Clever Like a Fox
After careful consideration I've concluded that John Fox knows more about football than I do. I was expecting us to draft Marcel Dareus and maybe another defensive tackle or two. To my dismay we got Von Miller and some other nice prospects but no defensive tackles. Then I saw a table — can somebody tell me who posted it, so I can give credit? — suggesting that teams with dominant running attacks don't win nearly as consistently as teams with dominant passing attacks. I suspect the obverse is also true, that if a team can only do one or the other it's better to have a dominant pass defense than a dominant run defense. And with that thought I began to get a glimmer of what Fox has been up to.
In 2010 we gave up 471 points, ranking 32nd, and ranked 32nd in rushing TDs given up, 31st in rushing yards allowed and 29th in yards per carry. With mediocrity seemingly permanently entrenched at defensive tackle it seemed obvious our first pick would be either Dareus or Fairley. But was rushing defense really our achilles heel? After all our run defense was almost as bad in 2009, at 4.5 vs 4.7 ypc, yet we gave up only 324 points, ranking a respectable 12th. The difference was pass defense. In 2010 we allowed 7.2 net yards per attempt*, ranking 30th, whereas in 2009 we allowed only 5.4, ranking 3rd. That's a huge difference. I don't think our secondary declined that much in one year. It was arguably pressure that made the difference. In 2009 Dumervil had 17 sacks and the rest of the team 22 for a total of 39, ranking a very respectable 10th. But in 2010 an injured Dumervil had none and everybody else 23, which ranked dead last. Interceptions showed a similar pattern. In 2009 Denver had 17, tied for 13th, but in 2010 only 10, ranking 31st. Clearly the decline in pass defense effectiveness was drastic, but does a difference of seven interceptions really account for a 147 point swing?
To understand why effective pass defense even with a relatively ineffective run defense can make such a large difference we need to understand how passing and running interact, and why passing is nonetheless arguably more important. Discontinuity is the enemy of offense. Teams very rarely score or move into scoring position from their own side of the 50 on a single running play, and not that often on pass plays. We hardly ever see TD drives in which no first downs are made. To score teams ordinarily have to convert several third downs, and a majority won't do. A single failure to convert will stop the drive. At first glance it might appear that against a really poor run defense the opposing team can simply run the ball over and over, getting first down after first down, until finally plowing into the end zone. Observant fans know, however, that even a poor run defense will from time to time stop a run for little or no gain. It's not frequent but not extremely rare, either. It's the 7 to 15 yard runs that up the average. That means that for even a poor run defense, and more often for a solid one, the other team will during the game face a number of third and medium or third and long situations. If the defense can't pressure the QB an unacceptably high percentage of these downs will be converted and fans will see a defense that can't get off the field.
That doesn't mean the run game is irrelevant. A running game that rarely gets stuffed tends to keep second and third downs at manageable distances, and if it can consistently pick up third and short on the ground that, too, is an aid to the offense's continuity. Hence from the defense's perspective stopping third and short, stopping the runner for no gain or a loss on first or second down, and preventing completions on third and medium or long are all important and all depend on the same basic attribute: getting penetration. Fox and Allen have made it clear that they want a disruptive defense, not just a sideline to sideline wall, and disruption is usually, directly or indirectly, caused by penetration. It leads to tackles for a loss, sacks, interceptions and fumbles. Fox's coaching and personnel moves, starting with Miller, are apparently predicated on disruptiveness in general (Moore knocking receivers silly, for instance) and penetration.
It's clear to me now that Fox's priority all along, regardless of what we thought, was to create a blistering pass rush, the quickest route to improvement on the scoreboard. Having Dumervil back and taking the most explosive player in the draft bids fair to turn a weakness into an overwhelming strength, thus maximizing the team's ability to keep opponents from scoring. It seems to be working. Denver's starters have outscored their counterparts on Buffalo and Seattle 14-3 and 17-3. Looks like this Fox knows what he's doing.
*Passing yards minus yards lost in sacks divided by passing attempts plus sacks. Stats taken from Pro-Football-Reference.com except for totals and rankings for sacks and interceptions, taken from ESPN.
This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR
69 comments
|
24 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
John Fox's scheme has always been to have speed on the outsides
and not worry about the tackles. IMO efx will not break the bank on a DT. They will have four serviceable tackles. I was a little surprises with Warren but he was not top 10. Bunkley was a steal and Jarmon is John’s two position player. Thomas is very serviceable and either McBean or Pressley can rotate. I am OK with this.
Waiver wire could have a surprise but I think at other positions.
I was really surprised at McBean's performance against the Seahags...
by bfree2bronc on Aug 29, 2011 12:49 PM MDT up reply actions
during McD's 6-0 start
I remember hearing PRAISE.. yes praise for McBean.. then everything went to $h!+
Peace and Love, to everyone... Reggae music soothes the soul; check out my relative's up and comin reggae band, "The Green" facebook.com/TheGreen808
Great post spock!
Teams will run the ball against us. They may be successful much of the time. But, we will get those stops for little or no gain and/or loss and our nickel and dime packages are outstanding. This is what stops drives. Great post spock.
It all starts in the trenches - HT 11/11/08
Leave the hateful vitriol to the uninformed - HT 3/16/09
Exactly
I think we’ll see a lot of Woodyard this year even when D.J. is healthy (and notice that we opened in a nockel package against Buffalo). I also like having Bailey in the slot in the nickel package. That’s smart. It helps keep our best secondary pass defender and tackler in the middle of the action.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
Someone else gets it
Rec’d. Have been fighting almost nonstop with fans about the importance Doom brings back and the addition on Von to create that VonDoom Defense. The pressure created by these players adds to the team in so many aspects that you have hit on here. The pressure from the d-line to affect an opposing team is critical to improvement and dominance. A team that is stout in pressure sets the offense up to have to take longer downs (2nd, 3rd and long)
We will probably give up chunks of yardage from time to time
but I don’t think offenses will as easily get into a rhythm against us as they did last year. How well teams run against us in the regular season will be correlated with but not determined by what’s happening in preseason. Some coaches put a lot of emphasis on their players “learning how to win,” possibly to the detriment of coaching and evaluation. We’ve all heard ad infinitum about how Detroit went 4-0 the year they went 0-16 in the regular season. Everybody’s extremely competitive and it probably takes discipline not to get too hung up on winning (the coach, not the players) in preseason. Tebow looked uncomfortable and appeared to be less effective than he was at the end of last season, but he was working on fundamentals, going through his reads and keeping his eyes downfield, and I like that. It speaks well of his ability to concentrate on what he needs to be doing even in the heat of battle, and of the coaching staff for insisting on it. With regards to the defense we won’t know what we’ve got, and how much Fox and Allen are holding back, until they start playing for real, but early returns are at least not discouraging.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
well
We’ve all heard ad infinitum about how Detroit went 4-0 the year they went 0-16 in the regular season.
I looked into it, and the last time the Broncos were good back in 05, they also won all their preseason games. So there’s that
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
I could be wrong
but I don’t think Fox puts as much of a premium on winning in the preseason as Shanny did. Not that I mind winning, and if we win in preseason despite Fox putting more emphasis on evaluation and not revealing his hand prematurely that’s a pretty good sign.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
If were winning so far with vanilla O and D
then we should be able to do good things this year when we turn it up. I still say we finish 8-8, but its looking better than when some were predicting 4-12 or 3-13 earlier before the preseason
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
Von and Elvis
are known pass rushers so their impact on the run is often overlooked. I have seen them both make solid plays against the run during the preseason. Their ability to get penetration and disrupt the offense is going to affect the run defense as well as the pass rush. This is a dimension that we missed last year and is going to help improve the overall defense.
Thank you Spock, for pointing out the stats. I have been trying to make a similar case but lacked the time and imagination to pull out the numbers that correlated to my argument. Live long, and Prosper!
"You’re only great if you win something. I mean, Alexander wasn’t Alexander the Mediocre or Alexander the Average. He was Alexander the Great, and there’s a reason for it."-Shannon Sharpe
Before last season I was anxious to see
if Doom had made progress as a run stopper. I had to wait a year to find out but it appears he has, in fact moreso than I dared hope. It remains to be seen how well he’ll do against more accomplished linemen but he’s definitely improved, and Miller is simply the complete package — run stopping, pass rush and coverage. I never thought Miller wouldn’t be good but I was mildly disappointed when we took him rather than Dareus or Fairley. After seeing him play, however, and seeing how well he and Dumervil complement each other, I’m all in. It won’t be a cakewalk against better teams, but on the other hand Miller is going to get even better and Allen probably has lots of tricks he’s saving for the regular season. We might not have the best defense in the league but I think they’ll be considerably better and fun to watch.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
by spock on Aug 29, 2011 3:00 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
I hate to sound like Al Davis
Overall team speed is going to help this defense improve against the run. We got gashed a lot last year because our linebackers were either out of position or were slow flowing to the play. We are a lot faster in the linebacking corps this year and that should help us. Team speed and better coaching is going to make a large difference.
The defenses we fielded after Elway retired up until 2005 were built for speed and were successful stopping the run. These defenses were good enough to get us into the playoffs most of those years.
"You’re only great if you win something. I mean, Alexander wasn’t Alexander the Mediocre or Alexander the Average. He was Alexander the Great, and there’s a reason for it."-Shannon Sharpe
I felt exactly the same on the #2
And I feel exactly the same since I saw Von playing and how great he complements Doom. And btw, I hoped a good run stop improvement by Doom as weel, but he really surprised me too. I’m very happy and proud on what we are doing.
Losing Warren for at least 10 weeks, Bunkley and DJ for the starting 2 or 3 weeks, Thomas and etc made me a bit bored… but it happens and the most important thing is that those moves were made by our FO. Improves are every where EVEN at DT… and not drafting a DT was a brilliant move, as they were many and when the other franchises were in a battle for them we took advantage from it and got at least 4 top-boards in their positions (Von as the best pass rusher, Moore as the best FS, Carter as the best SS and Irving as the best mike).
I bleed Orange & Blue.
by Fabio Broncos on Aug 31, 2011 7:44 AM MDT up reply actions
I really disagree with this
I don’t agree with the implication that pass defense was the more important fix to Foxy Bear. The moves support that theory, but it’s nothing more than coincidence to me.
There have been two moves to our pass defense. One, Elvis Dumervil is back now. He got back on his own. The only other move that was made is our addition of Von Miller. Von Miller was taken over Dareus for multiple reasons, IMO, none of which included the idea that pass defense was seen as the more important problem/solution/fix/question mark/whatever else.
There was no conspiracy. Team management wanted to draft a DT just as badly as we wanted them to. Don’t forget, they were discussing moving back into the first round (at a huge cost) to add DT Nick Fairley. After the first round, management never had a DT they liked that was within “reach”. The only surprise was that they didn’t like Paea and Austin like we did (and from what I’m hearing so far, sounds like that was a good decision).
I don’t think it was just “coach speak” when they tell us they wanted a DT very badly. I think it was true. I don’t think it was just coach speak when they told us that they were able to stay true to their board even more this year than in past years because (a) we had a bunch of needs and (b) free agency was coming after the draft for the first time.
The reason we drafted Von MIller, IMO, is because he was the more dominant player. The other reason is because DTs in FA cost less than half of what a pass rusher costs. And the biggest reason we drafted him (again, IMO) is because he filled two needs with one pick. Had it not been Von, we would have needed a high-value DE AND a starting SAM. Those are the reasons we drafted Von MIller over Dareus. That’s the reason Fox made one single move to add to the pass defense.
There is no conspiracy here. The run defense was important. On top of almost trading in to get Fairley, EFX eventually traded for Bunkley – a dominant run stuffer for a perennial top-ten run defense and added Ty MF Warren.
We need a techie to change the words in that Black Eyed Peas song 'Boom Boom Pow' to make it like our battle cry
Gotta get that Von Doom Boom. Gotta get that Von Doom Pow
Ya'll gettin' hit with the Von Doom
Kepp gettin' hit with the Von Doom
(Sounds a lot better with a beat instead of a keypad :)
by Rodney A on Aug 29, 2011 11:44 AM MDT reply actions 3 recs
EFX made it pretty clear that they had a plan A, plan B and so on...
Plan A was the draft and what they had on the roster (“We have some of the pieces already in place” John Fox). Plan A didn’t suit what they were will to go for, so we didn’t draft a DT instead we took the best player available at the #2 pick. Von Miller will show that he was the best of the top 5 in the draft and we have seen glimpses of it in just 3 weeks. Then Plan B comes into effect with the lockout a foregone conclusion with Bunkley, Warren, Jarmon and Harvey. Not all glamor and glitze but blue collar guys that do their job without all the fanciness. Now we go into Plan C which will be waived/cut players on the wire. I think they have studied this pool thourghly and will address several positions of need.
John Fox, Brian Xanders and John Elway has made more logical effient moves in 8 months than has been made in years at Denver…Look for more to come.
by bfree2bronc on Aug 29, 2011 1:01 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
One man's junk is another man's treasure
I think we’re on the lookout for players who are waived with franchises such as New England, Pittsburgh, New York Jets, Baltimore, etc.
Teams who are fully stacked and just can’t take on the younger bucks who were beat out by potential pro bowlers or backups who would be starters in other cities.
These players will give us depth, at the very least.
who wears short shorts?
A conspiracy??
I didn’t say anything about no stinkin conspiracy theory. Neither did I mean to imply that drafting a DT wasn’t a priority. What I did mean to suggest is that it wasn’t quite as big a priority as I initially thought it was compared to other needs. If they’d wanted to badly enough they’d have gotten a good DT. I take with a grain of salt the idea that they really, really wanted one but, gosh, it just didn’t work out. Fox is the anti-drama queen and is quite capable of playing it close to the vest and dousing rather than feeding the flames, as witness the way he’s dampened the furore around Tebow while doing probably exactly what he intended to all along. And it makes sense that they at least considered trading up to get Fairley, who is especially noted for being extremely disruptive. Obviously, it would be good to have an elite pass defense and run defense, but you can’t always have your druthers. They had too many holes to fill to spend multiple draft choices on Fairley once they committed to Miller. I do think a dominant pass defense, fueled by an overwhelming pass rush, was his number one priority, for reasons already given plus it best utilizes existing talent (Bailey, Goodman et al) and leverages Doom’s ability by making it impossible for teams to focus exclusively on Denver’s only real pass rushing threat. That doesn’t preclude Miller filling two needs (a very good point) since, as any good chess player knows, accomplishing multiple ends with a single move is a winning strategy. Finally, a run defense that gives up a moderately high ypc isn’t inconsistent with one that’s capable of stopping a short yardage play when it has to. In that scenario penetration is perhaps more important than immovability. And Fox may have felt that he could get a good enough DT or two in free agency, which in fact he did.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
I understand your stance but still disagree
The “conspiracy” part wasn’t meant to be pointed at you and it wasn’t worded very well, either. I guess it’s sort of become my very generic term I tend to use when people talk about “the plan”. Again, not necessarily you. As Bfree pointed out above, I see the plan as more of an audible – a very fluid concept. When i speak of conspiracy theories, I’m just generally meaning that our draft wasn’t a bait-and-switch. It’s meant for those that act as if the plan was always for us to not draft a DT even though the coaches say they wanted to. It’s my not so eloquent way of saying the fact that we didn’t draft a DT had absolutely nothing to do with any plan – that there was no preemptive rhyme or reason to that happening; there was no conspiracy from the front office where they secretly held the belief that we didn’t need a DT.
Back to your post, I would agree that having two elite pass rushing DEs does more for your football team than if you had two elite run-stuffing DTs. I would also agree that this is becoming more and more of a passing league. And I would even say that it’s easier to remain competitive in the game with a bad run defense versus a bad pass defense simply because opposing offense aren’t likely to score as quickly or as much.
Still, I think the only substantial move John Fox made to our pass defense (drafting Von MIller) had absolutely nothing to do with him seeing that as a bigger need. I think they saw DT as the team’s biggest need, but went with Von because he filled two needs, it would have been more expensive to add a pass rusher in FA than to add a DT, and because he was just the better overall player. I think it was entirely coincidence and not part of any bigger plan that we skipped a DT to take a pass rusher. We simply took the guy that best improved our team.
We need a techie to change the words in that Black Eyed Peas song 'Boom Boom Pow' to make it like our battle cry
Gotta get that Von Doom Boom. Gotta get that Von Doom Pow
Ya'll gettin' hit with the Von Doom
Kepp gettin' hit with the Von Doom
(Sounds a lot better with a beat instead of a keypad :)
What you say is true as far as I can see, but if a player like Von Miller wasn't there at 2 then we would have taken Dareus...
Miller was just too good to pass up and he has shown in a short time why. Remember when Dareus said he would make us pay for not taking him? He had one sack of Orton and then after that was pretty non-essential the rest of the way. Miller made plays all through the time he was on the field. I love the fact that EFX are using logical sense in play acquistion wher McD grabbed the first thing available…Like Night&Day like the players are saying. How beautiful is that?
I would say that drafting Rahim Moore was also aimed at improving our passing defense. Most people had Von Miller higher on their board than Darius and only those exclusively committed to “drafting for need” questioned our first round pick. It was when we went safety in round two rather than the best DT on the board that the grumbles began. I agree with you that there were DTs that we would have taken there, but since Rahim was there with a mid first grade (on their board) at that point, they couldn’t pass him up.
I suppose this is kind of a chicken and egg question: Did the Broncos not draft a DT in the early rounds because of how the board fell, or because their defensive scheme placed a lower priority on getting a DT run suffer as opposed to players who would help against the pass. I think both, since they drafted according to their board, but the way that their board was put together reflects their overall value and prioritization of player types and positions, biasing it toward players and positions that impact pass defense.
Yeah, I'll concede your point on Moore
He was an upgrade to the pass defense, which was greatly needed given that Hill wasn’t great and Dawk is pretty long in the tooth. But let’s also not forget that we added an OT there also. I think all it tells us is that EFX weren’t fans of Paea or Austin. I was. I thought we’d take one of them.
I truly believe the Xanders and The Johns truly just went by their board. I think they just chose the best player at position of need with each pick. We went in with a lot of needs so I think it’s fair to just take it at face value when they said they knew they couldn’t fill all the needs solely with the draft, and thus they just stayed true to the board (so long as it was a need and a guy they felt could start immediately with those first picks).
So to the chicken and egg question, I do firmly believe that it was absolute and pure coincidence/luck as to how the board fell. I remember the post draft press conferences pretty well and I remember Elway’s face when asked about not drafting DTs. He deserves an Oscar if he was faking it. He said something about how they talked about it, kept talking about it, with every pick… they kept talking about it. The board just didn’t fall that way. Had free agency been before the draft, I think they would have reached for a DT. Since it was the opposite, I think they were able to fight off the urge. And again, judging by his tone… it was a strong urge.
I think DT was their biggest need and biggest want going into the draft. But I think Von Miller was their favorite player. And I think they followed their board after that. Nothing more to it, IMO.
We need a techie to change the words in that Black Eyed Peas song 'Boom Boom Pow' to make it like our battle cry
Gotta get that Von Doom Boom. Gotta get that Von Doom Pow
Ya'll gettin' hit with the Von Doom
Kepp gettin' hit with the Von Doom
(Sounds a lot better with a beat instead of a keypad :)
I agree with this
Had I been running things I may have moved up to take Taylor but it would have cost me Moore and maybe Irving.
We had lots of needs. Probably a good thing I wasn’t running things.
by JeffG on Aug 29, 2011 4:37 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think if he lasted longer it would have been more likely
I was the Broncos rep for a live mock over at Mocking The Draft (SB Nation site). Taylor was still there at 27 so I moved in and took him (after taking Miller at #2). In trading with the Falcons, I was able to pull it off while still keeping a 2nd round pick (their #27 and #59 for our two 2nd rounders).
Taylor was taken at #21 in real life, though. I wish we could have gotten him somehow, but like you said, it likely would have cost us Fanklin or Moore, maybe both.
We need a techie to change the words in that Black Eyed Peas song 'Boom Boom Pow' to make it like our battle cry
Gotta get that Von Doom Boom. Gotta get that Von Doom Pow
Ya'll gettin' hit with the Von Doom
Kepp gettin' hit with the Von Doom
(Sounds a lot better with a beat instead of a keypad :)
I was one of those who grumbled
when Moore was taken, DoubleJay, but I have since seen the light. Your point is well-taken about EFX’s board “reflect[ing] their overall value and prioritization of player types and positions”, and I think it not unlikely that it was weighted “toward players and positions that impact pass defense.” It was the way they drafted that suggested to me that their prioritzations and weightings weren’t quite in line with what I was expecting. Mohamed was also a surprise. Didn’t he grade out as a relatively good coverage linebacker?
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
well said
he's tall, blonde, smokes a cigar, and he's a pig!
by Scrappy Bill on Aug 31, 2011 11:05 AM MDT up reply actions
Logical as always :-)
Rec’d
I was inspired enough by the play of the first string D during the preseason to take them as my D on my fantasy team – meaning that I expect our sacks, INTs and 3rd down stops all to increase dramatically relative to 2010.
Allen was the DB coach of the Saints from 08-10. Here are the QB ratings against the Saints for those three years
08 – 80.3
09 – 68.6
10 – 83.2
I could live with those numbers very easily considering the Broncos numbers from the same three years:
98.5
75.0
93.0
Ding Dong the lockout's dead
Again Proving my Point about Champ
A great DB does not a Defense make. Shanny shoulda kissed CP’s back side and built a solid front four instead of trading for CB.
by KoloradoKaos on Sep 1, 2011 11:14 AM MDT up reply actions
Wait, what?
You want Clinton Portis back?
Don’t take this personally,because I’m just saying it in general, but I find it so incredibly annoying when people use the ‘cornerbacks don’t make a good defense’ card, or any variation on it, including pointing out the guys like Namdi and and Revis and Champ haven’t been to a SB.
You can’t build a team around a CB. Agreed. You also can’t build a team around a LT, RT, LG, RG, OC, TE, WR, FB, S, DT, etc..
Great offenses are built around QBs. Great defenses are built around a pass rusher and/or a linebacker. So that’s it. So what if you’re not going to use an elite cornerback to mold your team around. We’re not building the team around Ryan Clady, either. It means nothing.
It’s nice to have Clady locking down the blindside. And it’s nice to have the luxury of putting Champ on an island in blitz packages (and more recently on the hot receiver on 3rd downs).
RBs are a dime a dozen. They’re cheap in free agency and they get injured all the time. I can’t fathom someone thinking that was a bad trade. I’m glad we have Champ Bailey. And I’m glad he decided to stay here for his first Super Bowl win.
Confucious says: It's pretty tough to intercept a pitch in the backfield.
To the eye candy in the back: Sorry Rahim. Sorry Goody. Not now Vaughn. With only 35 pass yards to WRs this year (1's v 1's), Elvis and Von aren't giving you the chance to 'see ball, get ball'. Poor guys :=(
Completely right, Rod
Even a player vs. player trade in this case could be considered awesome for us… but hey, we still got a 2nd round pick who was Tatum Bell!!!!
I bleed Orange & Blue.
by Fabio Broncos on Sep 1, 2011 2:45 PM MDT up reply actions
Great point Fabio!
Confucious says: It's pretty tough to intercept a pitch in the backfield.
To the eye candy in the back: Sorry Rahim. Sorry Goody. Not now Vaughn. With only 35 pass yards to WRs this year (1's v 1's), Elvis and Von aren't giving you the chance to 'see ball, get ball'. Poor guys :=(
not only that, but look at the career comparisons
Neither Champ or Portis has a ring. Portis is on his last leg and Champ is still going strong. The Broncos clearly got the best end of the deal. What’s worse is the fact that Shanny got rid of Portis twice.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
Follow me on Twitter @MHR_KaptainKirk
Maybe
Best NFL trade ever…
I bleed Orange & Blue.
by Fabio Broncos on Sep 3, 2011 9:55 AM MDT up reply actions
Very nice spock and agree for the most part.
Just remember one thing if you never remember anything; “Night and Day”. That’s what this defense will be. What I don’t get is how people have to bring up that we ‘sorely’ need a great DT? We hear it nearly everyday almost as much as how Tim Tebow can’t ever be an NFL quarterback. I guess they haven’t been watching the games as close as they should. #1 The DEs set the temple for the rest of the defense including the DT position. If you’ve noticed the DTs are playing with a lot more intensity and smarts than they have before, especially Vickerson and McBean. Then we think, how is this so since we still have Wayne Nunnely as our DLine coach. It the scheme that John Fox and Dennis Allen brings. Nunnely teaches tecnique and Allen infuses how to use it. Brilliant move by Xanders and Elway to select them as coaches…
I'm one of those people saying we sorely need an addition in the middle =)
You can see from my recent fanpost that I’m very optimistic about the state of our defense, but I still think we could get worked by the Vikings, Jets, Chiefs and even the Raiders if we don’t get better in the middle.
So far, we’ve dominated bad teams. We dominated their bad OLs and their bad QBs. Nothing wrong with that. But we need to keep in mind that those hacks Fitzpatrick and Jackson were bad enough for us to get more pressures than we will against better teams. Again, nothing wrong with that. But the point here is that a guy like Jackson, with his two starting rookies on the right side of the line and his backup tackle on the left, wasn’t able to stand and deliver even enough to maintain their ability to run the ball. I think they only ran six times simply because the down and distance didn’t allow for them to do so. We can’t count on that every week.
We did give up runs in those first two weeks in limited time. Felix Jones did break off an 18 yard run in just three attempts in that first game (and he had another 16 yard checkdown). The next week, Fred Jackson had a 20 yard run in just four tries and Spiller had a 14 yard run in just six tries.
The pass rush is the real deal and it’s going to make our defense very good, IMO. But our run defense is a paper tiger, IMO. We need an upgrade or we’re going to pay for it.
We need a techie to change the words in that Black Eyed Peas song 'Boom Boom Pow' to make it like our battle cry
Gotta get that Von Doom Boom. Gotta get that Von Doom Pow
Ya'll gettin' hit with the Von Doom
Kepp gettin' hit with the Von Doom
(Sounds a lot better with a beat instead of a keypad :)
I like Bunkley and Thomas in the middle
But I was really hoping we’d get Phil Taylor. I can see Fairly costing too much. But Taylor was in reach and he would have been perfect.
Still, I like where we’re heading, and given where we are on the waiver wire list, I like our chance of finding a diamond in the rough. Vickerson was just such a pickup last year. He’s turned into a very serviceable rotational player inside.
Bunk was an animal against the Bills
What surprised me most was that he was making impact against the pass as well as the run. I knew him to be a dominant run-stuffer. Dominant. But it was a nice surprise to see him have such affect against the pass (drilling Fitz into the dirt on one play, tipping the ball that DJ intercepted was another that sticks out).
If these guys were healthy, I’d be a happy camper. We need Ty Warren or a replacement for him to be a good run defense, but we’ll be just fine with Thomas and Bunk starting. The problem I have is the order of our schedule.
We play Oakland, Cinci then the Titans. All three of them are running teams with QB issues. I would worry a lot less if we were playing those teams later and instead opening up against Rivers, Stafford and Cutler. I think a lot of people might think I’m nuts in saying that, but I don’t fear those passing teams like I fear DMF and Chris Johnson IF we’re still without our starters and upgrades.
We need a techie to change the words in that Black Eyed Peas song 'Boom Boom Pow' to make it like our battle cry
Gotta get that Von Doom Boom. Gotta get that Von Doom Pow
Ya'll gettin' hit with the Von Doom
Kepp gettin' hit with the Von Doom
(Sounds a lot better with a beat instead of a keypad :)
I think that this also validates the draft strategy used by the Broncos. I think almost all of us agree that the Broncos need to get stouter in the middle of the defense (the raiders game last year was enough to make that plain — shudder). Still, once you are outside the first round, it is hard to get an elite run stuffer who can step right in and make an impact. DT in general and NT specifically seems to be a hard position to draft. Partly due to the difficulty in projecting how a college player will transition to the pro game, partly due to the potential for injury inherent in the position. I fully support the Broncos addressing the DT position through free agency rather than the draft, and, so far, even given some bad luck in the injury department, their strategy seems justified.
We’ll see if we can stay healthy and if we can get some help at both Oline and Dline after cuts.
I'd call our signings of DTs (instead of drafting them) an audible instead of a strategy
Because I think it was never part of the original plan, at least to not to that degree.
Other than that, I do agree that Franklin and Moore may have just been seen as more able to contribute and start immediately over the DTs that were available. In fact, that’s how a lot of scouting grades are based – the grade is based on how soon they’re projected to start and/or make impact.
We need a techie to change the words in that Black Eyed Peas song 'Boom Boom Pow' to make it like our battle cry
Gotta get that Von Doom Boom. Gotta get that Von Doom Pow
Ya'll gettin' hit with the Von Doom
Kepp gettin' hit with the Von Doom
(Sounds a lot better with a beat instead of a keypad :)
We find a way to stop those backs and come out 3-0, and I think we can give the Packers a game they're not expecting
We need a techie to change the words in that Black Eyed Peas song 'Boom Boom Pow' to make it like our battle cry
Gotta get that Von Doom Boom. Gotta get that Von Doom Pow
Ya'll gettin' hit with the Von Doom
Kepp gettin' hit with the Von Doom
(Sounds a lot better with a beat instead of a keypad :)
I agree that we do need talent at DT and what we have played hasn't really given us a test of where we stand...
I’m inclined to believe that EFX feel the same and are searching vigorously for a ‘stud’. free agents are mostly bandaids until you fine the man in the draft and every once in a while you find one that sticks and make the team for a long term. I hear you wholeheartedly about our run stopping and it will suffer. Are they willing to give up some for a bigger play? IDK the mind of Fox, but they have been going at player acquistion with a fairly good pace of patience and logic. Not like McD in Green, Bannan and Williams although I like Bannan a lot. The regime sucked at rebuilding the team…
I have nothing but good things to say about the personnel moves thus far
I would already scream from a mountain top that this draft is the best we’ve had since 2006. Ty Warren might be gone for the whole season, but so far we’ve only lost $2.5M. Not bad considering we’re still paying like five times that amount for the mistakes McDaniels made a year ago.
We need a techie to change the words in that Black Eyed Peas song 'Boom Boom Pow' to make it like our battle cry
Gotta get that Von Doom Boom. Gotta get that Von Doom Pow
Ya'll gettin' hit with the Von Doom
Kepp gettin' hit with the Von Doom
(Sounds a lot better with a beat instead of a keypad :)
Too true. Plus it is not fair to hold injuries against the front office. Warren was looking worth every penny we paid to sign him before he got hurt, and he should still give us some quality snaps next season even is he is out all this year. Here’s hoping we can afford to keep him on the 53 man roster and get a boost from him over the last 4 games of the regular season.
We kept the Jets and Chiefs (twice) in check
last year with a vastly inferior defense with worse players and coaching. I think with better pieces in place theres no reason why we cant repeat those performances. As far as Oak goes, I think their running game takes a hit this year, they lost Cable and their best O lineman. The rest of their O line is a mess also. We can beat em this year, and possibly even sweep em
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
And I'm other of those people
I do agree with spock about the post and how the pass defense improvement makes a huge diference between a pitiful season to a solid season.
However, in this case of talking about adding a top-tier DT, I agree with Rodney since the post-draft (with a big concern if the FA would open). And just when the lockout was over and free agency began, I always pointed overhere the big importance of talent at DT. Any franchise can survive if it can’t stop runs in the middle. It’s simple… You can put a lot of pressure on the passers, you can have the best secondary of the world, etc etc… If you can’t stop 3.5ypc carries in the middle, you are done. That’s was pointed by spock, that the run defense is not useless and complements the dominancy in pass defense. I agree entirely.
The point is that we really need an addition in the middle to do it fairly. Even with a NO-DT draft, our front-office knows it.. and althought I think they could do some different moves at free agency (for example going heavy after Cofield whom we didn’t even tryed to sign), EFX added a good amount of talent here. Ty Warren was a risk they thought worth to run, as he had a stellar season filled with solid other seasons, but with injury prone. Bunkley for me is a very stud guy who we all knew is a great run stuffer, and for my good surprise, showed some good skills while rushing the passer or collapsing the pocket. Marcus Thomas is a big guy with some upside and was resigned… So it shows how important is adding some talent here.
Unfortunately, we got 3 injuries on Warren, Bunkley and Thomas. But it happens and it’s not our FO’s fault. Even if they don’t add anybody else to fit those misses, they made a very good job so far running our beloved Denver Broncos. And watching their moves, they agreed with me, Rodney, and all people saying we sorely need addition in the middle. Nay, WE agreed with them, what makes more sense hahaha…
I bleed Orange & Blue.
by Fabio Broncos on Aug 31, 2011 8:02 AM MDT up reply actions
Also
I think if we look at the DT position under further scrutiny, we would find that it is susceptible to injury.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
Follow me on Twitter @MHR_KaptainKirk
Tank Tyler and Vernon Gholston available
Just sayin’.
But please... don't say it again!
Take my advice... I'm not using it!
"If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague."
by BroncTastic on Aug 29, 2011 10:55 PM MDT up reply actions
Tyler would be a very good
rotation run stopper. Knock on him is that he takes plays off.
Now that he’s been sent packing, maybe he has a wake up call.
At any rate, he was with Carolina. They traded for him. So Fox will know best.
With all the trouble on our defensive line
it will be an interesting waiver period, that is for sure.
Take my advice... I'm not using it!
"If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague."
Totally logical Spock!
All you have to do is look at the history of this team and know our D always does better when we’ve had a few elite players at LB, DE & Safety. Think Gradishar, Atwater, Tommy Jackson, Meck, Billy Thompson and others.
We’re going in the right direction!
GO BRONCOS!!!
I've been bleedin' orange and blue since Floyd Little in '71-'72 and will 'til the day I die!
Bring back the Orange Crush!
RANDY GRADISHAR in the HOF!!!!
Go Broncos
Fox did a good job with our “D” It looks like we can make the playoffs LETS GO BRONCOS
shana_19
Team Building
In all the discussion of the draft, free agency, etc., it might be helpful to have some perspective on what’s going on here. I think that no one would argue that some big mistakes were made in the last few years, at all levels. Going from a .500 team to picking second in the draft certainly is not the direction anyone wants to go. Now, there is a glimmer that this team may be turning it around before a regular season game has been played. What do we know? That we may a bunch of rookies playing this year, along with two second year offensive linemen. We have a fairly deep WR group, and a qb situation which some teams would like to have—although I do have to laugh when reading that Seattle has a qb controversy! So, let’s take Elway at his word. It has been reported more than once that there is a “three year” plan. We haven’t even gotten into the first game of year one. It’s going to take several drafts, free agency signings, trades, and yes, development of players, for this team to win a championship. The key is having the faith and confidence in the front office not to abandon ship in the middle of the first year if the team isn’t 8-0! or even 4-4 . . . all I know is that Elway has shown that he knows this business, and Fox took a 1-15 team to the Super Bowl in two years, so he knows what it takes. Let’s enjoy the ride. Even if we don’t make the playoffs this year, I still say GO BRONCOS!
by bronco.fan on Aug 29, 2011 6:40 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Great insights and observations Spock!
Another thing I would have added is the percentage of teams that have a focus on the running game and ACTUALLY run 3-5 plays in a row (not many teams do that). But there are a LOT more teams in the league that rely on their passing game for first downs, as well as for getting the run started. If they never get that chance, they’ve always got to run to set up the pass.
Our defense is basically dictating what the offense does: “If you Pass to set up the Run, we will get you. So you WILL run to set up the pass (and we will probably still get you).” We take most teams out of their comfort zone. this way.
just off the top of my head I can only think of a few teams that consistently hand the ball off 3-5 times in a row: The Jets, Giants, Raiders, Cheifs, Ravens, Carolina (who knows without Fox anymore), and maybe still the Steelers. Just off the top of my head, I am sure there are some other good teams that run the ball a LOT.
Anyhow, even if someone could name 10, that’s not even half the league. So getting a strong pass defense will improve our game against 30-40% of the league’s offenses.
"It is better to be rougly right than precisely wrong." - John Maynard Keynes
"Excellence can be obtained; if you care more than others think is wise…risk more than others think is safe…dream more than others think is practical…expect more than others think is possible." - Anonymous Author
I like the idea of our defense dictating what the offense does
and it applies even to run-heavy teams. A run-heavy team passes more often than a pass-heavy team runs, but if a running team doesn’t want to face Doom and Miller coming off the edge simultaneously they’ll have to pass more often on downs where they’d normally run. So again, it takes them out of their comfort zone. Another way to look at it is, because of the disparity between passing and running in yards per attempt about two thirds of a team’s yardage will be generated by the passing game. Shut down the passing game and you’ve shut down two thirds of even a running team’s offense.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
Same with Peterson
Peterson’s contributions to D are limited by the nature of his position, CB. Even with his “all-world” talent he does not appear to be having a similar impact with whomever drafted him. The conflict over who the Broncos SHOULD have drafted is a moot point. Personally, I wouldn’t have abandoned ship if we picked Darius or Peterson but I’m damned glad we got Miller.
"Peace, a journey without distance to a place we have never left."
Very nice, spock
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
Follow me on Twitter @MHR_KaptainKirk
Excellent post, Spock!
"A man can never have too much red wine, too many books or enough ammunition." Rudyard Kipling
Always glad to read a Spock post
Always.
This one didn’t disappoint. As usual.
Take my advice... I'm not using it!
"If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague."
Well said spock
I agree pass off/def is more important than run off/def and get frustrated when folks continue to spout the “run to win” nonsense. The YPA average for run vs. pass plays show the NFL is clearly a passing league, and the general NFL rule shifts towards passing mean any team still pushing a “run-first & second & thrid” style is starting from behind… it can succeed, but it better be REALLY good because an average passing focused offense is likely to score as many points as a great rushing offense. The 2 obviously compliment eachother (I’m not a fan of pass-whacky either), but it is undeniably true that the teams that run the most are those that typically built up big leads in the 1st half by whatever means (pass/run/DEF).
I also agree with Rodney that this probably wasn’t the thinking behind the draft moves… it really looks to me just like BPA at position of need, if you buy the argument that Moore/Franklin were rated higher than Paea/Austin. We needed a passrusher/SLB, and Miller looked like a great fit for those needs.
Dareus vs. Miller is easily explainable by how explosive Miller has looked… he looks to have HOF-caliber athleticism… while Dareus looks fine too and would look great lined up inside for the us now, the knock on him in scouting reports was often that his upside was probably more “very good” rather than “great” (at least compared to other recent top-5 DTs like Suh/McCoy)…. taking Miller in such a situation is eminently understandable without needing to say we were focusing on pass vs. run.
I think EFX also said they were hoping the DT that WAS grabbed at ~2-12 would fall to their 2nd rnd picks… that looked like a fair gamble at the time, and would’ve given us the high-round DT many of us wanted.
Great observations. Great read.
I think your observations provide a lot of insight.
For decades, I’ve been pondering the notion of the “Super Stat” – the mathematical “Key to the Kingdom” if you will. I’ve wondered if there was one stat that was predictive of future success. I admit, this was mostly for the purposes of gambling.
I’ve run the gamut from yard-per-pass-attempt differential to holding penalties per game. Right now, the cynic in me has fallen to “subjective penalties per game” (i.e. holding calls, illegal use of hands etc.) which seems to be derivative of stadium-ballot measures.
I’d never thought about touchdown drives without a first down (including defensive and ST TDs). Would you characterize those scores as “lucky” (that is, being a function of chance)? Often, the margin of victory in the NFL is slight. I’ve never considered how frequently these “lucky” TDs happen. Do they occur in every game? How often does a team score one of these “lucky” TDs and still lose? Who can forget that great Monday Nighter in 2009 against the Chargers when Eddie Royal had two returns for TDs and the Darren Sproles only had one?
“Lucky” is a misnomer. Maybe “giant” would be more appropriate.
I know you probably don’t have the answers to these questions, but have you ever considered this? If so, what are your thoughts?
I know these “giant” TDs have made me realize that betting NFL point totals is often a sucker’s bet (unless the weather is extreme).
Anyway, great post!
Truth shall be known.
by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Aug 31, 2011 10:09 AM MDT reply actions
Interesting questions
I think the important point is a strong offense scores on a high percentage of drives, with a high percentage of those scores being TDs rather than field goals. A team with a strong offense might, just to pluck some as-if numbers out of the air, have four long strike (50 yards or more) TDs in a season and a weak offense one, but in this hypothetical example that accounts for only a 21 point difference whereas the actual difference between the two offenses might be 200 or 300 points. Hence the long strike differential is an indication of the offenses’ relative strengths, not the cause of it. A team that can move the ball well and finish drives will very occasionally move it all the way on a single play of 50 yards or more, but that’s the result, not the cause of being able to move the ball well and accounts for only a small percentage of its points. Long strikes winning games is even more rare, even though it might not seem so when you see them a hundred times in the top ten plays of the week. And although, over the long haul, the stronger offense might win this way more often, in any given game it can easily go either way. Over a season it might be the difference between 11-5 and 10-6, or 4-12 and 5-11, in each case in either direction (or in our case between 7-9 and 8-8 in 2009).
Is a successful offense due more to a strong passing attack or a strong running game? I think in this case the answer is unequivocally a strong passing attack. From 1965 through 1969, when Gale sayers was tearing up the league, the Chicago Bears went 29-38-1. The Bears went 100-79 with Walter Payton, with virtually all of that differential coming in his last three years when they had a dominating defense (and, except for 1985, an average offense). Barry Sanders retired in frustration after a career in which the Lions went 78-82. More recently, the Vikings have gone 36-28 with Peterson, with all of that plus eight differential accounted for in their 12-4 2009 season, Brett Favre’s last hurrah. When Favre tanked in 2010 so did the Vikes, even though Peterson continued to produce at a high level. I think a less selective collection of stats would support the point even more strongly: a dominant running back cannot carry a team and teams with league-best rushing attacks are only average in the won-lost column.
I would expect a successful defense to be a mirror of a successful offense. In 2010 the Steelers led the league in fewest points allowed (232), and their rushing defense being number one in all categories contradicts my thesis but at the same time their pass defense ranked 2nd in net yards per attempt. Green Bay, who allowed only eight more points, was 3rd in net passing yards per attempt but 28th in rushing yards per carry (4.7, same as us). That similarity in yards per carry might be misleading, however, since they ranked 18th in total rushing yards allowed whereas we ranked 31st. Their high yards per carry figure may reflect a defensive philosophy in which they played soft against the run and aggressively against the pass when protecting a lead. It might be more revealing to see which teams had strong pass defenses and weak run defenses , and which had strong run defenses and weak pass defenses, and see which combination tended to give up fewer points. If a player errs in reading pass vs run I suspect it’s better to err on the side of expecting pass, because getting torched on a pass play is more likely to be fatal than giving up a big run.
It’s hard to draw conclusions from preseason games. To what extent have opposing offenses been bad and to what extent have we made them look bad? To what extent have they prioritizied scoring vs evalaution, and to what extent have we prioritized preventing scoring vs evaluation? I did think I noticed several instances in which we gave up chunks of yardage short of a first down after having put opposing offenses in difficult down and distance situations. I suspect the best offenses are those with a high passing yards per attempt and high passing totals, with rushing games in which the yardage total is relatively low but the yards per carry relatively high (i.e. being able to run when you need to). Being able to pick up third and short (or goal to go) on the ground and prevent it on defense is also key, as is being able to run while protecting a lead, but it’s hard to see how that would shake out statistically. Generally I think Miller’s and Dumervil’s ability to penetrate will help shut down passing games and be disruptive (feast or famine) against running games, with an overall positive effect (including probably interceptions and fumbles).
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.

by 






































