, it has to come from the starter.
I really don’t see how another year of sitting the bench is going to help Tebow more than a year of starting. The team is obviously okay with starting young players and having growing pains.
KO has to stay healthy
He has bad ankles. This is a problem going all the way back to his days as a Bear. His play suffered both seasons as a Bronco because of injuries. Last preseason he looked great in the pocket but his play declined as the season progressed. I wouldn’t doubt it if it was poor conditioning that holds him back.
When Tim Tebow pissses into the wind, the wind changes direction.
by Albuquerque on Aug 1, 2011 8:33 PM MDT via mobile reply actions 2 recs
A history of poor and banged up O-Line play in front of him says a lot too.
Just sayin.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
Follow me on Twitter @MHR_KaptainKirk
by KaptainKirk on Aug 2, 2011 9:14 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Kyle Orton needs a dream team around him
like I said let Tim sit on the bench he wont get any better
No save ammunition all bullets in gun now- Bruce Campbell
Stand up straight a man looks more confident when he is erect- Taj
I don't always drink and drive, but when I do, I prefer Dos Equis- BroncoPH
BRONCOS 4 LIFE
Wrong on both accounts Taylor
Orton does not need a dream team around him but like all QB’s he needs a good team, coaching staff and FO around him. the team this year is better then last and will be even better in the near future.
Tim Tebow needs time on the sidelines and will absolutely get better by practicing against NFL caliber defenders and NFL caliber coaches.
Tim Tebow will absolutely get better by practicing in an NFL style system, surrounded by NFL caliber offensive coaches and NFL caliber players.
Tim Tebow will absolutely get better by watching and learning from Kyle Orton who is an above average NFL pocket passer.
Tim Tebow will absolutely get better by taking more snaps from under center, improving his footwork, timing and decision making skills.
And if Tim Tebow doesn’t get better because of the above (not that above you wize akers) then shame on him and he doesn’t deserve a chance to be a starting QB in the NFL.
by KoloradoKaos on Aug 3, 2011 12:44 PM MDT up reply actions
He may not need a "dream team"
But the cannot have any weak spots. Orton has never shown the ability to make up for any deficiencies on the offensive side of the ball. I will not blame the defense on him, although I can’t say I’ve ever seen him on the sideline trying to amp up the D like Elway used to. He must have a solid O-line, a more than passable running game and some top-shelf receivers. Take any one part of that away and his performance suffers to the state of mediocre. Any NFL QB can sit back and pick apart a defense if given time, great WR and RBs that demand attention. I repeat, ANY NFL QB can do that. It’s the really good to great ones that can overcome deficiencies in an area or two (not all three, I’ll give you that) and still produce victories. The NFL is stocked with QBs who cannot do this, and most of them are backups.
Mediocrity is like a lollipop: lick it once and you'll suck forever.
I agree with everything you said except I would replace practice with playing a game.
-Champ Bailey's calendar goes straight from March 31st to April 2nd; no one fools Champ Bailey-
-The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese -
well said
you write eloquently and developed a great argument about our qb situation. Most importantly (IMO) you were realistic, not pessimistic or optimistic which most people fall victim to when trying to convince us which signal caller to support
Since when did Denver turn into the city of incessant whining ?
Orton showed up he had won but didnt have stats and all you did was complain now he got stats and no wins and all you did is complain
If we make the playoffs and Orton makes the probowl you will still complain.
If all you did is whine all the time the sports world tunes you out . Man up !!!!
The one and only Hoop.
-Champ Bailey's calendar goes straight from March 31st to April 2nd; no one fools Champ Bailey-
-The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese -
Hey Hoop, I know we go round and round about this too much
I know nothing I say will change your mind. I won’t even try. But let me ask you, am I wrong?
What can I say, what haven’t I said, about Orton that would even this out. I want to give Orton his credit, I really do. But you aren’t going to hear me call him great yet. It just won’t happen. Not yet. Can you call him great?
Also, I’m not exactly sure who all you are talking to. You said Denver the city of incessant whining, which I truly hope you don’t take anything I say as speaking for all of Denver, or representing anything more than just me. Or that this fansite represents Denver. You seem to be taking the blanket lashing out approach.
Then you mention how all I did was complain when Orton won with no stats and now he has stats and no wins and still I complain. I’m not quite sure how you come to this conclusion. How could you possibly know? Bro, if you knew me at all you’d know I wasn’t whining when we were 6-0 two years ago. No sir.
I hope you don’t take this as whining now. If Orton wins I’m on his bandwagon. Believe me. As a Cutler supporter during his stay I know that winning covers a host of sins. But if Orton keeps on losing, even if it’s not completely his fault, well, hell yes I will complain.
If we make the playoffs and Orton makes the probowl you will still complain.
You seem to know me very well. So well you can predict my actions in the future. That is impressive.
GB2
Tulogit to quit.
by BroncoPH on Aug 2, 2011 12:30 AM MDT up reply actions 4 recs
82.1. 87.5.
The former is the QB rating of a rookie quarterback thrown in to start for a bad team and has countless doubters. The latter is the QB rating of an experienced vet who put up “great” stats last year.
There a gap between perceived ability to run an offense effectively and the results on the field. And it’s much greater than the gap between those two numbers.
by SethGrandpa on Aug 1, 2011 9:20 PM MDT reply actions 3 recs
You sir, is what I call a Demi-God
-Champ Bailey's calendar goes straight from March 31st to April 2nd; no one fools Champ Bailey-
-The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese -
You are my brother from another mother.
-Champ Bailey's calendar goes straight from March 31st to April 2nd; no one fools Champ Bailey-
-The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese -
One of the clearest write-ups on this topic all off-season
I am impressed. There is no upside to Kyle Orton as a Denver Bronco this season, and you have given great reason to that.
Mediocrity is like a lollipop: lick it once and you'll suck forever.
We must've been seperated at birth.
-Champ Bailey's calendar goes straight from March 31st to April 2nd; no one fools Champ Bailey-
-The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese -
I don’t think you need to worry about Orton playing 16 games in Denver if we are 4-12. He’d have been replaced by week 8 if that is where Denver is headed this season. Bowlen needs asses in seats since he is clearly having money trouble.
Orton puts no asses in seats because no one wants to see an average QB playing on a below average team. I’ll say something that is true, Investco was pretty damn empty last season for several home games. People bought tickets, but there were tousands of no shows and games like the one vs the Rams were 25,000 fans short by halftime. Denver doesn’t have fans that will support the team no matter what. No franchise does. The fans will bail if we suck again in 2011 and Orton is out there throwing for 370 yards a game as we lose 12-38 to Detroit or the NY Jets.
"Well at least we picked a good year to suck" said Pat Bowlen after countersigning Von Miller's rookie contract.
by McGeorge on Aug 1, 2011 9:39 PM MDT reply actions 7 recs
The NFL and it's fans
are in a sad state affairs. It’s the most popular, most lucrative sport in the country and has accumulated millions of fair weather fans that lack the necessary knowledge of the game to understand how and why it works.
NFL games are turning into social events for upper middle class Americans and Corporate Cronies that are more interested in “what side” to bring or closing a million dollar deal then actually watching and understanding the game and it’s players.
On the flip side, it’s a bidness to the players and most want to collect their pay and be on their way. Most don’t care about the game, most don’t care about its fans and most don’t care about the region of the country that they live in.
Wins should be the most important thing and should be the reason for behinds being in the bleacher in the first place. That’s the bottom line, so it really shouldn’t matter if Orton is starting at QB in Denver this year or for the next five years as long as the Broncos are winning. Right?
It’s EFX’s responsibility to surround the starting QB with a sold offense and defense, if they do that and Orton is the starter then the Broncos will be a much better “team” then the past two years and will win more games then the past two years, which will make all of the fans more willing to put their behinds in the bleachers.
by KoloradoKaos on Aug 2, 2011 8:47 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Like it or not, that is our society. With all of the instant information and wanting everything now, teams have a much smaller window of holding fan’s attention.
I know that Bowlen wants to win; however, this is his business first. If the team is not going to make the playoffs with Orton, then fans will stop showing up, stop buying beer and food and paying for parking. Tebow will at least keep the interest a little longer and will make Bowlen $$.
Before last year, I don’t remember the last time that I missed watching a Broncos game. I plan my entire fall around Broncos games. However, near the mid to end of last season, I didn’t watch 2 games. When Tebow came in, I was immediately drawn back.
I hate to admit it, but I (and most other fans) are like our society. We need to have instant results and need to be entertained. If we are not in a playoff hunt with Orton, then what’s the point of starting him?
+1
On the sentiment. This is a game after all.
You can be dumb... that's ok! There are many dumb people.
You can be an a$$hole... that's ok! There are many of these as well.
Unfortunately you cannot be both...
Ok... prove me wrong.
We need to have instant results and need to be entertained.
i agree with you dan, but not so much on the criticism of society—at least in regard to this particular topic. football IS entertainment. period. there’s absolutely no purpose for it unless it serves to entertain, so i don’t think fans who expect entertainment from an entertainment function should be thought of as spoiled or demanding—they’re just expecting a fair trade for their time and money. watching any game for entertainment is a minor gamble—it’s not always going to work out. however, at some point last year, many broncos fans decided it wasn’t even worth that minor gamble—the broncs were an overloaded deck favoring suckiness. it wasn’t about instant results or being over demanding as much as just people deciding to use hard earned leisure time and dollars on skiing or movies instead of frustration and boredom.
I agree with you
about our society, Pat Bowlen and how exciting Tebow is (could be) but the Broncos will win more games with Orton as the starter this year and perhaps several years down the road. Tebow is not ready face NFL defenses on a weekly basis now that they have film on him. He just isn’t and may never be.
Wins are exiting and will bring the fans back, keep their attention and open their wallets no matter who the starting QB is.
So better win 6 games with Orton or 4 games with Tebow...because the 4 iw WAY more valuable if we are developing the future starter of the team.
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Is it Free Agency yet? Wake me up when it starts!
I would rather see the best team take field
because I just paid $100 for nosebleed seats. And other fans paid much more for better seats in this economy. I would rather see Orton play “boring” football and win 2 more games then watch Tebow make mistakes and come up just short. Also, say Tebow does start and goes 4-12. Do you think the fans in Denver will tolerate that? They will boo him all the way back to Jacksonville. Its better that he waits another year til we build a better team for him that will make up for his mistakes. If he’s the real McCoy then he will still have all the potential when he’s ready for the role.
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
Nope...I actually dont think they would. They are going to boo Orton regardless.
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Is it Free Agency yet? Wake me up when it starts!
That's a future I'd rather not live in
Mediocrity is like a lollipop: lick it once and you'll suck forever.
Yep...will be a future I wont be following...
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Is it Free Agency yet? Wake me up when it starts!
I think it’s EFX’s job to surround the team with a good QB. IF that is Orton, great, if not…. Get him out of here.
I want my GM to find the best QB possible and build around him. I don’t want EFX to find the best “other” players and build around a so-so QB. That is bass-awkards and requires a lot more draft hits, good FA signings and luck. Lots of and lots of luck.
"Well at least we picked a good year to suck" said Pat Bowlen after countersigning Von Miller's rookie contract.
This is a great point and you perfectly summed up an underlying point
Kyle Orton needs to get better with the rest of the team. The whole unit needs to improve. We all know that with a better run game Orton’s passing stats will probably diminish from last year. Thus his challenge to is to become better at what we had problems with in the past… and that is his ability to lead a team to a score in the redzone.
If Orton can become that QB, well, I think as Broncos we are in much better shape than perhaps we realize. But if he can’t there’s no reason for us to extend his already expensive contract. This is the year, if he starts, for him to be something that he wasn’t able to be last year and that is deadly in the redzone.
GB2
Tulogit to quit.
With a better run game
Ortons pass stats change. Not so many thrown but more caught due to the defense honoring the run. We have seen Orton has the ability to step up. improve the team around him and you improve our game.
Doing so does not mean that you are building a team around a mediocre QB. It could mean you are building a good team and right now QB is not your focus. Even if we have a superstar QB ready, we will still complain if the safeties get burned, or if the line doesn’t block. We still want the best players we can get. Do you have to have the QB you want in place before you can to the rest?
Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
Nope, you definitely don't have to have the QB you want in place
But Orton does not view himself as a stopgap QB. He wants to be franchise. He’s getting paid like it. He needs to play franchise. If we are willing to settle this year for just a good QB (I truly hope he isn’t mediocre) then the question has to be asked… could his money be used elsewhere and could another QB do the job in his stead for far less money.
This is why I don’t get the Bengals. They have a franchise QB nearing the end of his career. He doesn’t exactly play like he used to, and he is going to make 11.5 million dollars. He’s in the way. His contract is a problem. But keeping him on the team is going to hurt their rebuilding process.
If Kyle Orton plays like many people here suggest he is capable of, we’ll be just fine. He’ll earn his money and most likely get an extension. But the sentiment around the league seems to be (and even in the Broncos FO) that’s not the expectation, he won’t earn his extension, and he’ll be had on the cheap. In this scenario, Broncos lose lose.
GB2
Tulogit to quit.
The chances of Orton playing well this year
are a heck of a lot better than Tebow playing well this year, that’s for sure. And I hope and “pray” that we can all at the very least agree on this point. In fact the chances of Orton playing better then Tebow for the next few years in a very good possibility and shouldn’t be taken lightly.
What’s getting over looked in this QB discussion and Orton’s performance is what a poor team the Broncos were and how poor the coaching staff and front office was last year. Not to mention how disgruntled the team and fans were. That’s a lot for any QB to overcome let alone perform well.
This year should be a better indicator of what Orton is capable of doing on a better team but having said that, is it even fair for this to be a make or break year for Orton? Not really. This is after all a new coaching staff in many ways with a different system in many ways and several new players so what should we really expect from Orton in 2011? If he’s even here that is.
by KoloradoKaos on Aug 3, 2011 9:18 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
So question for you KK
Let’s say Orton somehow starts the entire year (unlikely to the point of impossibility), and due to the changes in the offensive philosophy, plods along his very middling career averages in completion pct, TD %, etc, but sees his overall numbers decrease significantly due to not throwing 40 times per game. Now you have a guy who still ranks just middle of the pack in efficiency as he always has, and no longer even has the gaudy yardage stats that come from a pass-happy offense. Even if the team goes 9-7 due to the upgraded defense and running game, does that make Orton a better QB and worthy of an extension?
Mediocrity is like a lollipop: lick it once and you'll suck forever.
Yes
because as clearly stated by the anit orton crowd. A QB is judged on his win loss record and in your scenario Orton has doubled his wins.
Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
Well hold on a sec
First of all, I don’t think you really believe a QB is judged on his W/L record due to everything you’ve been saying. I hear you saying you are willing to hold off judgment on Orton’s W/L record due to the circumstances of this season. Which is fine and I totally get that, but after spending so much time downplaying his W/L record it doesn’t make sense to all the sudden make it the one factor that nets him an extention.
It’s one thing to want Orton to be good enough to prove his critics wrong. There’s not really anything wrong with that. But if success for Orton is proving his critics wrong by winning games it’s the wrong battle to fight. Kyle Orton should be success shouldn’t be up to the point where it proves his critics wrong and then, boom, he’s good to go.
In your mind Sean, what does Orton need to do to be successful? If it is what he did last year, if his status quo is good enough, that’s where we disagree. But if you think, like I do, that he needs to be better himself (nothing to do with Tebow at all) what should those expectations be?
GB2
Tulogit to quit.
dammit
forgot to hit the sarcasm button again ;/
Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
depends on what else is available...
If TT or BQ is looking like he can perform similarly or better, probably not (at least not for more than backup money).
If there is a different FA QB that can perform similarly for cheaper? no… you sign that other guy instead.
But if neither of those other cases are true, why wouldn’t we resign Orton?
I agree with the caller from Pa.
of course Orton’s numbers will decrease but so should the pressure on him due to a better running game, better defense, better coaching staff and better GM.
9-7 would be a vast improvement over last year and remember that this is Orton’s first year with this staff and new players so logic would tell us that he and the team should only get better in 2012 and beyond.
I get Tim Tebow. I get his intangibles. I get the excitement. I get how attractive he is to the fan base but he’s not ready for NFL defenses right now. What this franchise and fan base doesn’t need is sexy and outspoken. What this franchise and fan base does need right now are wins and Orton can lead the team to more of those then Tebow can. Tim Tebow is not ready like John Elway and Philip Rivers were coming out of college.
Now if Quinn was the starting QB in Denver then we might have a discussion and or argument but Orton is best for the Broncos in 2011 and possibly beyond.
Look at Carson Palmer and Aaron Rogers. Both sat for years and both were much more pro ready then Tim Tebow coming out of college and both turned out fine.
by KoloradoKaos on Aug 3, 2011 11:59 AM MDT up reply actions
I dont agree at all...and never will,
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Is it Free Agency yet? Wake me up when it starts!
could his money be used elsewhere and could another QB do the job in his stead for far less money.
Yes, and I am in favor of a value trade.
Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
We've seen Orton step up? When? Once in his career?
Please give me an example of how he has raised the level of his teammates like Tebow did during the final three games. I’m not talking about Tebow’s personal stats – I’m talking about how the team rallied around him the way Orton was never able to accomplish.
Mediocrity is like a lollipop: lick it once and you'll suck forever.
I'm not talking about the team rallying
There is one clear memory in my head but I still can’t remember the game. Orton is chased around behind the line of scrimage, he breaks to the sideline and just as he is getting there throws the ball. It a long arc down the sideline and is caught for a long TD. Whistle blows and it is halftime. That is a clutch play. That is stepping up.
Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
That is a clutch play...
The only one in 2 years…
The game you are talking about is Baltimore from 2010...
And we lost that game.
Actually, Kyle had 2 last minute touchdowns that game. One in the second qtr and one in the 4th qtr.
Unfortunately, we didn’t do crap for the rest of the game and managed a measely 17 points that game. Lost 31-17.
That is not to say that it was KO’s fault. We managed 13 whole rushing yards that game. This game is EXACTLY why you should pay no attention to QB rating. KO was 104 that day. we were never in the game.
nice miner
As soon as I read that I remember it happened twice. That is the story of last season.
What it does show is that Kyle can make good plays and we sucked. Neither is completely or always true, but things are going to be better this year.
Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
Yep...he make good plays when NOTHING is on the line...when we need a play, he wont come thru. Thats Kyle Orton!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Is it Free Agency yet? Wake me up when it starts!
by boydy2669 on Aug 4, 2011 10:46 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Sad...but true
Kyle may be the best Training Camp, non-contact QB in the league.
On his tombstone, they will write…
“Here lies Kyle Orton…He was not the problem.”
Said it before, still believe it.
KO is good enough to win the SB on a team like New England or Philly. And he is bad enough to lead Denver to another 4-12.
When have we seen Orton step up and improve the team..when...because he was the QB leader when we just got our worse record in over 20 years...thats NOT improving the team!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Is it Free Agency yet? Wake me up when it starts!
This is a team sport
that requires a balance of quality players on both sides of the ball and at every position to win games and championships.
Having lived through the 1980’s with Dan Reeves and John Elway I’m surprised that you still believe that building a so-so team around a great QB is the answer because it never has been and never will be.
Sorry to hijack this question, but I hate this terminology
Of some are “Orton guys” and some are “Tebow guys”. I’m a “Broncos guy” – I’m mostly interested in our franchise being the best in the NFL. I personally don’t believe we can be that franchise with Orton at the helm. I wish more people could take a step back from the Orton/Tebow thing and focus on what can make our team a Super Bowl winner in a couple years. Tebow might not be that guy (we don’t know yet), but Orton REALLY isn’t that guy, and that’s that.
He's a Broncos guy
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
Follow me on Twitter @MHR_KaptainKirk
I’m not pro or anti anyone in Denver. Well I was anti Travis Henry and McD, but they were the enemy within.
I’ll gladly cheer for Orton if he plays well enough to deserve it. If he finds ways to get us TDs instead of FGs. If he can’t get more than the meager 20 pts per game Denver was putting up with his as QB last year, get him the F out of there.
"Well at least we picked a good year to suck" said Pat Bowlen after countersigning Von Miller's rookie contract.
I was at the Rams game and stayed the whole time
Im a Broncos fan thick and thin baby!!!!!!!!!!!
No save ammunition all bullets in gun now- Bruce Campbell
Stand up straight a man looks more confident when he is erect- Taj
I don't always drink and drive, but when I do, I prefer Dos Equis- BroncoPH
BRONCOS 4 LIFE
Good for you Taylor
I wonder how many can say that or can say that they stayed for the entire Raiders game?
by KoloradoKaos on Aug 2, 2011 11:20 AM MDT up reply actions
I stayed the WHOLE Rams game...my 6 year old sons first game....it was a VERY empty stand....luckily the booing for McD overcame the crowds displeasure for the teams performance....
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Is it Free Agency yet? Wake me up when it starts!
I booed McD just like the crowd
i had high hopes for that guy :(
No save ammunition all bullets in gun now- Bruce Campbell
Stand up straight a man looks more confident when he is erect- Taj
I don't always drink and drive, but when I do, I prefer Dos Equis- BroncoPH
BRONCOS 4 LIFE
Tell your sun
that the warm breeze of hope has forced the cold cloud of despair to the mid-west and the that the Bright Blue light of promise once again shines brightly on the Denver Broncos. I’m sorry that he had to go through that at such a young age.
Better game days are ahead for him and the team. Not every game that he goes to will be polluted with darkness and disgruntled fans. Frowns and four letter words.
Game day can and will be fun again. With high-fives for the little guy, big points for the score board, too much sugar, happy friendly faces and strangers putting their personal beliefs aside for one single day in order to come together and cheer for our Denver Broncos .
If I remember correctly, the wager was for a pint of Guinness. Or was it a four pack of Guinness and a four pack of Bass? Either way, I’m getting thirsty.
Happy to give that 2 you anyway my friend....but lets see how it plays out!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Is it Free Agency yet? Wake me up when it starts!
I rec'd this and agree
but would the fans be anymore likely to show up for a team losing 6-45 to Detroit, where the unready QB throws 4 picks and for 200 yards (rather than 370?)…. sure maybe for a game or 3 if they think he’s the “savior”… but not long-term.
The team has to perform well for the fans to come…. I don’t care who the QB is, as long as they give the team the best chance to win.
I agree. I’m not married to Tebow as our QB. He is fun to watch, but if he can’t get his team into the end-zone, I’ll want to run him out of town too.
We need offensive players that know the meaning of offense… to score TDs, not FGs.
If Orton can figure that out this season, I’ll be fully supportive. He hasn’t in his two years here.
"Well at least we picked a good year to suck" said Pat Bowlen after countersigning Von Miller's rookie contract.
Well said
You’ve managed to put into writing the thoughts that have been going around in my head about the QB situation, but haven’t been able to formulate.
Highly rec’d.
by SFV Bronco Fan on Aug 1, 2011 9:47 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
The Miami crowd cheers for Orton.
Tonight on Late Hits (Sirius NFL)….they had a report and a caller that backed it up…that after an hour of practice, apparantly in front of about 10,000 people at a stadium practice for the fans, the whole crowd started chanting “We Want Orton, We Want Orton”. The caller said he’d never seen anything like it.
I wonder if a week or so into training camps they won’t be willing to actually overpay for Orton. But, will we still want to let him go?
Broncos forever.....bring on the season.
I saw that
If Orton thinks he’s unwelcome, imagine what Henne and Moore must be feeling right now. That’s ridiculous.
GB2
Tulogit to quit.
by BroncoPH on Aug 2, 2011 12:32 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Great Questions J-Dog
Will the Fins realize how bad their QB’s are a week into camp? (Henne is a serviceable QB on an average team, which is not a good combination).
Will the Broncos realize how bad their backups are a week into camp and hold onto Orton for at least another year?
Back ups bad???? Ok man, whatever floats your boat!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Is it Free Agency yet? Wake me up when it starts!
Bad meaning good?
II should have said how un-prepared their backups are.
Tim Tebow is not bad at all, just not as NFL ready as Orton…. or Quinn for that matter. I just don’t think that Quinn can handle the damn pressure like Tebow. Tim Tebow has liquid Argon coursing through his veins. Not to mention tough as a diamond and Strong as an Ox. Believe it or not I’m not even reaching for the sarcasm button here. I really do admire the guy and the football player. I’m not all that good with computers. Is there really a sarcasm button on this button board?
Quinn runs around like a 10 year old about to piss in his pants while waiting for the mens room to open at the last truck stop before Durango.
This post is dead on.
You can close the book on this topic for the rest of the preseason. There is nothing else that needs to be said.
Never let them see you bleed.
by the_prodigal_fan on Aug 1, 2011 9:53 PM MDT reply actions 2 recs
Nail. Head.
Learn how to dominate your league through a solid fantasy football draft tiers. A shameless plug for a fellow Broncomaniac!
by Tim Lynch on Aug 1, 2011 10:10 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Great post
Rec’d – I couldn’t agree more.
The “…Did you know that the Broncos don’t even sell a Kyle Orton jersey in their Dove Valley pro-shop?..” is really odd. I don’t know if that is still true but I can confirm it was true on day one of TC, I was there. (not that I wanted one)
When you can’t buy a jersey or t-shirt of the starting QB in the official team shop and there are 4 rows of jerseys for the QB on the 2nd/3rd team something is definitely wrong in Denver.
I was there on Saturday and to be honest I didn’t even notice anything was off until my buddy pointed out that there was a row of two different kinds of Tebow jerseys and onesies (I do love onesies)… but nothing with #8. It was weird.
Maybe they just sold out??
GB2
Tulogit to quit.
Ph strikes again!
All I can say to that is “very well done sir” rec’d of course
"as in football so in life"
"Look good, play good, play good, pay good, pay good, eat good, eat good, live good, live good, die good".........Primetime
Great post
Rec’d for saying what many were thinking, but couldn’t be said in such great writing.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
I appreciate that Max. You are a great critic and I know you call it like you see it. Means a lot.
GB2
Tulogit to quit.
No problem
Logic always wins through, and you explained yourself perfectly. Great, great post.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Yep. One of the best posts I have read. kudos my man!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Is it Free Agency yet? Wake me up when it starts!
well said.....
Jerry Jones is Al Davis with a smile!
CHICAGO...Where Quaterbacks' careers go to die!
Why would anyone want to live in Oakland?
Pressure
First let me mention that this is a great write up and for me to actually post, you have grabbed me! Thank you!
The thing I see in Orton is the fact that he can not take pressure. When I say pressure it comes in many forms. From a defender bearing down on him, to the clock ticking down in the forth quarter and everything in-between. It became very obvious when we were 6-0 two seasons ago and the Baltimore Ravens exposed him. I also see that as a reason for the dink and dunk plays that have made this offence so boring to watch. As I will not look up the stats right now, I am pretty sure you will find that his 3rd down stats and red zone stats are not close to his passing yard stats! I DO know that his 4th QTR stats with a chance to come back fall to a miserable 1 win and 8 losses.
While I do appreciate him coming in and holding down the fort, I do think that if we want to win games in the National Football League, we have to have someone that is not going to fold when the going gets tough!
ug makes too much sense. I'm started to feel screwed @ QB again.
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. DA
by Whidbey Bronco on Aug 1, 2011 11:10 PM MDT up reply actions
The Broncos were bad
the last two years, not only as a team but as an organization which put unnecessary pressure on Orton, those points seem to be conveniently left out of these discussions and it’s not fair. Kyle Orton is an above average NFL QB and the Broncos could win a lot of games with him long term if the FO can surround him with a solid defense and offense.
It appears the FO is back on the right track to doing that so it’ll be an exciting year even if Orton is the starting QB this year. We all know that he can make all the throws and was putting up good numbers before getting injured last year (behind a very young and very average O-Line BTW), just imagine what he can do if the Broncos have a respectable running game and their defense can keep them off the field for more of the game.
With Orton on the team, there is no reason to endure the growing pains of Tim Tebow as the starter. Now if Quinn was the current starter then yes, there might be an argument to start Tebow for better or worse.
by KoloradoKaos on Aug 2, 2011 9:13 AM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
well said KK
Lets not throw away the good we have until we either get something in return (trade value) or have something better (TT beating out Orton).
You mean throw away the thoroughly average.....its just there are some terrible QB's in the NFL at the moment...the standard has dropped.
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Is it Free Agency yet? Wake me up when it starts!
I actually disagree
… but you have a potential point. Did Orton just rate “above average” because the average sucked… sure, its possible… its hard to compare across time periods, as rules change, defenses differ in quality, etc.
But then think about the QBs in the league these days
3 sure-fire HOFers – Manning, Brady, Roethlisberger
4+ really amazing QBs that can put up MVP stats any given year – Rodgers, Rivers, Brees, Vick
A bunch of young, really high potential, and occassionally high performing guys – Ryan, Freeman, Cutler, Flacco, Cassell, Sanchez
A solid set of veterans: Romo, McNabb, Hasselbeck, Eli, Collins, Garrard, etc.
And then some really young high potential guys that could turn into nothing, but have promise: Bradford, TT, etc…
Just the year before in 2009 you had 2 other surefire HOFers performing well (Farve, Warner).
I actually think it is a golden era of QBs…. I’d say there are maybe 20 QBs I could see performing well enough to take their teams to the SB with decent teams around them, including Orton, and I’m not talking about a historically great DEF like 00Balt or 86Chi… just top 10 DEF and a good running game so that the team overall is very good.
Not Fair
Look, I like what I see in Tim Tebow…the passion, the guts, the all-or-nothing attitude. It’s for those reasons that I want to see him lead the Broncos. Someday. But the honest truth is that Tebow is still not ready to be a pro QB. He still only has 3 starts under his belt, and his progressions / reads have not gotten any better this off-season due to the lockout.
I also agree that Orton leaves some to be desired. As said above, Orton is not mobile and has a tendency to panic under pressure, locking onto either his primary read or looks for the short backdoor crossing route. But here’s the thing about football….IT’S A TEAM GAME. How can you sit there and write ‘Orton is only 4-12’ when we had the WORST defense in the league last year AND the 26th ranked rush attack? The truth is that Orton was in a ton of long down and distance situations last year. Defenses learned last season that with our weak / rookie OLs and non-existent running game, they could effectively bring blitz pressure and knock Orton off balance. Futher, the Broncos…as a team….were pathetic in the red zone because no one respected the run, allowing teams to drop into zone coverage and effectively shut down the constant 3-wide set.
Orton, to his credit, is a game manager. Yeah, I know….not sexy. But he IS going to take care of the ball and make the most of what he’s given. Orton was not the problem last season, and a more complete team is going to win more games than the 2010 Broncos. In that sense, Tebow is a long way behind. He will make mistakes and have crucial turnovers as he learns the intricacies of pro defenses. In that sense, it is much better to have Orton this year as we are rebuilding and have Tebow next year when the defense and run game can hopefully withstand the mistakes that he will no doubt make.
Give Orton his props. Despite his flaws, he is the best chance for the Broncos to win this season as we repair and recover from the damage of McD.
by Linmoo on Aug 1, 2011 11:47 PM MDT reply actions 3 recs
Linmoo I think everything you say is valid
Orton was one of the least of our problems last year… but he was still a problem. We’ve heard the stats a hundred times. Red Zone efficiency, fourth quarter efficiency, clutch play, performing under pressure. I won’t rehash that.
Orton deserves his props. He deserves his credit for his passing yards. The guy was asked to throw the ball 40 times a game. If football were all about stats, well, perhaps we were a statistically good team. The only stat that matters says we weren’t but that’s a complicated stat. Unfortunately, and like you mention, there is so much more going on than just QB play… and this is where my argument picks up.
If Kyle remains a Bronco I won’t wish him ill. I’ll want him to win. But if what you say is true, if the rest of our team is so bad, you have to at least acknowledge that Kyle Orton, for as good as he has been to us, is not the single key for our immediate success. We need many other parts. So now it becomes a question of value. Kyle Orton fills one need. QB. But what if trading him filled three other needs and his replacement, though not as good, was adequate enough. Not as good, but adequate. Is that something you’d have to consider? Can you sacrifice skill at one position if it means you upgrade skill at two or three more?
My argument would be yes. If a team is rebuilding, absolutely yes.
GB2
Tulogit to quit.
No disagreement here
Don’t get me wrong….trading Orton for the right value is the best possible scenario here. IMO, trading Orton will come with the short term downside of having a QB learn from a steep curve throughout this season. If the longterm gains to the team warrant, no player is untouchable (see: Jay Cutler, although we wound up squandering much of those draft picks.)
I’m not sure how closely you follow baseball, or if you are a Rockies fan, but this Orton situation is similar to the recent Ubaldo trade. Even if we are a better team in our W-L ratio next season, it’s not hard to believe that Orton, or whoever is at QB, won’t have the same opportunity as last season to shine. Fox runs a much less “exciting” offense, if you will.
Thus, Orton could come out next year, win more games, and have played “worse” statistically. If his value is truly in his stats, there’s a strong possibility he’s at his peak value right now. Just like Jimenez was at his peak value with the Rockies. He (Orton) is our best bargaining chip just like Ubaldo was for Colorado. If we keep him, well, he needs to progress with the rest of the team and be that QB we need.
A rebuilding team has little room for expensive stopgaps. If Orton is our starter, I hope he proves to be the man, because if he isn’t, that’s an unfortunate miss for our new FO.
GB2
Tulogit to quit.
Well, again to be fair, the new FO is dealing with an expensive contract and QB situation which they did not create (except for Xanders, his fingerprints are all over this). The combined factors of Orton’s current expensive, short-term contract AND the fact that the FA period came after the draft created a situation that made it very hard to move Orton for a fair value. And now that he’s got his roster bonus, it makes the value even worse for a trade. The only way to really gain leverage back now is to wait for the inevitable pre-season QB injury. But barring that scenario, I think we’re better served with him running the offense rather than a clipboard.
I'm with you, Linmoo!
Don’t want you to feel lonely, Linmoo. I agree. I have always liked Orton and hope he does really well this year for the Broncos. I have always liked Tebow and hope he becomes for the Broncos what he was in high school and college. Just because I am intrigued by Tebow doesn’t mean I am soured on Orton. I don’t agree with this statement by BroncoPH: "Everywhere I read and everything I hear people are rallying behind Kyle Orton… but nobody wants him or seems to really believes in him. It’s all over these boards. Even his supporters here say ‘Kyle Orton gives us the best chance to win but we’re still going to suck!’ " I’m an Orton supporter and I don’t think the Broncos will suck this year. I think the improvements in the running game and on defense will put the Broncos in the playoffs and Orton will be great in the red zone because defenses will have to respect the running game. The only reason more Orton supporters are not chiming in is because we are simply rolling our eyes at the Orton bashing folks.
If I can't have high expectations that succeed, I''d rather have high expectations and be disappointed than have low expectations and be resigned to losing.
by OrangeandBluesBros on Aug 2, 2011 7:17 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
BroncoPH
Forget Lindsay Jones, I’ll retweet you bud. Excellent article.
Follow me on Twitter: ballinnickcast
Xbox360 gamertag: SnipeMeHarder
Haha Nick, always got my back!
I should probably be a little more careful though. I actually really like Lindsay Jones. I think I need to pick on Kiszla more.
GB2
Tulogit to quit.
Dead on Post
"When I began playing the game, baseball was about as gentlemanly as a kick in the crotch." - Ty Cobb
Sorry,
But when you proclaimed our need to win at least 6 games this year, i laughed quite hard!
That was like Dr. Evil demanding, “one miiiillion dollars!”
Let’s demand at least a winning record damn it.
by about_to-get_winked! on Aug 2, 2011 1:02 AM MDT reply actions
I like the way you think. I forget who says it around here, but, 16-0 until we ain’t!
6 games is conservative, I know. But it is progress and I’ll take it.
My actual prediction this year is 9-7.
GB2
Tulogit to quit.
Vegas has the Broncos at 6 wins this year
That is a reasonable expectation for 2011. Anything more will be a bonus. It won’t prevent me from cheering or wanting for more though.
Well done Steve. I retweeted you buddy,
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
Follow me on Twitter @MHR_KaptainKirk
At this point
I am tired of caring who the qb is for the Broncos. I hope we can run the ball 60 times a game. Hell, punt on third down for all I care. I want to see some DEFENSE THIS YEAR G**DAMNIT! It won’t matter if Orton, Tebow, Brady, Manning, or Johnny Unitis is playing qb…..if that defense doesn’t pull it together then it just won’t matter. I want to see some FIGHT, some SNARL, some AGGRESION! I want to see some big fat guys bringing some PAIN.
…btw, great article! Very well written.
Punt on 3rd Down?
someone else has been watching lots of CFL games while waiting for the NFL lockout to end, good to know I’m not the only one!
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Aug 2, 2011 7:37 AM MDT up reply actions
Look at the numbers and how KO stacks up to other NFL QBs and ask yourself "Is this worth the money KO is making?"
http://www.milehighreport.com/2011/5/9/2161759/a-statistical-review-of-ortons-2010-season
Then ask yourself if the QB who generated these numbers is capable of improving on them?
Great post and rec’d PH
Ding Dong the lockout's dead
How can you take the numbers from last year and try and stack them up against anyone as there are only a handful of Qbs who have ever been in the situation that Orton was in .
Some of youre so out of touch with the NFL that you think that last year would be normal circumstances for a nfl qb to play in.
There simply is not any instances that I can think of where a team had
worst defense
bottom ranked running game
and a unbalanced passing game
and won anything or went anywhere . Thats probably because most teams go out of there way to at least have one of these things we had none .
Manning won with a bottom teir defense but he had the benefit of a balanced offense with Edgarrin james running the ball a receiving TE and a stable of receivers
Other teams have had weak passing games but strong running games and defenses
You rarely see a situation where tam has none of the above but thats what Orton was dealt
Enough Already!!!
First, let me say great article, very well written. Second, when are we going to be able to enjoy being Broncos fans again without having to polarize each other. First Shanny vs McD, then McD vs Cutler, McD vs Marshall, Orton vs Tebow. Will it ever end? What happened to us being able to agree or disagree without attacking each other? If I wanted that I would read the comments on the Denver Post, we are better than this. These issues have brought the site and our fan base down in the last few years.I will say that IMO the whole team blame concept is a shaky defense for a QB. They are expected to be the leaders of the team not just the offense, that is what a great QB does; they lead the team and if necessary they rally the troops on to victory. I refuse to accept good enough from my team or my QB, we are not the Lions! I refuse to also regurgitate all the Tebow vs Orton facts/opinions/stats that has been brought up two million times or cut and paste the same reply 5 times to one article. I will simply say this teams live and die by the win loss record, stats are meaningless except in fantasyland, period. With Cutler we had the highest rated offense between the 20’s and still failed the make the play offs. I care about winning not how many yards the offense gets or how many passes the QB completes that gets you home watching football in Feb! The last three games of last season was not the same TEAM that played the first 13 games they looked like they actually wanted to be there and thought they had a chance at winning. That tells me all I need to know, you may not agree but that is your right. No matter who gets the nod on opening day I will be cheering for them to succeed and win. It is not important for me to be right it is only important for the Bronco’s to win.
by FlaBRONCO on Aug 2, 2011 6:43 AM MDT reply actions 2 recs
anything less than 8 - 8 is not okay
I can live with it, but no…4 – 12 should never EVER happen again to my team. It is unacceptable. I don’t care if we start the water boy…win more games.
"Bombs dropping down overhead. Underground. It's instilled to want to live." -EV
by sadaraine on Aug 2, 2011 8:15 AM MDT reply actions 2 recs
This...
should be required reading for everyone who visits MHR.
One of the best articles I’ve EVER read on here. Great Job!
I'll go out on a limb and say that we WILL be 8-8 or better this year.
I don’t drink koolaid either. Changes to the D, and Doom being back + average schedule + offseason acquisitions +8 games at home……
If KO starts, I will cheer for my team.
If TT starts, I will cheer for my team.
If BQ starts, I will cheer for my team.
If AW starts, I will cheer for my team.
Once the preseason games are done, I will make my final prediction, but 8-8 or better will be in my sig from today on…
Rec’d by the way….this was the best post on this topic I have read.
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."
John Adams
by Broncotodd on Aug 2, 2011 8:25 AM MDT reply actions 2 recs
Does anybody realize John Elway had a 5-11 season?
Kyle Orton has had one (1) non-winning season since joining the NFL. ONE. In Chicago, he had a fairly decent defense (not a juggernaut, at least in 2008, as some think), good TEs, and a halfway respectable running game. Results? He came to Denver with a 21-12 record.
Even in 2009, when the doors were falling off, Kyle was 8-7.
Yes, we need wins out of Kyle. But he needs help out of the defense and running game. As BroncoPH said in his generally excellent analysis, Kyle will probably get that this year. Based on his history, I expect that Kyle will respond.
People talk about how meaningless Kyle’s stats were. In the scope of winning and losing, that is true. But when looking at the individual player, Kyle’s stats serve as a sign that he wasn’t the problem last year. Take a look at the defensive stats and the offensive rushing stats. Can we blame that on the quarterback?
If we are going to consider Kyle a loser because of his team’s losing season, let it not escape us that Champ Bailey was a member of that team, too.
-
BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!
by AZDynamics on Aug 2, 2011 8:46 AM MDT reply actions 2 recs
No but he’s the quarterback.
The same quarterback who had the game in his hands six times last season and faltered every single time.
Von Dooooooooom.
Fantastic post
This is the best summarizing of the Orton situation that I’ve seen so far.
Orton is a classic Greek tragedy...
In Greek tragedies individuals are often gifted individuals but find a way of being their own worst enemy. Orton has many qualities highly valued for NFL quarterbacks; smart, tough, good teammate and accurate passer. The problem for Orton, unlike other athletes that hurt themselves by getting in trouble with the law or having bad attitudes, Orton’s positives come packaged with deficient athletic skills.
Orton can not extend the play, at least not with any regular success. He also has poor pocket awareness compared to other elite athletes. One does not need to be Vick, but one needs to be like Brady who knows when to step up or slide to the side and at the right time to avoid a sack. Orton is either average at this, being generous, or below average. Case in point, last year there was a game where Zane was shifted to right tackle. In that game, a defensive end over committed to an up the field rush. It was a mistake, because it allows the tackle to push the rusher past the quarterback as he steps up. The problem? Orton did no step up and there was plenty of room to do so. The result was a sack which everyone wants to blame Zane for but which was 98% Orton’s fault. When a DE commits to that much up the filed rush, the QB must help the tackle but merely steeping up in the pocket.
Orton turned what should have been a mistake by the DE into a huge victory. Again, you don’t have to be Vick, but if you want to be an elite quarterback one must make his lineman better by knowing when and how to move in the pocket.
What other teams see is a flawed quarterback. Yes he has some great qualities, but he has some bad ones as well. If Orton could exend the play or slide in the pocket like Brady and Manning, the broncos would have no trouble with potential suitors. The broncos would also want to keep him :) And for the Kolb haters, he can extend the play and slide in the pocket. He is not Vick, but he is more athletic in these areas then Orton. This is why teams were more interested in him.
EVERYTHING IS WORNG WITH A GOOD ENOUGH MANTALITY
if you know you aren’t going to win games this season why keep a “superstar” player like Kyle Orton on the roster anyways?
No save ammunition all bullets in gun now- Bruce Campbell
Stand up straight a man looks more confident when he is erect- Taj
I don't always drink and drive, but when I do, I prefer Dos Equis- BroncoPH
BRONCOS 4 LIFE
wife
If you were tired of your wife, but the only woman you could attract was Rossanne Bar, would you leave your wife for her? Or would you settle for your wife?
hm... well,
how are roseanne’s ankles? can she get outside the pocket and avoid the sack? and will j-lo be a free agent again next year?…
by oxmouth on Aug 2, 2011 2:46 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Great Post PH
I could not have said it better myself. It has always been peculiar to me why Orton as decent as he has been and as people point out his winning record in the NFL. Why then was Orton always passed over by Rex Grossman until Rex got injured. Whatever the flaw that Orton has is seen by many many GM’s in the NFL, hence your great argument on why we cannot even get a 3rd for him. WHY???
In Chicago he never played a full season, i think he played 15 games twice, but was never proclaimed the starter unless Rex was injured. I was one who was happy that we got Orton when we traded Cutler because he was a winner in my eyes from just paying attention to the Chicago games(they were winning) and could never figure out why Chicago was always behind Rex. But, now after watching 2 years with him at the helm of our beloved Broncos, i can see why Chicago never proclaimed him as a starter and good ole Rex Grossman was a better QB to the regime in Chicagoland.
Now, is Tebow ready, mentally yes, physically 80% there, majority of fan base 100% behind Tebow Time. I myself would like to see what we have in Tebow this year and wish Orton well. But, if Orton is our starter then i have no choice in the matter but get behind Orton. Because i will cheer for our beloved broncos no matter what!!!
Great article
I don’t know how I just missed it until now.
Lemme give you a hand, PH, I can sum up your article in 4 words and an “=”:
Kyle Orton=Jon Kitna
Done. I heard this once a year ago and as Orton’s career progresses it just gets more and more true
If you reply to a comment/post/fanshot of mine, I will more likely then not respond to it, unless you come off like a d-bag.
well written, passionate advocacy
For a completelt illogical, unsupportable idea.
This post is a great and succinct post based on the utterly unsupportable assumption that Orton is a bad QB.
If you’ve made up your mind, against all scientifically rigorous evidence, that orton can’t lead a winning team, then this post makes sense. If you’ve already decided orton is a “choker” despite his 2009 QB rating of 109 in 4thQ, down by 7 situations, this makes sense.
If you’re willing to tank games and tell the lockerroom that politics are more important than performance, this makes sense.
If however, you think the whole narrative around orton is build on a dubious, small sample size perception… This is BS.
TT could well be better than Orton. Orton could be injury prone compared to other QBs. Orton probably also does need more that total suckitude around him to win.
But saying that means “something is wrong” with him is total crap, regardless if that is conventional wisdom (which is IMO conventional, but not wise).
by cjfarls on Aug 2, 2011 11:22 AM MDT via mobile reply actions 2 recs
I wouldn’t bring up his rating in similar situations for 2010 either…
Never lose hope, never lose heart
by plainview88 on Aug 2, 2011 11:27 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
yep, small sample sizes are highly variable
Sometimes they are good… sometimes bad. So why would we say the bad is more predictive than the good?
Smart people don’t… they look at the big sample and recognize that small samples are often misleading.
Perhaps you misunderstand me a little
I don’t assume Orton is any worse a QB than his record, or his stats show. Here’s where things get murky. You use words like “scientifically rigorous evidence”, which I assume is fancy talk for the stats prove something more. Football is not science. The only thing that matters, the only thing, at the end of the day is did we win, or did we lose? Everything else is scientific fluff that tries to fill in gaps. Those things help, but the more you break this sport down into numbers and stats you will begin to lose site whole picture.
This is what I think is happening with Orton, if you focus in on his stats you see a QB that seems good, maybe even better than good. But as you step back and look at the whole picture, well, things don’t seem so good.
CJ, I haven’t made up my mind about Orton. I know what I expect of him. But what really concerns me is that teams with serious, and I mean SERIOUS, QB needs are passing Orton right by for players like Matt Hasselbeck, Kevin Kolb, Matt Moore, and Vince Young. Can you explain that? Doesn’t that point to something being wrong? All reports seem to signal the Broncos don’t value him more than mid-draft range tender. How is this?
I’m not the one trying to focus in on one small sample size of Orton’s career. I’m trying to look at the player and his career as a whole, like a team GM might and I can’t understand why it seems the only people that find him valuable are stat geeks. Teams are saying one thing with their words and a completely different thing with their money. Any economist sees the danger in that situation.
CJ you are an economics guy right? I am too. I think just about everything boils down to economics. Isn’t one of the greatest indicators of truth, at least perceived truth, where people put their money? Money, the tangible reflection of personal wants. Would you agree that Orton is here because every other team finds him overvalued? How do you explain “scientifically rigorous evidence” not supporting his poor trade value?
If something isn’t wrong, what is going on? The words aren’t matching the money.
GB2
Tulogit to quit.
no, I don't think other teams passing on Orton means anything
AZ favoring Kolb, is the same as DEN favoring Orton… preferring upside than established goodness. Same thing with Young. Hasslebeck and Moore are cheaper, and thus their value per dollar maybe higher…. (also, Miami fans have expressed their voice on what they think of that calculation).
Those explanations are very simple, and don’t need some dubious explanation of something “being wrong” with Orton.
If Orton becomes a FA next year because we feel set with TT, he will be snapped up very quickly… but it isn’t surprising to me that his value to us as a hedge against TT not panning out is more than other teams might be willing to pay… particularly if they have a young upside guy and think Orton will be available for free next year.
So I say it is kinda the opposite of what you are saying… many folks look at his recent failures “in the clutch” and W-L record in DEN and say “look, he sucks”. I say if you step back and look at everything in context of the big picture, including robust analysis of stats, Orton looks like a good not great QB… that is good.
He won’t single-handedly lead a team to victory like Elway or Manning, but if you put a decent team around him you’ll win more than you lose… that’s actually pretty good as QBs go… it roughly matches his advanced stats, which put him somewhere between the 10th-15th best QB in the league.
TT may be better than that (I hope he is!)… if he is, he’ll beat out Orton. But until we have someone that can perform at that 10-15 level, I’m not so quick to discard what we have, because the chances are whoever we replace him with will be worse, not better.
See the new qb rating system... Orton is average (it is in the fanshots)
You can be dumb... that's ok! There are many dumb people.
You can be an a$$hole... that's ok! There are many of these as well.
Unfortunately you cannot be both...
Ok... prove me wrong.
okay, then it should be pretty easy for TT to beat him out.
but why is that stat predictive “true”, but other similar stats (e.g. FootballOutsider’s DVOA which had Orton rated 12th in both ’09 and ’10) false?
What evidence do you have that the new stat is more predictive than other statistical systems?
Don’t get me wrong, I’m really excited about the new QB rating… it sounds very similar to DVOA or to the EPV stat folks were messing with here. Should be a great thing to analyze going forward, to see how it compares to other advanced stat efforts… Obviously QB rating as traditionally calculated leaves much to be desired. But calling the new stat the end all, be all definitive truth now may be a tad premature.
You kind of pointed out what concerns me
If Kyle Orton throughout his whole career is just good, and we are paying him 8.5 million dollars to be just good, we are settling for good enough. Orton wants to sign with a team for an extended contract to be their starter. Obviously this is what any QB wants. Perhaps what is wrong with Kyle Orton in the eyes of GM’s around the league is just that, if you take into account his entire body of work, if you look at the whole of Kyle Orton, he’s just…. good. Who wants to bank their team’s future on that?
Unfortunately good doesn’t win Superbowls. Our Broncos, even with our best defenses, couldn’t win Superbowls without the great Elway. Orton will never be like Elway, but he does need to take that next step forward. He needs to be pushing himself to get out of just being good. Orton needs to try and be great. If he can show us flashes of that this year, he’ll have won me over.
My concern is, if the classic adage “You can’t teach an old dog new tricks” is being used to describe Tebow and his skillsets, how much more true must it be for a 6 year vet? Orton needs some new tricks.
GB2
Tulogit to quit.
Sure good wins SBs... I can name lots
hell, with the right team around them, BAD QBs can win SBs (See Dilfer, Trent). So can average (see Johnson, Brad).
Brady and Roethlisberger weren’t great QBs when they won their first SBs… they were good (and I’d argue Roethlisberger still is more at the top-end of good rather than great, but 3 rings make him a HOFer). Eli is good, but not great, and has a ring.
Good and/or average QBs go to the SB all the time, and then it is simply 1 game that can go eitherway (a.k.a. any given Sunday)…. e.g. Grossman, Hasselbeck, Collins, McNabb, Delhomme, etc… and this is just the past decade!
So sure, Orton isn’t gonna a be Manning or Elway that can singlehandedly make his team a contender any given year… but he absolutely is “good enough” that he won’t hold back an otherwise good team. Why would we throw that away before we knew we had something equivelent or better?
note, that doesn't mean we don't keep looking for great
If TT can be great, I’m all for it. I hope he beats out Orton, and I think that is distinctly possible. Orton also has a history of being a bit fragile, andTT has some interesting skills for some package plays, so I’m guessing TT will get his shots whether he beats him out this year or not. TT will get plenty of coaching, and have lots of opportunity to show he should be the man.
But if TT can’t at least be that ~10th-15th ranked guy like Orton is, we may resign Orton and then continue to look for high-upside guys in the draft that might be able to improve the position. You always want to improve your team, and if there is a chance to improve the most important position on the team, I’m all for taking it…. but throwing valueable assets away for nothing seems like a poor bet for the long-term success of the franchise.
oops
meant to be reply to cj. as in another eh QB who won a SB.
Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
oh ya, if you go backwards there are MANY more
I limited my post to this decade… figured it made my point.
SPOT ON-!
I’ve been saying this for a long time. Especially since FA started and you are SPOT ON-!
Its funny how fans are seen by some that we don’t know that much about football.
But even the least educated fan can see the obvious. And its clearly obvious that Kyle Orton
is not wanted by any other NFL team. That speaks VOLUMES-!!
Exactly how did we better our defense?
Or our rushing game exactly? Yes we got a defensive oriented coach who focuses on the run more but what did we do to get better? We get Doom back, instant upgrade, we get Von Miller hopeful instant upgrade, we drafted D heavy but they are rookies. We addressed the DL by putting the same pieces in place and bringing in guys who out of college been way better than we are. We are replacing people like Jarvis Moss with people like Jarvis Moss, not an upgrade. Willis is not an answer for the running game, the only way our running game improves is if our young line benefits from this new scheme and No-Show Moreno gets back to his college form.
I don’t disagree that we have gotten a better coach and should be better this year because of it. I agree that KO should win or GTFO, but I agree more that we should just cut our ties and stop wasting our time. A 5th rounder? Great, it’s 8 mil off the books and an end of controversy. Even if he has an all star year he is just going to go somewhere else next season. Let Tebow have his chance and if he truly can’t cut it we will be in the sweepstakes for Andrew Luck…
I don’t know why nobody wants Orton, had we not drafted Tebow I would take him as our starting QB and not pine for anyone else. The fact of the matter is I’m sick of stop gap QBs in Denver, find our franchise QB already.
I think in a few ways you answered your own questions
Von Miller and Dumerville are instant upgrades on D, especially in an area where we were just miserable last year… the pass rush. I think, I can’t prove obviously, that Dumerville alone would have netted us at least one more win had he played. We are bringing back a healthier defense and I would expect it do be better. If you have the #2 overall draft pick, and you pick defense, and your defense doesn’t improve… that’s just unacceptable.
As to the running game, the Broncos will live and die by it it sounds like. We will run the ball and we will continue to run the ball until we are good at it. McDaniel’s eventually just abandoned the run and it’s hard to accumulate stats when you don’t even try. John Fox will try. Remember, 3rd and 8 is still a running down to John Fox.
GB2
Tulogit to quit.
agree completely
I also think people underestimate how much the off-field stuff impacted the team last year.
We had a tough early schedule and lost a number of close games against good teams early in the season… its very conceivable that some semblance of a passrush (Doom and good coaching) could have changed those outcomes.
Then, we had the whole spygate2 debacle, and in combination with a losing record, the fans totally turned on the team, coach, etc. At that point the team collapsed, losing badly to bad teams. But I think that had as much to do with a poisonous team atmosphere as it did lack of talent.
Running game hopefully will look like it did the last 6 games (pretty good actually), vs. what it did the first 10… given those last 6 coincided with the line finally getting healthy and the rookies getting some experience, I think that is a good, but not surefire expectation. Plus Moreno is the same, but the RB depth of McGahee/White is likely better than Buckhalter/Ball.
by cjfarls on Aug 2, 2011 3:20 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Preach on!
Couldn’t have said it better – rec’d
"You cocky cock! You'll pay for your crimes against humanity!"
"He's like a man with a fork in a world of soup."
by CraftyB on Aug 2, 2011 1:13 PM MDT via mobile reply actions
One other thing...
Did it seem to anyone else last season that KO was more upset about being benched than his team getting the crap kicked out of it week after week? ‘Cus bothered the hell out of me – QB is too important a position to fill w/a paycheck player, and that’s how Orton’s always struck me: a guy who cares more about his stats & starter status than W/L.
"You cocky cock! You'll pay for your crimes against humanity!"
"He's like a man with a fork in a world of soup."
by CraftyB on Aug 2, 2011 1:22 PM MDT via mobile reply actions
It was MILE HIGH TIME,
That you posted this one!
Thanx a bunch, for saying what I have been so frustrated about for so long!
The simple fact that their is a group here who continue to look at our current situation, and think that KO is “This Years Answer” for our team simply blows my mind!
There is nothing that he has done to date that leads me to believe that!
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
Nice Post PH!
There is such a love affair with TT the player and the person and it is growing exponentially. Those of you who think KO and TT can have more of the same as last year and everything will be rosie, you are sorely mistaken. IMO one has to go.
well put, clompy. it’s kind of a disaster waiting to happen and it’ll be interesting to see how Elfoxx handles this going forward. Fairly or unfairly, Orton’s going in on a leash about the length of a twist-tie. if dude doesn’t look good in the first regular season game— or the second—things get ugly before the box score’s printed. heck, most football columnists already have that article written and sitting in their filing cabinet. then you’ve got the idea floating around about having orton play between the 20s and tebow taking over inside. we’ll see, but imo that’s just got all kinds of bad idea on it from every angle. i don’t know how this pans out but if you like soap operas and football you’ve found a home.
exactomoondo.
on another note, I know tebow spent countless hours before his pro-day working with a QB guru, I havent heard anything about his off-season QB training. I dont doubt he is in tip-top physical condition, but i am wondering considering his rough start at TC…..
i know...
i’m going to TC next week and i’m anxious to see if tebow’s really that far behind. seems like he just needed to come in with his play somewhere remotely in kyle’s ballpark and they’d give him the nod, but that he’s not even close. seems odd if he’s really put all that time and training in like all the reports said. to be fair though, i guess no one should expect picture perfect aesthetics from tim’s game either…
I agree
I totally agree with this. Orton HAS to show improvement (a LOT of it in my opinion to justify $9 million for the year) and be on a SHORT leash if he starts. I’ve watched a bunch of last years games on NFL Rewind and actually I thought Orton was better than what I saw. My memory didn’t match up. Look he DID get a lot of yards on some well thrown balls and a lot of circus catches from Lloyd and then a lot of garbage time. There were whole segments of games where the ball wasn’t run at all. Also, I saw a LOT more bad misses from him than I remember. He played pretty much like Sam Bradford did. Sam was a ROOKIE. Bottom line, not trying to bash Orton. But I really don’t believe he’s as good as many would like to think. I believe that’s also why there was no line forming to get him- teams have seen the tape.
That’s why I think the team should go forward with Tebow. Orton’s a good solid backup just in case Tebow totally crashes and burns. I don’t believe that will happen though. Too many reasons, primary being how the whole team livened up when he took over last year. Right now the Broncos are in flux. You had a good number of players making pro-Tebow comments and gearing up for him as the starter and then…uh-oh…Orton’s back. Now they have to get in line with Orton and make sure their relationships are good. Orton’s definitely very frosty about Tebow..so no one’s going to be damaging their relationship with Orton to help Tebow out or talk him up while the team looks to be moving ahead with Orton.
For me, it’s about upside and potential. Tebow showed he could play last year. He has to improve. But he won’t improve all that much until he plays and is committed to, at least for a time. Look..does anyone think Vince Young honestly beat out Kerry Collins when he was with the Titans? Of course not. How many rookies or 2nd years have beat out established veterans, at least veterans who were considered about average or better? I don’t recall any. Bradford wouldn’t have started last year unless AJ Feely went down to injury. And don’t tell me Bradford was just awesome until you watch all his games including the last 5 that had people scratching their heads. Does it mean he sucks? Of course not! Did McCoy beat anyone out? Nope. How about Big Ben? Nope- injury again. The only teams that start rookies or close to are teams that have not even an average vet. If Quinn was our starter, in other words, the team would be a no brainer for starting Tebow. Now, the trade got botched, either by the Broncos or Orton depending on who you read and believe. Now the team has to re-align with Orton. I believe though, that the Broncos MUST start Tebow if he closes out pre-season as good as or even CLOSE to Orton. Just from that factor of improvement that’s mentioned here. Elway knows and has said you learn more from being thrown into the fire like he was. He’s not making the player decisions, but he’s right. Tebow sat for a year and learned. Then he acquitted himself well when he didn’t get to work with the first team and was thrown in playing against vets who were fully spun up to playing speed at the end of a season and he was just trying to get warmed up. He can and will do better, most likely. If he crashes and burns you ditch him and move on.
The trade has made things bad because A: Orton has a lousy mentor/teammate mindset and B: if they go with Tebow and struggle, due to his play or not, the team now has a guy who looks good in practice that they’ll have to wonder if they might just not be doing better with. Not a good situation for a young guy to have to come in and take the reigns on. We’ll see what happens but it will still surprise me if the Broncos don’t open up with Tebow on Monday night against the Raiders. We’ll see.
by Sinthor on Aug 2, 2011 10:59 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
send him back
to chicago for a 7th round 2013 pick.
Boy, I sure hope this is the mess hall....how's it goin' Eisenhower?
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