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McBath waived

From Lindsay Jones:

http://t.co/uxkAiMA

Star-divide

We needed to cut someone in order to add Wilhite, is my guess, so McBath was the casualty.

I didn't want to post a longer commentary but the word count needs to be longer so ..................

McBath's legacy (for now) will be tied to the controversial 2009 draft, although his selection in particular wasn't controversial at the time. Watching McCree and Manual in 2008 made the selection of any Safety welcome news in 2009. McBath showed promise initially and appeared to be headed for a starter's role during his rookie season but injuries knocked him out and he regressed after that.

This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR

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rotoworld

calls our 2009 2nd round one of the worst in nil HISTORY. A. Smith, R. Quinn and now McBath all gone before the their 3rd year.

by johnnyurrotten on Sep 4, 2011 6:08 PM MDT reply actions  

Got a link

I’d love to see that list.

I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.

by Topher Doll on Sep 4, 2011 6:22 PM MDT up reply actions  

rotoworld.com

I read it for fantasy football news. If you play you’ll find the sight very useful. As for a list, they don’t provide one. Obviously it was someones opinion but I found it comical considering McGeorge always brings up how pathetic our second round actually was. He’s not the only one who thinks so. Considering we traded a top 12 pick for Alphonso Smith, traded up to pick R. Quinn and the outcome of McBath I don’t think the writer is going out on a limb with his statement.

by johnnyurrotten on Sep 4, 2011 9:52 PM MDT up reply actions  

I've been looking for the link but can't find it yet

If you can find it, please post it. I’m not saying it was a good round, but I’ve seen worse.

I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.

by Topher Doll on Sep 5, 2011 12:06 AM MDT up reply actions  

Here you go

http://www.rotoworld.com/playernews/nfl/football?r=1

Rotoworld gives small capsules of player information, then links to the source, usually a local newspaper.
In this case, look about halfway down the page for a story on Darcel McBath being waived. The bit about the 09 draft being one of the worst ever is ascribed to a tweet by Lindsay Jones of the DP. So, it’s just her opinion, but hard to disagree with.

Personal relations consist of an uneasy truce between powerful, solitary fantasy systems.

Janet Malcolm

by bradley on Sep 5, 2011 5:09 AM MDT up reply actions  

Oops

Doesn’t take you directly to it. Kirk’s link (below) works.

Personal relations consist of an uneasy truce between powerful, solitary fantasy systems.

Janet Malcolm

by bradley on Sep 5, 2011 7:39 AM MDT up reply actions  

Here is the link

http://www.rotoworld.com/headlines/nfl/211708/broncos-waive-safety-darcel-mcbath

It says the source is Linsay Jones from the DP

Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
Follow me on Twitter @MHR_KaptainKirk

by KaptainKirk on Sep 5, 2011 7:20 AM MDT up reply actions  

Mike Klis says the same thing in this morning's DP

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_18827909

Personal relations consist of an uneasy truce between powerful, solitary fantasy systems.

Janet Malcolm

by bradley on Sep 5, 2011 7:37 AM MDT up reply actions  

mismatch between headline and body

Klis makes the same point about injuries affecting McBath’s career that I made above. Instead of showing the strikeout metaphor, he describes in the body of his column an injury plagued career. So, was he hit by a pitch or did we strike out? This is a point about reading texts/narratives. Were we remiss in not knowing he would become injured?

Klis stumbles when he repeats the misinformation about the terms of Quinn’s acquisition. We received a #2 & #4 for those 2 – #3s. And the available alternative picks at that point were not impressive. There’s a ‘grass is greener’ effect going on here. Fans grade picks based on their unrealistic expectations and ignore the cohort of likewise busts, largely because they no longer have to consider them. I was always unimpressed by the critics of the Quinn pick who couldn’t demonstrate any knowledge of the 2009 TE crop but ‘knew’ where he should have gone. I’m reminded of arms inspector Hans Blix’s criticism of Rumsfeld for his absolute certainty of the existence of WMDs yet no other knowledge concerning them. Sounds like an “unknown, unknown” to me.

******* George Santayana described fanaticism as -- "redoubling your effort after you've forgotten your aim"

by Colinski on Sep 5, 2011 3:44 PM MDT up reply actions  

You do understand (I hope)

That I was just providing a link to a couple sites? I neither endorsed nor stated any sort of opinion about the content of what was said in either article.

Personal relations consist of an uneasy truce between powerful, solitary fantasy systems.

Janet Malcolm

by bradley on Sep 5, 2011 6:38 PM MDT up reply actions  

I understand

Pardon the agonistic tone. I definitely wasn’t assuming Klis’ comments represented your own thoughts on the subject. My primary intended audience was other readers.

I (quite admittedly) make disparaging comments about the DP’s writers, except for Lindsay Jones. My grievance is generally with their ‘disinformational’ style of journalism, for lack of a better term. This sometimes involves misstating the facts (as Klis did, and it’s somewhat astonishing that he would miss the part of the deal that delivered Seth Olsen), but it sometimes relates to simple honesty, and I’ve been moved on rare occasions to make the determination that Paige was lying. Lastly, there is a frequent problem with “yellow journalism” techniques, which is a larger issue and problem that I won’t try to explain thoroughly here.

I’ve been on the issue of yellow sports journalism since James “Bus” Cook successfully committed a disinformational PR campaign on the behalf of Cutler. My interest is in agnatology, and I’m coming out of Political Psychology on this.

The issue regarding the Klis column is how a metaphor contained in the headline was contradicted by the text of the column, in a type of mixed message delivery that hits fans at two levels. Fans respond to the information contained in the headline at a subconscious level. The Framing of the McBath draft selection issue is influenced by the use of metaphors such as “strike out” and many fans don’t consider that McBath’s selection wasn’t a poor choice but rather, his career was impacted by injuries, which involves a different metaphor. Few fans engage in critical thinking to the extent of questioning the accuracy of metaphors but it is these metaphors that are determinative in the formation of attitudes.

******* George Santayana described fanaticism as -- "redoubling your effort after you've forgotten your aim"

by Colinski on Sep 6, 2011 5:23 PM MDT up reply actions  

support from Mason

http://www.maxdenver.com/news/2011/09/04/it-wasnt-just-injuries-but-their-timing-that-doomed-mcbath/

While Quinn was overdrafted given his skill set as a blocking tight end and Smith struggled with the adjustment and pressure of the pro game, McBath’s opportunities to break into the starting lineup were doomed by badly timed injuries.
McBath’s litany of injuries sidelined him for 12 games over the last two seasons, leaving the new administration little on which to gauge his progress. With that, and perhaps an understandable trepidation over his injury history, the Broncos targeted safety early in the draft, … At that point, McBath’s status as a starting-safety-in-waiting behind Dawkins evaporated.

******* George Santayana described fanaticism as -- "redoubling your effort after you've forgotten your aim"

by Colinski on Sep 8, 2011 12:52 PM MDT up reply actions  

who's rotoworld?

Is there a person — such as a fantasy fan?

Hyperbolic commentary which is common on Rotoworld and speaks to the level of maturity of the commentators. Has the author of that statement quantified drafts in order to make this determination or is it — as I suspect — a statement lacking concreteness?

There’s a difference between not turning out and being a bad selection. Quality sites such as CBS/Cooney’s DraftScout & Scott Wright’s DraftCountdown placed Phonz and Quinn near where we drafted them and McBath near the 4th.

McBath’s problems started with injuries and his regression after that is somewhat mysterious but I haven’t heard his attitude was in any way a problem, so it’s tough to do a postmortem.

Quinn seems to have struggled mentally just as Phonz did, but their physical talents were as billed.

Attrition rates are much higher than fans believe so there’s a draft fallacy related to failed expectations. And fans rarely consider that other team’s busts sometime turn into other teams’ treasures — e.g., Lloyd, Vickerson, etc. There’s a 50% attrition rate for 2nd rounders. We’ve given up on them but whether they washout completely has yet to be determined. Phonz is still a starter. McBath is capable of playing somewhere (he did make our initial roster, after all). Quinn also has the physical ability to make it in some capacity. None of them are without talent so Ryan Leaf-type designations are vastly overblown.

******* George Santayana described fanaticism as -- "redoubling your effort after you've forgotten your aim"

by Colinski on Sep 4, 2011 7:07 PM MDT up reply actions  

roster/position group math

Two points — one, Nickel was the one position were we lacked ‘viable’ depth. I like Vaughn. I liked Harris as a darkhorse,too, so I was happy to see him stick, but we have a serious depth problem at this position. Two, FS was the only position carrying more than the allowable 2-deep. Part of the decision was due to position math. It also raises the question of why Bruton was kept but that’s been a hot topic here and the pro-Bruton side’s argument that his STs play made him indispensable seems to have won the day.

Let me add to what Jeremy has done on the roster math issue — Unrein is on the bubble once M. Thomas returns. The only other position running too high is MIKE, but they’d probably run short at interior OL or RT before they’d cut Haggan, especially considering he’s a backup at the other LB positions and a STs ace. Most of the other situations relate to shortages. The problem is that the current depth for many positions needs upgrading but we can’t afford to go shorter, thus players such as Harris remain on the bubble even though they’re safe. Incoming talent must be substantially better to outweigh their lack of familiarity with our system. Places where injuries could create an immediate need, such as WR or RB, would have to rely on the PS for immediate replacements.

******* George Santayana described fanaticism as -- "redoubling your effort after you've forgotten your aim"

by Colinski on Sep 5, 2011 12:02 AM MDT up reply actions  

Mohammed or Irving is likely on the bubble as well

Once DJ is ready to be moved to the active list. Xander’s comments indicate they want to carry 6 LBs active at any given time… Of interest is that in his same comments he rattled off the fringe LBs, and Mohammed got listed before Irving. In the moment it sounded like he was saying something, i.e. Mohammed was making strides at LB, Irving was competing for a STs role, but it was probably nothing.

Have courage for the great sorrows of life and patience for the small ones; and when you have laboriously accomplished your daily task, go to sleep in peace.

by Jeremy Bolander on Sep 5, 2011 3:01 AM MDT up reply actions  

yes

I don’t think they want to get rid of either but Mohamed is a bubble/upgrade candidate. The injury to DJ makes him hard to let go. The same ‘bubble logic’ makes Irving dispensable but they’d like to keep him, too. A typical solution would be to trade someone in order to make the numbers work. I speculated that Haggan was a possible casualty, and his is, but he’s the only experienced backup behind Woodyard at WILL and Miller at SAM, so we can’t lose him yet. The main story here is inexperience and having high draft picks at the position, which causes higher numbers. In a past era, an all-purpose reserve such as Keith Burns allowed the LB numbers to drop, besides doing fairly well on STs.

******* George Santayana described fanaticism as -- "redoubling your effort after you've forgotten your aim"

by Colinski on Sep 5, 2011 10:42 AM MDT up reply actions  

I agree that the "trade solution" likely can't help the roster in this situation

I also don’t see a clear “Burns Solution” that helps keep MM and Irving, since the closest thing is Haggan…who is exactly why Irving and Mohammed are luxuries. Bruton fits the mold, since he can play both FS and SS. Hochestein fits the mold somewhat, but one of his swing positions, FB, is also the swing position of our “extra” TE Virgil Green.

No matter where you look on this roster, assignments are overlapping and all the typical “swing position” rostermath relief outlets are plugged up.

At this point Warren is a luxury that I don’t particularly know they can afford. The DT numbers are killing the roster, but with Bunk and Thomas questionable, Warren becomes the only reasonable relief valve.

Besides the Warren situation, the camp battle between Jarmon and Hunter and Harvey is complicit here. Jarmon as a part time 3-tech and STs player could have alleviated a lot of the current pressure we are feeling, but Hunter turned out to be the STs ace and the most effective producer on defense. unfortunately, he won’t be manning the 3 tech anytime soon. Harvey actually attacks the B-gaps as part of his DE game, so I was hoping that could release a little tension at the DT position, but both McBean and Unrein were kept…. This mix of assignments and traits on the DL confuses me, the Warren decision confuses me, and the resulting roster math issues confuse me… and then I remember that DJ isn’t starting yet, and when he does, the low DT may be the guy he replaces, oddly…

Have courage for the great sorrows of life and patience for the small ones; and when you have laboriously accomplished your daily task, go to sleep in peace.

by Jeremy Bolander on Sep 5, 2011 9:45 PM MDT up reply actions  

various

They’re long at UT but we expected help from others there, e.g., Ayers, Jarmon, etc., so it’s getting crowded. Using numbers to replace quality is a strategy I criticize, but there’s some sense to it if they rotate. My expectation was that we’d need fewer DTs if we could create more third down situations. Maybe they’ll make some adjustments once they see how things function and then Allen can start getting creative.

I can see this as the beginning, so they’re still vanilla, but I was hoping for something more outside-the-box. I’m still struggling to get a stronger sense of how Fox operates.

******* George Santayana described fanaticism as -- "redoubling your effort after you've forgotten your aim"

by Colinski on Sep 6, 2011 4:30 AM MDT up reply actions  

Seriously...you really think Irving is gonna be cut?

Not happening! Mohammed either, they like both which is why they let Bowen hit the road. I wasn’t the least bit surprised. Mohammed is versatile and a solid tackler. Irving is controlled rage w/speed. They’re the future. They’ve found a home.

"Attitude reflects Leadership" Hogblog...aka KSM

by Hogblog on Sep 5, 2011 7:49 AM MDT up reply actions  

not at this point

It’s more a story of numbers. The position is so well-populated that there’s pressure to do something about the situation. The exception to that is when the player is a STs ace. Haggan is, Bruton is, Larsen is, so it’s easy to see how they remain.

Bubble logic isn’t a commentary about the skill of an individual player. At least not past the point of saying he’s a starter or starter grade reserve. It’s merely a way of optimizing the numbers under the roster limits. The emphasis on versatility under McDaniels was all about roster limits, too. Everyone emphasizes it at this point. And some of the hard to fathom roster decisions are traceable to this numbers pressure.

The one lesson that fans need to learn about upgrades is that an expanded number of mediocre players at a position compounds the problem. That’s why the ‘just any’ prospects at positions of need aren’t drafted. More players can compensate for weakness (somewhat) but they can exacerbate it, too, by using up roster spots on mediocre players. Clear upgrades are preferable, and drafting too closely together at a position is not advised. We broke that rule with the LBs, Ss, and TEs, and it’s causing us problems now. The basic idea is that your solutions interfere with each other. ‘Flooding’ a position ensures that it’s likely to be fixed but it also ensures that there will be waste. The same logic holds for drafting at the same position in consecutive years.

The story with McBath is largely an overload at S from drafting too many. We kept too many Ss on the initial roster because of their talent but we had to pare the depth because we had needs elsewhere. Bruton is not a better S but he fills needs on STs whereas McBath’s skills were duplicated on the roster, making him superfluous.

The overall point is that BPA logic (best player available) is often a poor guide to final roster decisions. A backup LT won’t go high in the draft but he’s absolutely essential if your starter becomes injured. An extra S doesn’t help you at that point.

******* George Santayana described fanaticism as -- "redoubling your effort after you've forgotten your aim"

by Colinski on Sep 5, 2011 11:51 AM MDT up reply actions  

When the initial 53 were announced I felt one of the safeties was a placeholder

until we made a move on the waiver wire or free agency, but I didn’t know if it was Bruton or McBath. What I’m wondering is, if Fox would like to keep both Irving and Mohamed is there anyone on the offensive line who’s expendable? I know Hochstein can play several positions but I forget which ones. I see he’s listed as the backup to Kuper. Can he also play center and left guard? We also know Beadles has played right tackle. He’d be a dropoff there, of course, but it’s pretty much a given we’re going to take a hit if anyone gets injured. Is it a possibility that if Franklin went down Beadles would slide to RT and Hochstein to LG? That would put Taylor on the bubble. Or would we replace him with Taylor in order to minimize disrruption? That would make Ramirez more expendable, right? I’d think Clark, as Clady’s backup, would be pretty safe, and Hochstein is the most versatile of the backups. Is Mohamed outplaying Irving or is he just at a less crowded position? If Miller went down would Mohamed actually be a better answer there than Haggan? If not, and if Irving was the more capable linebacker between him and Mohamed, wouldn’t that make Mohamed expendable? Since Thomas is going to return a lot sooner than Warren that suggests that Unrein, as already mentioned, is also on the bubble. I see Virgil Green is also listed as the backup at fullback, so TE isn’t overloaded, and I suspect Fox wants to have five at WR. So that means Unrein, Mohamed, Irving, Ramirez and Taylor are potential expendables. Agree or disagree? How do you think it will shake out? I haven’t taken into account special teams, of course, and probably should have. I plead ignorance.

"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.

by spock on Sep 5, 2011 6:48 PM MDT up reply actions  

replacing OLs

Teams like to minimize OL disruptions when there’s an injury instead of making several moves, so versatile backups are valuable. Hochstein can play anywhere but not necessarily well. Clark is backing up the most valuable position. They would probably leave him alone unless they upgrade. My hope is that they eventually find a quality swing tackle, which Ryan Harris could have been. Ramirez can play either OG or OC. And I think they like him and the RT, Taylor, the most of the all reserve OLs, but that’s a guess. They look like the two most dominant run blockers, besides Franklin. I tried to figure this question out previously and I’ve yet to come up with a good answer. Either Ramirez or Hochstein could be removed because they both cover the entire interior OL, so only one is necessary. The could also go with one less OT, especially if the remaining one can flip, but switching over is harder than people think.

Despite all the talk, I don’t think they’re that anxious to cut any of the reserve OLs right away. Criticism of them as a group playing together in preseason shouldn’t be taken too seriously. Some of them could play reasonably well alongside the starters. There primary role is to backup the starters for now.

Re: LBs. The LBs are a difficult group to pare. The depth at SAM and WILL is problem because of injuries, youth, and the high number at MIKE. Mohamed is expendable but he’s also very versatile and a STs type. I think a move here is going to have to wait till DJ returns, because Mohamed could be a backup WILL, too.

The likeliest cut is Unrein, when Thomas returns. The fact that D Thomas is practicing tells me that they go light at WR for a while. Some WRs would be inactive under normal circumstances. We’ll probably run less 3 WR sets and more 2 TE and 2 back sets. D Thomas appears to be far closer to returning than anyone thought, so they won’t have to hold out for long.

I have no ‘feel’ for any of it yet. Anticipating requires a sense of how Fox thinks and I’ve yet to get a tangible sense on that. Moves that emanate from Fox will be about injuries/inadequacies. Moves that come about because of opportunities will start with the FO. The FO may also start bringing players for tryouts and possible PS roles. Shortages due to injuries at RB and WR would be filled by our PS.

******* George Santayana described fanaticism as -- "redoubling your effort after you've forgotten your aim"

by Colinski on Sep 6, 2011 3:58 AM MDT up reply actions  

Thanks for your responses

Another question: Since Thomas is already one of the 53 members of the squad, why would his return necessitate anyone getting cut? Or are we talking about who might get cut if we added a free agent and Thomas was back (or about to be)?

"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.

by spock on Sep 6, 2011 7:25 AM MDT up reply actions  

movement

I could have explained this better.

Unrein is on the bubble because they have 3 UTs once Thomas returns. There’s also help coming from elsewhere (Ayers, etc.) that lessens the assignment load. Adding a player elsewhere is still an attractive option but they’ll have to pare the roster somewhere.

I see we pared our reserve RT, Herb Taylor. That answers my conjecture concerning who/why we could pare on the OL. This is an obvious upgrade acquisition since he’s already an OT. Notice that it didn’t change the OL roster number of 9 but replaced one member. And he’s an athletic OT, so he has the potential to fill LT besides being a better pass blocker, I would guess.

******* George Santayana described fanaticism as -- "redoubling your effort after you've forgotten your aim"

by Colinski on Sep 6, 2011 5:47 PM MDT up reply actions  

Colinski....a few points.

First, this is a Broncos website so we are talking about how our draft picks actually turn out for us, not someone else. So, for us, our 2009 2nd rounders were complete and total busts, no debate.

Second, You say that there is a 50% attrition rate but you don’t give any time associated with that number. How many 2nd rounders are cut and/or traded before the ink has dried on their contract? A 50% attrition rate means nothing unless you provide context.

Finally, being a starter on any of our 2009 or 2010 teams is not really a badge of honor. For McBath to show promise and to appear to be heading towards a starter’s role was more of a reflection of how bad our team was than how good he was.

by swg777 on Sep 5, 2011 9:10 AM MDT up reply actions  

here's the site

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/10159081

It’s a study by Charlie Casserly, and it’s based on the first four years.

Once off the roster, a player is a bust even though he may become an HOFer for someone else. The problem is that there are many inputs that go unrecognized by the average fan. And there’s a higher attrition rate associated with teams that undergo coaching & scheme changes. Player value switches between teams (as players move to appropriate schemes or friendlier coaches), but the value is not lost. For instance, a player such as Lloyd is someone(s) else’s bust but he’s a tremendous boost to our talent budget. Free agency has created more movement and increased the (apparent) loss of draftees in the process.

I use the term talent budget to describe the net balance of talent on teams. Bringing in a large FA crop shouldn’t be considered a bad thing (although lack of continuity is a negative), And the apparent loss of talent that occurs when draftees are cut loose but replaced by more scheme-appropriate players is a ‘superseding’ issue. Bringing in better or more appropriate talent is a talent upgrade situation rather than a talent drain situation.

I discussed the upgrade situation before reading your post so I’ll merely cite my above post. As I’ve said, McBath regressed because of his injuries so their was some performance problems, which are also partly reliability issues. However, he’s still a functional reserve, so criticism of him has alternate sources. Oddly, he wasn’t criticized in an otherwise controversial 2nd round. The criticism of him has emerged as a retrospective opinion related to McDaniels.

I disagree somewhat on the “upgrade/supersede” issue. Our roster isn’t poor in talent, but it is young in talent. And combined with that, we had a layer of older FAs who weren’t overly talented. Basing individual talent appraisals on team record is a form of weak inference that’s often invalid. And I agree that the huge retention rate of draftees in recent years is the result of having no competition. But that still doesn’t limit a players talent, or else a player such as Miller would be considered untalented by virtue of joining a weak team. The problem at S was in having too much talent, even though it had yet to develop. That’s what happens when you expend 2 – 2s and 2 – 4s on Safeties in a three year period. The problem with many fans is that they’re black & white thinkers. They feel the need to overstate their points in order to validate their criticisms of McDaniels.

******* George Santayana described fanaticism as -- "redoubling your effort after you've forgotten your aim"

by Colinski on Sep 5, 2011 12:47 PM MDT up reply actions  

Reading a Ted Sunquist tweet today, he stated that Shanahan was to impatient to build a team and went after veterans to fill certain positions.

Eventually it played against him and our Broncos. We turned into a mediocre team in his last 4 years as head coach. I don’t want to see that mentality ever again, I want to see EFX rebuild or build from the foundation a solid unit of players that fit the system. So far they seem to be doing just that. They now seem to be patient in selecting the players they want. The Broncos will be much better for it in the long run not the short term as many hope…

I guarantee you there will be rumblings from the media and fans if we aren’t a winning team this year and too me, it’s being square-headed and near-sighted…Focus our eyes on the long term and we can see the improvements every week…

by bfree2bronc on Sep 5, 2011 4:00 PM MDT up reply actions  

Bfree – well said. As Bronco fans we use to be accustomed to always competitive teams and almost yearly playoff appearances. Rome wasn’t built – nor did it fall – in a day. If we want to get back to where we all expect us to be – it won’t happen in a year.

If you and I agreed on everything one of us would be unnecessary

by SSMT on Sep 5, 2011 5:17 PM MDT up reply actions  

It was a problem with Shanahan.

Shanahan basically inherited a team in contention when he took over as head coach, but as the players slipped away so did his ability to fill the spots vacant. Like Rome, Shanahan’s team decayed and crumbled to the ground…

by bfree2bronc on Sep 5, 2011 6:21 PM MDT up reply actions  

Team in Contention...??

In ’93 we were 9-7…. in ’94 we were even worse 7-9. In his first year, they went 8-8 then finally blew up in ’96 (and lost to Jax.) That is far from inheriting a team like Gruden did in Tampa or like Dungy did in Indy.

He brought in Terrell, Mark Schlereth, eddy Mac, howard griffith, matt lepsis, Romo, John Mobley, Alfred williams…. then later on Neil Smith, Trevor Pryce….Didnt bring in Rod smith originally, but smith caught his first pass in ’95 under Shanny.

I’m sure that is not the whole list… but those seem like some significant additions post inheritence.

by Triz06 on Sep 6, 2011 9:38 AM MDT up reply actions  

Sure he inherited the team that Wade Phillips struggled with and I admit he did find a few pieces to getto the show.

Terrel Davis being drafted in the 6th round was luck on Shanny’s part and who in the NFL would of thought that he would do things he did? Nobody. Eddie Mac too. John Elway was the key to winning the 2 SBs we won. Shanahan couldn’t build a strawberry short cake if he had all the ingredients after Elway Davis retired. He couldn’t do it. Instead he would go after high priced free agents instead of building through the draft…

by bfree2bronc on Sep 6, 2011 12:24 PM MDT up reply actions  

Brownco aftermath

There’s been a misunderstanding of the criticism surrounding the Browncos. The problem wasn’t with them per se but with what we weren’t doing. There was lots of experienced depth but no upcoming players being groomed around that time. The decline in 2006 was superficially surprising but the demographics told the story, we were getting old, and we began to replace stellar vets with scrub vets, and the fall from 2005’s defense to 2008’s defense is an ugly story.

2006’s draft marked the end of the draft drought but it created false hopes because our holes were far bigger than the small number of draftees could fill. The reason it wasn’t apparent to fans is because the process of team-building is slow and gradual, and there’s a lagged delay before it takes hold. The retirement of many significant Broncos (e.g., Rod Smith, Nalen, Wilson, Lynch, etc.) occurs during the 2006 – 2008 period. The earlier draft drought (2000 – 2005) was accompanied by a net loss of FA talent. That was all in the pipeline and the retiring stars were replaced by pedestrian talent. An interesting and graphic way of seeing our decline (besides the statistical measures of 3rd to 30th) is to look at the 2005 defensive depth chart alongside the 2008 one. Besides the stark contrast in talent, our age is apparent.

One factor that tends to missed about the current team is the vastly improved age demographic. It may seem trivial but it’s significant that we have so many players around their mid to late 20s. Also, drafts are important in that you grow the team and provide continuity but a greater portion of the roster comes in through free agency. Unlike the teams of the 2006 – 2008 period, our UFAs are now much younger, yet old enough to have already gained experience. Our UDFAs also have a good age profile.

******* George Santayana described fanaticism as -- "redoubling your effort after you've forgotten your aim"

by Colinski on Sep 5, 2011 6:49 PM MDT up reply actions  

Correct me if I'm wrong

but I always thought part of the problem with the Browncos was they were as a group adequate in run defense but seriously deficient at rushing the passer. We were regularly getting picked apart by Manning, yet Haywood and Pryce were allowed to leave via free agency in successive years. Shanny seemed to think he could fix the pass defense with corners, first Bailey, then Williams and Foxworth. Was he really that clueless when it came to defense, or am I just being a backseat driver? I’m okay with Bailey, because Shanny expended the commodity he was most capable of replacing. In fact, it was a masterstroke. But it seemed he never quite got it that he needed pass rushers, or else was a poor talent evaluator of that position/attribute. And of course his earlier misses began to catch up with him.

"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.

by spock on Sep 5, 2011 7:06 PM MDT up reply actions  

you're correct

They were much more proficient at run defense than pass defense in 2005, and they allowed yards but not points.

They were slow to recognize the value of holding onto defensive players and missed on a few pass rushers, too. They really didn’t seem to be have been keeping up on trends. The mom and pop management techniques and failure to recognize their weakness in addressing free agency don’t speak well for how they were run during that period. And one really has to wonder what the relationship between Shanahan and the defensive coaches was like. The early 2000s defenses were often at least as good as the offenses so the repeated firings of DCs doesn’t make sense. There are signs of organizational problems that go way back.

******* George Santayana described fanaticism as -- "redoubling your effort after you've forgotten your aim"

by Colinski on Sep 5, 2011 8:54 PM MDT up reply actions  

Rotoworld is essentially a "ticker" of information

It’s a useful site. Perhaps this time they just aren’t saying what you want them to say?

Come to think of it, what exactly is it that you’re trying to say? That 2nd round in the 2009 draft was horrible. That draft was horrible. Thanks for spiking our koolaid with a handful of maybes, and thanks for reminding us that anything is possible, but as a practical matter… McBath, Quinn and Smith were overdrafted and those sketchy decisions look pretty stupid right now.

I probably won’t join you in the Alphonso Smith/Richard Quinn fan club.

Confucious says: It's pretty tough to intercept a pitch in the backfield.
To the eye candy in the back: Sorry Rahim. Sorry Goody. Not now Vaughn. With only 35 pass yards to WRs this year (1's v 1's), Elvis and Von aren't giving you the chance to 'see ball, get ball'. Poor guys :=(

by Rodney A on Sep 5, 2011 12:16 PM MDT up reply actions  

Can't say he'll be missed, hope he can have some sort of a career elsewhere.

It wasn't him Charlie, it was you. Remember that night in the Garden you came down to my dressing room and said, "Kid, this ain't your night. We're going for the price on Wilson." Ya remember that? 'This ain't your night.' My night I could of taken Wilson apart. ~ Brando aka Terry Malloy

by Zac Man on Sep 4, 2011 6:26 PM MDT reply actions  

McBath

McBath, at the time, appeared to be a solid pick. Not terrible (aka R Quinn), but not great. I thought the guy had talent. But his inability to stay healthy was his undoing, IMO.

Regarding Mohammed or Iving: I think Mohammed goes. He looked slow and out of place on too many occasions vs. the Cardinals backups.

If you and I agreed on everything one of us would be unnecessary

by SSMT on Sep 5, 2011 7:06 AM MDT reply actions  

Totally Agree With You

+1

Of the 3 picks, McBath made the most sense at the time. Quinn and Smith were just down right awful, and the picks we gave up to get both of the guys can be seen today. We have no depth on this team outside of the TE/WR positions. The 1st rounder given away for Smith forced McDaniels to give up even more to get Tebow in the 1st the following year.

I really hope Ayers and Moreno show something this year or that draft will go down as one of the worst drafts ever.

by AtomicLeo on Sep 5, 2011 10:14 AM MDT up reply actions  

various thoughts

2009’s draft is looking more like 2007’s in that the overall quality of the entire draft was poor. We knew this at the time but there wasn’t much we could do about it. Many of the picks had a niche quality to them, which means they were a good match to a specific profile, which should increase their chances of filling a specific need but not necessarily becoming a star.

Given the situation, retrospective bias is misleading and becomes egregious when critical fans pretend to know what knowledgeable sources did not. I’m willing to entertain opinions of players but opinions that lack critical analysis that would justify the conclusions are merely boorish rants. I often engage in post hoc analysis of past drafts in order to determine if past drafts could have been better is we’d gone another route. Some retrospective bias is unavoidable in the process — since eventual development is considered — but the main point is to objectively examine all the busts we might have mistakenly picked instead, in a sort of reverse cherry-picking process.

The best selection at a given point in the draft is not necessarily a success, even though it was the best choice at the time. The disingenuous framing of draft selections as mistakes is often the result of ignoring baserates and the context of the actual decision. Fans have a stereotypical image of how a high pick should perform but rarely consider the baserate including busts. In other words, a draft is a failure in their eyes if it fails to be as good as the best case scenario — which leaves a lot of room for criticism. Retrospective bias is most egregious when it merely restates actual baserates, thus predicting what is likely in stopped clock fashion (as in predicting the time of day). Retrospective bias also illegitimately frames probability as certainty, and partial knowledge as omniscience. An honest re-statement of criticisms of past drafts would candidly admit to what wasn’t known at the time. And statements player’s about projected rounds would show evidence of scouting and efforts to objectively rank players in some manner.

There’s a lot more to this but let me jump to another topic. Pardon the tone here; many of my comments are not directed at you.

A final (for now) element of draft fallacies is “bread and circuses” element. Many fans love football in the same way a stalker loves his victim. Analysis is registered in the same way that the crowds in the Coliseum registered their approval and disapproval of performances. This type of environment is not conducive to serious analysis, and a bigger problem is that the boorish fans are attempting to sway opinion through the loudness of their voices rather than the quality of their arguments, which is a groupthink environment. There’s political-psychological reasons for this that speak to the personalities of these fans but I won’t attempt to analyze that here. The image of a patron in the Coliseum registering his disapproval with his thumb down contains the core idea.

******* George Santayana described fanaticism as -- "redoubling your effort after you've forgotten your aim"

by Colinski on Sep 5, 2011 3:00 PM MDT up reply actions  

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