Keys to beating the Patriots
STOP THEIR OFFENSE.
Obviously, that's easier said then done, but here are some of the keys to beating the mighty Patriots
- Hit and pressure Tom Brady! No QB outside of Tim Tebow likes to be hit, pressure him, mess up his timing, cause a fumble or 2 and just make him hurt
Need alot more of this from VonDoom and crew
- Someone please cover Aaron Hernandez? and don't let Gronk kill us!
Bruton, Carter, DJ, Haggan, Von, Woodyard and god even Joe Mays hit these guys before they release off the line.
- Champ shut down Welker, follow him everywhere.
Take brady's favorite target out of the game, pick him off when he challenges you
- Goodman don't mess this up!
Don't let Chad Johnson beat you over the top, Make brady pay for going after you
- Cause a Turnover or 4, just win the Turnover battle
New England is like 105-3 or something crazy like that when they win the turnover battle. No fumbles or INTS Tebow, McGahee no costly fumbles, same goes for you ball. Champ, Goody, Carter, Bruton, Moore, anybody on the D, CAUSE TURNOVERS
- Offense needs to come out quick again, and keep it going
They're ranked 32nd for a reason. McGahee, Ball, Tebow and Johnson...run it down their throat. Tebow keep dealing it, hit a big play or two.
If we can get a two score lead early and then win the TOP(Time of Possession) and slowly add on to it we can win this. Just keep Brady off the field and keep the points off the board, we can win this, Obviously.
- NO TURNOVERS!!!!!
Can't stress this enough.
This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR
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They’re ranked 32nd for a reason
The Patriots are ranked 31st in pass yardage, so this:
McGahee, Ball, Tebow and Johnson…run it down their throat
doesn’t apply. In fact, the Patriots had a top 10 rushing defense before Brandon Spikes (excellent run-stopping LB) and SS Patrick Chung (excellent run-stopper) were injured for an extended time. They were out Week 15 in Denver. Luckly for you, they played against Buffalo and will play this week. Also:
don’t let Gronk kill us! hit these guys before they release off the line.
Have you seen Gronkowski at all this year? Or are you trying to be funny? I don’t know which of your CBs/LBs you envision jamming Gronkowski off the line, but I have this funny feeling that wouldn’t end well for your Broncos. It’d probably be a smarter decision to legitimately cover him and try to jam Welker or Branch, guys who have much smaller, less imposing frames.
Can I Scream?
by Adam Fox on Jan 9, 2012 7:40 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
Ah my bad, about the D
Always here how the patriots have the 32nd rank defense on NFLN, But either way, still not good.
We’re the number 1 rushing offense in the league, sure does apply. Ran for almost 150 yards on you guys in 1Q. Sure you were down a few players, but still
I’ve only seen a few highlights of Gronk, didnt see much of him against us though. That comment was aimed at Aaron Hernandez more, though i imagine he would be split out wide. But still jam them at the line, slow them down
32 belongs to Green Bay
And you’re right, it’s not good. But poor passing D seems to be the common denominator among three of the league’s strongest Super Bowl contenders this year (GB, NE and NO, in that order).
The Broncos have a very good rushing offense. I was just explaining how that 31st ranking was unrelated to the rush defense.
Can I Scream?
My bad again haha
I dont know how he fair against your pass D. Our pass game is different each week, sometimes we run it 50 times a game, we run 30 times and pass for like 100 yards, or Tebow goes for 300+
But things go hand in hand...
Like our #1 rushing is really only number because our passing is 32. Same with NE.. they have a good pass defense because there is no reason to run on them since their pass defense is terrible. And you probably can’t run in the 3rd and 4th Qtr because you’re playing comeback ball.
Almost any team in the league can move the ball up and down the field on NE as long as they keep the turnover and point differential reasonable. Thats how Pitt beat them… and that’s how Buffalo beat them. If the score gets out of wack.. or you turn the ball over… you become 1 dimensional.
GreenBay has the 32nd ranked defense.
And Gronk, not Hernandez, is widely considered the best TE currently playing in the league with some comparing him to Ditka. You didn’t see much of him because the Broncos were doing everything they could to cover him allowing Hernandez to do his thing.
It is what it is
New England improved
When they switched from the 4-3 to 3-4 and didn’t allow Denver to score again. Say what you want about the fumbles but New England was getting tomyou guys in the backfield after starting the game giving up 9 yards a carrynornsoething ridiculous like that.
they were big
but when you guys trued to respond in the 2nd half, the pats defense stepped up big 90% of the time.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
If Gronkowski is lined up tight to the line, I would want to maul him as much as the refs allow at the line with a LB.
Then I would have a DB pick him up off the jam.
Never let them see you bleed.
My shit always works sometimes.
by the_prodigal_fan on Jan 9, 2012 8:52 PM MST up reply actions
Works best.
Sometimes a DE is better to jam, since Gronk is pretty big.
It is what it is
I think yards per play is a better quality stat then yards per game
Not saying its perfect – but its less likely to be skewed by catch up yards vs prevent defences for example.
Anyway the 2011 season stats at Pro Football Reference gives me some hope for next week – New England gave up 7,1 yards per pass attempt (4th worst), 4.6 yards per run attempt (9th worse tied) and 6.2 yards per play overall (4th worst)
As Adam says – Chung and Spikes are back. But the Pats are still vulnerable defensively, Tebow has his mojo back and the Broncos should be confident of scoring points. Whether we can score enough is another matter…
What would Blackie Lawless do? Well he'd probably wait till after the playoffs are over before speculating as to what happens in the offseason....
by British Bronco on Jan 10, 2012 7:03 AM MST up reply actions
Basically...
Our defense has to play much better than they played last time. Our offense had their best start of the season, but I’m not sure that would have been enough even if the turnovers hadn’t happened.
Here are some reasons for optimism.
1) David Bruton and Quinton Carter look improved compared to a few weeks ago.
2) The emergence of our “Big Dime” formation. I think we might be running this a lot.
3) Is there an outside chance Brian Dawkins will be able to play? I think he didn’t play against New England.
Big Dime?
How does that formation go? 4 safetys and 2 corners? or 3 safetys and 3 corners?
Not sure about Dawk, i doubt it though. Keep hearing this might be a career threatening injury. I’d love dawk to play though
I believe we had
Champ, Goodman, Carter, Bruton, Harris, Rafael Bush as our six backs.
Put Dawkins in there instead of whoever the weakest link is, and there might be a breath of a chance.
idk about Dawkins in coverage
id rather see him on running downs blitzing or in run support. It’s bad that Bush surpassed Moore on the depth chart
Pats will use Ridley in those situations to run the ball hard.
They’ve been working on their run-game, with rookie Nate Solder(77, from CO.) coming in as an extra tackle/power-TE. Pats loaded up to help the run-game after last year’s playoff elimination, when the Jets used lots of dime to take away Brady’s receiving options.
It is what it is
A few weeks ago it was Quinton Carter and Raheem Moore
David Bruton is an upgrade due to his experience. He can communicate better as of now. Raheem show flashes of greatness however this season, he just needs some developmental time.
The Definition of an optimist: A Buffalo Bills fan waiting at Buffalo Niagara International Airport for the Bills to return from winning the Super Bowl.
Bigs
I see the Patriots taking away DT and Decker is probably out but, our offense is morphing right in front of us with 7 offensive linemen in the line up coupled with TEs. The Patriots will see a different team in two ways. One, our TEs will play a bigger role than at any time this year, and, our offense is finally opening up where the opponent cannot stack the box like they have been. We may be 13.5 point underdogs but we ARE going to give them everything they can handle and more me thinks.
"Peace, a journey without distance to a place we have never left."
"I see the Patriots taking away DT"
LOL. Did you watch the game last week? Or any of the games in the last 2 months?
[This space for sale]
They say the cool is all over me..
He meant they'll likely double him most of the game
the Steelers never really doubled him at all. The Patriots will be content to allow Tebow to throw to Royal, Willis and the TEs. The defense is vulnerable, but they can absolutely take away a team’s strength and force you to beat them another way.
Can I Scream?
Yeah I know. But I really dont think they will. The only reason it "worked out" last time, was because we turned the ball over and gift-wrapped you 3 scoring drives.
The smartest thing for the Patriots to do, is copy the same game plan as Buffalo, KC, and yes, the Steelers. Stack the box, and man-up in coverage. Make Tebow beat you with his arm. Otherwise, if you double team or play any kind of cover 2, we will be able to run easily, which is what we would prefer to do anyway. I dont think Tebow will be completely ineffective, but I doubt he will repeat last Sunday’s performance if put in a similar situation.
"..who knows what can happen… the ball is oblong and bounces wierd."
They say the cool is all over me..
Steelers game plan was terrible
They brought their safeties up in the box the entire game allowing Tebow to throw deep. NE will leave one safety deep and make Tebow work uderneath. He is not that accurate and if you make him dip and dunk down the field he will eventually kill the drive himself with his misfires.
One safety deep? Ok. Thomas and royal goes deep.
Safety chooses one. QB throws to the other. That easy. One safety isnt enough to provide some kind of “deep pass security blanket”. Even Tebow is good enough to look off a single safety. SEE: Eddie Royal touchdown against the Steelers.
You either play back to defend the pass, or play up to defend the run. Pick your poison. If we execute like we did against Pittsburgh, it really will be that easy.
"..who knows what can happen… the ball is oblong and bounces wierd."
They say the cool is all over me..
Great
And if you keep sending those 2 guys deep every passing play the Patriots will key in on it which will lead to turnovers. It’s quite easy to cover someone when you know what route they are going to be running. It isn’t as simple as your trying to make it out to be.
And if you start defending the deep ball, we'll call short passing plays, QB draws, and runs.
But really, our offense works the other way around. We run and run until you get over-aggressive playing the run…and then hit you over the top for big passing plays until you ease up. Your problem is, that if you DON’T get aggressive against the run, we will just continue to run. And that’s exactly what we did to the Patriots last game. Unfortunately we killed ourselves with stupid turnovers and had to abandon our game plan.
Actually, it really is as simple as that. The problem is execution, not theory.
"..who knows what can happen… the ball is oblong and bounces wierd."
They say the cool is all over me..
Yes
Thatbis exactly what NE is going to try to do thatis my point. Make Denver run the ball with 8 in the box or throw short passes. Tebow isn’t accurate enough to sustain a drive where he has to throw the ball 5 or more times and it will stall eventually because of it.
And you seem to be ignoring the fact that the defense has just as much to do with the turnovers as Denver does. NE has led the AFC in turnovers the last 2 years it’s no coincidence that Denver lost the ball so often against them.
Thats what everyone has been doing to is
stack the box and let Tebow beat them. It’s been working, and worked well against you guys already. Your offense just outscored us
by Scotty Payne on Jan 10, 2012 10:53 PM MST up reply actions
You had
One TD after the first quarter. The Patriots defense effectively shut down the Denver offense after getting ripped apart in the first quarter which has become a common theme the last few weeks. Spotted 17 to Miami and 21 to Buffalo before coming back to win.
The Patriots defense has not given up more than 1 score in the second half per game for the last 7 weeks. If they can just pull their heads out of their asses in the first quarter they will be very dangerous.
We will need a fast start and must win the turnover battle.
If we don’t kill ourselves with penalties and there are no blown officating calls this should be very entertaiing.
Considering
This has been the most poorly officiated football season I’ve ever had the privilege of watching … yes.
Can I Scream?
Let's go Baby! Let's GOOO!!1

-Champ Bailey's calendar goes straight from March 31st to April 2nd; no one fools Champ Bailey-
-The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese -
For those with expectations of the game.
The last 4th of the season (arguable the last half) has been a tale of two halves. Usually, the pats offense starts out slow in the first half (mostly picks up mid-late in the 2nd quarter), and the defense does adequate.
Its the second half that the broncos have to watch out for. Our “31st ranked defense” has not allowed more than 7 points the entire 2nd half for the last 7 GAMES of the season. Yes, they are much better than you give them credit for. They will have Spikes and Chung coming back, which will be of GREAT boosts to their run defense, and deep pass defense.
Our 2nd half offense has looked dominant in the 2nd half as well. Don’t sleep on the run either.
This is what most pats fans will expect. For me, I expect the broncos to be up 17-10 at the half. From their? Who knows.
I will have me own keys to the game on the pats site sometime this week before thursday. Here’s to a great game saturday. :)
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
yeah i watched that buffalo game
49 straight is crazy.
Im not sleeping on your D or not giving them credit, just confident we can run on you guys, since we’re the #1 rush offense.
You too, have a great game…just not that great since the Broncos will win ;) haha
Wrong Axe...Colts scored 21 points in the 4th qtr of week 13
Win, lose or draw, we are the Denver Broncos! 13-3 Baby!!! Until we ain't!
yeah, but the Colts game was just a weird experiment
There were two starting on defense who didn’t even have proper introduction graphics on TV, just still photos. Receivers played CB and CB Nate Jones, who just came to the team, played safety for the first time. That game doesn’t count.
Keep the faith!
every game counts
as either a win or a loss, don’t matter who you play or who you are playing on your team.
The fact is, Coach B just felt overconfident with that game and didn’t think that Indy could pull out an upset, so he decided to start some other players to see what he had in them.
I hope he does the same thing again this week.
The Definition of an optimist: A Buffalo Bills fan waiting at Buffalo Niagara International Airport for the Bills to return from winning the Super Bowl.
right right right.
Plus I made a post on that, with regards to garbage time and whatnot: http://www.patspulpit.com/2011/12/4/2610655/the-prevent
So minus the colts game. Look at the past 8 games. Then I’ll say 7 out of 8 games the pats defense has not allowed more than 7 points in the second half.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
Control the clock
We have got to have 4 minute drives to eat up time and keep Brady and co off the field. We can do some of that via the run game but some of that sort of stuff has to come with the 3 step drop dink and dunk game too.
And we’ve got to collapse the pocket from the front as well as the sides. This would be a very good week to rotate McBean in much more frequently. Or play Haggan at MLB on blitzes. They have to be motivated to show something because they are FA after this season ends. And having two fresh extra bodies against the NE interior OL could wear them down a bit.
Anyone but Mays
Dude’s just not good. I think he missed tackles on every one of Redman’s long runs Sunday.
My Keys To Victory....
- Don’t turn the ball over.
- Stay disciplined in the run game and make Brady pass to move the ball down the field.
- Limit RAC / YAC
- Make effective adjustments at halftime (Off&Def)
- Play with a chip on your (our) shoulder.
The 7 keys to beating the Patriots
#1. Brady trips over Giselle and gets a bum ankle but still plays
#2. Patrick Chung realizes he has a rare medical condition that keeps him from playing at low altitudes such as Boston.
#3. Dan Koppen gets a ankle injury and cannot play
#4. Danny Woodhead gets in a spat with his girlfriend and is too emotionally distraught to even show up for the game
#5. During the first few series of the game, the Patriots lose their starting defensive tackles
#6. The night before the game some insane Broncos fan sets a Patriot’s coaches house on fire (I’d rather just prank phone call Brady all through the night – but some people are just sick – thoughts and prayers go out to Coach Morris for a speedy recovery).
#7. Reserved for Elway
The Definition of an optimist: A Buffalo Bills fan waiting at Buffalo Niagara International Airport for the Bills to return from winning the Super Bowl.
see! It's starting to work!
actually I knew that (didn’t know it until I looked up who your starting center was tho) – I threw it in to see if you guys would point that out or not lol
The Definition of an optimist: A Buffalo Bills fan waiting at Buffalo Niagara International Airport for the Bills to return from winning the Super Bowl.
We're total and complete football nerds
over at PP. We don’t miss a beat when it comes to each transaction and minor detail of the team.
Can I Scream?
Such as the "Ross Ventrone" phenomina. lol
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
1 Key to winning the game: No turnovers.
We would have won last time we played. We were able to easily run the ball at will. I recall something like 160 yards in the first quarter alone. If we dont have 3 consecutive turnovers in the second quarter, we win that game.
The best way to keep Tom Brady from scoring, is to keep him off the field.
[This space for sale]
They say the cool is all over me..
agree
NE is too good to give them extra possessions. We gave them 17 free points off short fields in the 2ndQ (not to mention any lost points we might have gotten), which then forced us out of our strength which is running it down their throat. TT has improved as a passer, but that is too much to ask of him at this stage in his career.
Things will be tougher running this time with Kuper out, and them getting Spikes and Chung back… but if we can limit the TOs, we can keep this close and then who knows what can happen… the ball is oblong and bounces wierd….
Oh I like that
who knows what can happen… the ball is oblong and bounces wierd….
Congratulations cjfarls, you have just won the open space in my sig
"..who knows what can happen… the ball is oblong and bounces wierd."
They say the cool is all over me..
I dont think you guys gave us 17 free points.
2 of those fumbles were FORCED not GIVEN (like the punt. lol).
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
dozens of hits like that happen every game, and dont cause fumbles
NE gets credit for playing good DEF, and solid technique and gang tackling certainly can cause fumbles… but recovering them is pretty much randomn (and we were decidely UNLUCKY in that you got all 3), and we certainly could’ve had better ball protection on those plays (which is what Teboner and I are advocating).
The ultimate point is that if DEN don’t give NE 3 turnovers and shortfields, killing our drives and 3 extra possessions that resulted in 17 points, the first game is a whole lot different. NE isn’t immune to fumbles either, and if we get a couple of those in the playoff game… again, the teams are not as far a part as the score from the first game indicates.
Hits like those also create fumbles too. Its not like the player up and decided he was not going to protect the ball as much when he fumbled it.
The McGahee fumble was from one of our guys hitting the ball out. That’s how fumbles are caused. The second one Anderson read what tebow was about to do, and he sacked fumbled tebow before he pitched the ball out. That was ALL defense there.
NE gets credit for playing good DEF, and solid technique and gang tackling certainly can cause fumbles… but recovering them is pretty much randomn (and we were decidely UNLUCKY in that you got all 3), and we certainly could’ve had better ball protection on those plays (which is what Teboner and I are advocating).
Part of the NFL is luck. But you can’t blame how games turn out om luck. Shit happens, and they always start from a source, whether the ball was tipped in the air by your own players helmet, or someones hands, to which way the ball bounces after the fumble. You also have to take into account where a player is positioned when the ball bounces, and it turns out we were in better position to get the fumble.
The ultimate point is that if DEN don’t give NE 3 turnovers and shortfields, killing our drives and 3 extra possessions that resulted in 17 points, the first game is a whole lot different. NE isn’t immune to fumbles either, and if we get a couple of those in the playoff game… again, the teams are not as far a part as the score from the first game indicates.
NO team is immune to fumbles. Or INTs for that matter. We can throw Ifs around. Pats fans have been doing it when we lost to buffalo when 3/4 Brady’s INTs were tipped in the air, and Ocho dropping a TD grab. Lots of ifs can be thrown out there but ultimately it is what it is.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
absolutely
but saying its likely that you all get 3 turnovers compared to none for DEN again is not predictive. Thus, the SCORE from the first game is also not predictive of the teams relative strengths.
The fumbles could just as easily go the other way, and the chances of DEN beating NE if we win the TO battle by 3 is probably 90%… luck is HUGE in the NFL game.
You guys are, and should be, favored in this game. The ability of our offense to consistently execute our run-heavy, deep shot scheme to score enough points to beat your offense is unlikely. But if DEN plays a clean game without turnovers, we have a punchers shot at winning. Thats all we’re saying.
but saying its likely that you all get 3 turnovers compared to none for DEN again is not predictive. Thus, the SCORE from the first game is also not predictive of the teams relative strengths.
I didn’t predict anything of the sort, nor did I say it was likely.
The fumbles could just as easily go the other way, and the chances of DEN beating NE if we win the TO battle by 3 is probably 90%… luck is HUGE in the NFL game.
Weeeeell it depends on the circumstance and where the ball bounces and where the players are just so coincidentally be positioned. Well… in other words luck. lol But like you said, Luck is part of every nfl game. It’s obvious turnovers make a difference in any game. It’s another thing, of how I said, that WE forced 2/3 of those turnovers against you guys in our last meeting, and we were in position to recover them (coincidentally of ocurse).
You guys are, and should be, favored in this game. The ability of our offense to consistently execute our run-heavy, deep shot scheme to score enough points to beat your offense is unlikely. But if DEN plays a clean game without turnovers, we have a punchers shot at winning. Thats all we’re saying.
Of course, and I could give a crap about who is favored in a playoff game. In my eyes, anything can happen in a game that is this important, and any team can surprise anyone.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
Also
I don’t expect to get 3 turnovers from you guys. But don’t expect to run all over us either. Having spikes and chung back make us much much more of a better run defense. And I mean MUCH more. lol
But I’m not going to guarantee anything. I just say don’t expect to. Not saying you definitely won’t (you guys are the #1 rushing offense for christ sake. lol).
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
It wasn't McGahee
It was Ball that fumbled the first one. Ball didn’t cover the ball up in traffic. It wasn’t a strip, it was luck of the bounce. McGahee was injured at that point of the game and wasn’t in the lineup much if at all. So basically, it was a mental error on our third string RB. He probably learned a little lesson from that, at least the Bronco faithful hope so.
On the Tebow fumble, Anderson is Tebow’s read in the option, so he is left unblocked. Tebow either misreads the play or bobbles it prior to the pitch. Again, this was not a blatant strip of the ball. I honestly hope Anderson plays that undisciplined against the option this week, because that play is normally a gash with a DE crashing that hard. Once again, luck of the bounce.
"You’re only great if you win something. I mean, Alexander wasn’t Alexander the Mediocre or Alexander the Average. He was Alexander the Great, and there’s a reason for it."-Shannon Sharpe
Looking at it again
Brace looked to have stripped it. It may not have been SOLID covering of the ball, but Brace took one side of the nose, turned it, and it came loose: http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2011121811/2011/REG15/patriots@broncos#menu=highlights&tab=recap
Wrong on the second one. Dead wrong. lol Anderson did come free yes, but Anderson READ the pitch play and went after the ball before tebow pitched it, instead of tebow himself. That was a GOOD, Disciplined defensive play.
Those two fumbles will not happen if the defender did not do something to MAKE it a fumble. Those were mostly DEFENSIVE (not yelling I use caps to enunciate a word. lol) plays because they FORCED them. If Brace didnt use his hand on the nose of the ball and turn and strip it, thats not a fumble. If Anderson didnt read and react to the option play, that is not a fumble. Thus, they were defensive plays, and there is no way around it.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
I looked at the ball one again to be sure.
Looking at it he had alright covering of the ball. But it didn’t look bad because I saw his arm around it, which is not really considered bad covering of the ball. I also still saw Brace knocking it out, so my essential look at the play again still remains about the same, with some slight noted difference in how Ball covered the ball.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
Obviously, you've never played
Backs are taught at the PeeWee level to cover the ball with both arms in traffic. Ball was in traffic and did not cover the ball, period. On the Tebow fumble, he clearly has the ball braced against his left shoulder pad, he doesn’t have a firm grip on the ball even before contact with Anderson. Simms even notes this in the replay. He is not in a good position to secure the ball and run with it or make the pitch. In the option, if a defensive end crashes to the QB that hard, it opens up the outside. Tebow makes the pitch to Royal like he is suppose to, that play gains some decent yardage and the drive continues.
"You’re only great if you win something. I mean, Alexander wasn’t Alexander the Mediocre or Alexander the Average. He was Alexander the Great, and there’s a reason for it."-Shannon Sharpe
1. Backs dont always hold the ball with both arms in traffic. Ive seen enough running plays with the pats and raiders to know this. Just because they have the ball in one when they make a cut, doesn’t mean they do not hold a firm grip on the ball.
Now, I didnt think the grip was firm, but he held it nicely, but obviously not enough because Brace knocked the ball right out of his arms. Doesn’t mean he didn’t hold it right, just means that Brace’s force was enough to pop the ball out.
2. Dead wrong again. lol Go look at the videos on the right side and look for “Anderson forces fumble” http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2011121811/2011/REG15/patriots@broncos#menu=highlights&tab=recap
You clearly see the ball NOT MOVING and when Anderson makes contact the ball gets jarred loose. Its on slow motion video for you to see for yourself.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
*"Anderson Forces and Recovers fumble"
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
I've seen the replay a bunch
And it’s a bonehead play on Tebow’s part and Anderson’s. Anderson is lucky because when he crashes, there is no outside contain. Nine out of ten times, Tebow makes that pitch and its a gash because Anderson is out of position. Tebow should have pitched as soon as he saw Anderson committ to the dive back, because did bite a little on the fake. To Anderson’s credit, he did redirect pretty quickly but he was still out of position.
Just because you’ve seen it, doesn’t make it the right way to carry in traffic, It is definitely not the preffered way. Backs that don’t cover it up tend to get the turnover rep. Look at Tiki Barber before and after he was schooled on it. It’s a lapse in fundamentals that happens far too often in the NFL.
"You’re only great if you win something. I mean, Alexander wasn’t Alexander the Mediocre or Alexander the Average. He was Alexander the Great, and there’s a reason for it."-Shannon Sharpe
And it’s a bonehead play on Tebow’s part and Anderson’s. Anderson is lucky because when he crashes, there is no outside contain. Nine out of ten times, Tebow makes that pitch and its a gash because Anderson is out of position. Tebow should have pitched as soon as he saw Anderson committ to the dive back, because did bite a little on the fake. To Anderson’s credit, he did redirect pretty quickly but he was still out of position.
No anderson’s fault there is no outside contain. Seems to me Anderson read the option play, and as you said re-directed quickly, and hit tebow and caused the fumble. The play was way too quick for any QB to make a split decision. It was very quick, and to ANderso’s credit he reacted quick enough to disrupt the play. THAT is a good DEFENSIVE play, where he read it, and forced the ball out. We can sit here and think of if ands or butts, but it is what it is. And coming from a Raider fan as well who has seen a lot of plays where things could have gone our way, it is what it is.
Just because you’ve seen it, doesn’t make it the right way to carry in traffic, It is definitely not the preffered way. Backs that don’t cover it up tend to get the turnover rep. Look at Tiki Barber before and after he was schooled on it. It’s a lapse in fundamentals that happens far too often in the NFL.
It is not the preferred way, but backs do them. I have seen McGahee do it against us in week 15 I believe. I have seen McFadden, Bush, BJGE, Ridley, I have seen a lot of backs do it. Even AP.
The point is, the ball can still be secured. Just not AS secured if your holding it with both hands. I do see them cover the ball up right before they run into someone, but Ball was trying to make a cut, and our LB caught him, then Brace came in and literally punched the ball out. That was a defensive play. Yes Ball has some part to be blamed, but it was the defense that forced it out, not Ball.
There is no two ways around it. They were both defensive plays. Not saying they will always happen, and I am not saying it will happen when we face each other. On THAT day, two of those fumbles came from good defensive plays and they happen to bounce in the pats direction. They happen. :)
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
I disagree
Both are clearly more mistakes made by our offensive players than anything the Pats defense did to force the issue. The ball gets swiped at on every play, very rarely does it pop out like that unless the offensive player is being lax, which was the case in both these instances. Ball could have and should have secured it better and so should have Tebow.
If Anderson was playing on my defense, I’d pat him on the back for making a play on the ball and chew his a$$ for not having contain which is his primary responsibility. If he crashes that hard inside this week, the Broncos have ways of exploiting it with better designed plays than that particular look. It was a bad move on his part that got covered up by the turn over. It happens in every game. Playing undisciplined like that will get you gashed more often than not against this offense. Anderson rolled the dice there and won, but it’s not likely to happen again.
"You’re only great if you win something. I mean, Alexander wasn’t Alexander the Mediocre or Alexander the Average. He was Alexander the Great, and there’s a reason for it."-Shannon Sharpe
Both are clearly more mistakes made by our offensive players than anything the Pats defense did to force the issue. The ball gets swiped at on every play, very rarely does it pop out like that unless the offensive player is being lax, which was the case in both these instances. Ball could have and should have secured it better and so should have Tebow.
I disagree. If he doesn’t punch it out the way he did, it will not come out.
If Anderson was playing on my defense, I’d pat him on the back for making a play on the ball and chew his a$$ for not having contain which is his primary responsibility. If he crashes that hard inside this week, the Broncos have ways of exploiting it with better designed plays than that particular look. It was a bad move on his part that got covered up by the turn over. It happens in every game. Playing undisciplined like that will get you gashed more often than not against this offense. Anderson rolled the dice there and won, but it’s not likely to happen again.
It happens to a lot of players on option offenses and play action. I would pat him on the back for reading it just in time, and reacting very quickly to making the play. He seemed disciplined enough to adjust and not over pursue like some players would.
This seems like its going to go around in circles. But one thing neither of us can argue against, is that the Ball fumble would NOT be a fumble if Brace didn’t punch the ball out, and the tebow fumble will not be a fumble if Anderson didn’t read the play right and attack the ball. Those are two things that CANNOT be dis-proven no matter how way you are spinning it.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
And if Ball secures it, it doesn't come out anyway no matter how hard Brace punches at it
It’s not like he put a bone jarring hit on him to pop the ball out, he swiped at it and got lucky. It was a lucky play brought on by a breakdown in fundamentals. To claim it was some great defensive play is a stretch. Heads up play, sure it was.
As far as Anderson, he crashed so far inside that there was no way he could have outside contain Which is His Responsibility because he is the last player to that side on the LOS. It’s plays like that that get your defense gashed for 8 YPC and its not going to matter if Chung or Spikes is back there. I hope your DEs play that aggressively every play this week (minus Tebow missing the read) because we won’t have to pass. Your offense will be lucky to get on the field because will be able to run the option at will. We both know that won’t happen, but hey!
"You’re only great if you win something. I mean, Alexander wasn’t Alexander the Mediocre or Alexander the Average. He was Alexander the Great, and there’s a reason for it."-Shannon Sharpe
It’s not like he put a bone jarring hit on him to pop the ball out, he swiped at it and got lucky. It was a lucky play brought on by a breakdown in fundamentals. To claim it was some great defensive play is a stretch. Heads up play, sure it was.
So your saying it was luck, or that it was all Ball’s fault? I admit it was his fault for not taking care of the ball better, but Brace took advantaged of that like any good defensive play would. Like when a QB makes a badly thrown ball, and there is an INT. The defensive player took advantage of it.
As far as Anderson, he crashed so far inside that there was no way he could have outside contain Which is His Responsibility because he is the last player to that side on the LOS. It’s plays like that that get your defense gashed for 8 YPC and its not going to matter if Chung or Spikes is back there. I hope your DEs play that aggressively every play this week (minus Tebow missing the read) because we won’t have to pass. Your offense will be lucky to get on the field because will be able to run the option at will. We both know that won’t happen, but hey!
No. Anderson’s responsibility was to get after the QB. And he did that very well while reading the option play. If that play makes it 9 times out of 10 when a player gets after Tebow, doesn’t that make it more of a defensive play that he was able to read it THAT quickly and react to it THAt quickly and force a fumble? Yes. It was a very good defensive play.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
If it was a pass play, yes
This wasn’t a pass play, Anderson was playing run all the way. Anderson’s first priority as a defensive end against the run has to be contain because there is no one outside of him. You seem to having trouble with that concept, but it’s the truth. He read run all the way and went stat hunting and he got lucky. If Tebow makes the pitch (he had ample time to do so, Royal was waiting on it) Anderson is getting laughed at because he blew contain and Royal is one on one with only a corner to beat on the outside. Tebow was slow on the pitch plain and simple. Anderson cashed in by being in the right place at the right time, which happened to be out of position.
"You’re only great if you win something. I mean, Alexander wasn’t Alexander the Mediocre or Alexander the Average. He was Alexander the Great, and there’s a reason for it."-Shannon Sharpe
Doesn't matter. His job was to get to Tebow.
And if it was a run, adjust accordingly, and he did.
And he had no time, the play was over in about 3 seconds. Maybe 4.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
We use Anderson for pass rush.
If its a run, he should adjust accordingly. He is not a starter more than a pass rushing option to have on the field. He would start if he can set the edge a lot better, and if he was a better run stuffer (he is good but not great imo).
So when you see him on the field, its to get to tebow. At least thats mostly the case. If its a run, he is supposed to adjust accordingly, and he did.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
That play illustrates why he is deficient at setting the edge
There was a reason for averaging 8 YPC last time, and undisciplined play in the front seven likely was a big part of it. Von Miller has the same problem on occasion and it makes me want to pull my hair out!
We notice that play because of the turnover, but you won’t notice it otherwise unless it’s a big gain the other way. It’s funny you mention setting the edge. He did exactly the opposite there. If it’s a big play going the other way and you know anything about stopping the run, you’d curse the guy. You can’t set the edge when you crash down inside like that. You’ve probably seen the replay as many times as I have now, envision this, Tebow rides Johnson who is the dive back into the LOS and immediately pitches to Royal after he pulls the ball back. Look at where Anderson is? Does he have a chance in hell at keeping Royal inside? No way. And when you say the play happend too fast, I say BS. Tebow had taken a good three steps before Anderson hit him. If he pulls the ball out of Johnson’s gut and imediately flips it, Royal is gone for a nice gain. That was the play he needed to make based on the read of Anderson crashing inside. You can tell from the replay that Royal was expecting the pitch long before Anderson Hits Tebow. It was goof man!
"You’re only great if you win something. I mean, Alexander wasn’t Alexander the Mediocre or Alexander the Average. He was Alexander the Great, and there’s a reason for it."-Shannon Sharpe
There was a reason for averaging 8 YPC last time, and undisciplined play in the front seven likely was a big part of it. Von Miller has the same problem on occasion and it makes me want to pull my hair out!
Skewed by the first quarter. But anyways he adjusted very well .
We notice that play because of the turnover, but you won’t notice it otherwise unless it’s a big gain the other way. It’s funny you mention setting the edge. He did exactly the opposite there. If it’s a big play going the other way and you know anything about stopping the run, you’d curse the guy. You can’t set the edge when you crash down inside like that. You’ve probably seen the replay as many times as I have now, envision this, Tebow rides Johnson who is the dive back into the LOS and immediately pitches to Royal after he pulls the ball back. Look at where Anderson is? Does he have a chance in hell at keeping Royal inside? No way. And when you say the play happend too fast, I say BS. Tebow had taken a good three steps before Anderson hit him. If he pulls the ball out of Johnson’s gut and imediately flips it, Royal is gone for a nice gain. That was the play he needed to make based on the read of Anderson crashing inside. You can tell from the replay that Royal was expecting the pitch long before Anderson Hits Tebow. It was goof man!
Okay yes he made a couple steps, but it still was about 3-4 seconds, and with Anderson coming at ya. Let me put it this way: Anderson’s job was to get to tebow. When Anderson came out, he adjusted (quickly) and went after tebow and the ball to force the fumble. no matter HOW you look at it, it was a very good defensive play because he ADJUSTED and went after the option play.
Now… if it was completed? Sure yes we would get mad at him, but he adjusted anyways. Tebow probably would have gotte the ball out sooner but not A LOT sooner. Anders came FLYING after him so I doubt he had all the time in the world, or even enough time to know when to ditch the ball before it was too late.
Anderson adjusted, went after the ball, created a fumble, and recovered it. I think he deserves more than “he was lucky” from you.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
Anderson's Job was to contain
And he’s not getting more than he was lucky from me because a) He was out of the postion b) The timing of the play was a little off before Anderson even rushed up field c)He wasn’t actually going after the fumble, it happened because Tebow had a screwy handle on the ball. Anderson didn’t even realize the ball was out at first. Tebow makes that pitch and Anderson has a snow ball’s chance in hell of catching Royal. And the funny thing about it, in that run play, Royal is actually Anderson’s responsibility!
"You’re only great if you win something. I mean, Alexander wasn’t Alexander the Mediocre or Alexander the Average. He was Alexander the Great, and there’s a reason for it."-Shannon Sharpe
His job wasn't to contain.
Because we don’t bring him in to contain.
A) Not really. A slight thing, but he quickly read, and reacted.
B) Your team’s fault not his. He took advantaged like any other defender would.
C) He didn’t. When you watch the video you can see the ball did not move at all until Anderson hit it. And then Anderson quickly dove for the fumble.
Royal was DEFINITELY not Anderson’s responsibility. lol Bill would be an idiot to do that. When we have Anderson in the game, 95% of the time its to get after the QB. Not to help set the edge or anything of that sort.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
Good, keep him in there on run plays
My bet is we win more than we lose with his inability to stay home and keep contain. And you wonder why you got gashed? Ding Ding Ding, theres your answer! You lose discipline like that against this running game, it costs you big more times than not.
It’s obvious you know two things about run defense Jack & I can’t say the second but it rhymes with it.
"You’re only great if you win something. I mean, Alexander wasn’t Alexander the Mediocre or Alexander the Average. He was Alexander the Great, and there’s a reason for it."-Shannon Sharpe
He wasn't that out of positin to tell the truth.
And Don’t count on such things again. Anderson will be there to rush the passer more often than not, but he does have good vision. :)
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
And no tebow didnt have any time.
He had enough time to do the play action but after that he was dead. lol
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
I am done
Your rudimentary knowledge makes it impossible to talk about this any further with you. Ask someone from Pats Pulpit that knows something about defense to explain the concept of outside contain to you. I am sure if they do a good enough job, a lightbulb will go off in your head, then we can continue this discussion.
"You’re only great if you win something. I mean, Alexander wasn’t Alexander the Mediocre or Alexander the Average. He was Alexander the Great, and there’s a reason for it."-Shannon Sharpe
lol I expected you to say that,
and I can say the same to you.
i watched the replay several times, and to say that Anderson did not make a great play speaks volumes about how it should be a broncos mistake more than a patriot defender play. Here is what happened:
1) Ball is snapped, tebow goes to play action
2) Anderson bit but since he was right there when he did the play action he
3) Adjusted and ran into tebow forcing the fumble.
Tebow, after he made the play action had one second before he got hit by Anderson. Anderson, while he bit on the play, wasn’t out of position, and quickly adjusted and went strait after tebow and the ball.
If you can’t see that I’m afraid this argument is quite moot.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
If he's is anywhere near the fake to Johnson
He is out of positon. As a Defensive End having no one outside of him on the defensive right on the LOS, Anderson has to have outside contain on the right side of the defense, he does not. You cannot have outside contain if you pursue a back to the opposite side of the defense from where you started. If Denver runs that play as an end around instead of an option, Royal is still running. If I can see that, so can Mike McCoy. Yes, Anderson made a decent play, he made the most out of a mistake and thats what it was. But the truth of the matter is he over pursued on the play, and piss poor execution on Denver’s part prevented them from taking advantage of it. Thats how I see it and thats how most people who have played or coached would see that play. There are a number of ways to exploit that tendency, if Denver executes, they didn’t on that particular play and it cost them.
"You’re only great if you win something. I mean, Alexander wasn’t Alexander the Mediocre or Alexander the Average. He was Alexander the Great, and there’s a reason for it."-Shannon Sharpe
First of all
saying: “Thats how I see it and thats how most people who have played or coached would see that play.”
Is not a true statement.
Second of all, he hardly over-pursued. I watched the replay over and over and over again. This is what I see.
Tebow makes the play action, and right as he did that Anderson DID move to the RB AT FIRST, but he QUICKLY went back toward Tebow. He didn’t over pursue to the point where he got himself out of the play. He faked him only slightly, but that’s all because he quickly adjusted. If tebow actually faked Anderson to the point of over-pursuing out of the play, then that is a completion to Royal.
Another thing. Tebow had 1 second after the play action the ball to royal at the most. The first 2 seconds were from the play action. The last second came when Anderson was charging right at tebow, and tebow trued to get away to get the pitch off, only Anderson put his hand to where the ball was and prevented it.
What you say is not there, and I’m considered the unbiased one on both the Raider’s and Patriots blogs. I’m not saying this out of defending my patriot player moreso than relaying what I am seeing on the replay. And that is what I am seeing. You are wrong. That’s as plainly as I can give it. Since you most likely would disagree…. again, I say we end this argument for the sake of our awesome playoff game beginning in about one day, and lets all mentally prepare for it (I need to at least. lol).
Agree to disagree if it does come to that I suppose.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
First of all, this is not a play action pass,
It is a read option play, a designed run! If Anderson is anywhere but providing outside contain, he is out of position. If it were a pass play, Anderson would have been credited for a sack, which he was not. What you are seeing is not there, the boat left and you weren’t on the boat. This was a designed run play NOT A PLAY-ACTION PASS! So no, I am not wrong. You didn’t even diagnose the right play and you want to call me wrong? It is obvious you’ve never played a down, never coached, and can’t even decide on one team to follow. If you want to logically talk about football, learn a little more about the game before you go off like you know something, because it is painfully clear that you don’t know anything.
"You’re only great if you win something. I mean, Alexander wasn’t Alexander the Mediocre or Alexander the Average. He was Alexander the Great, and there’s a reason for it."-Shannon Sharpe
Listen I have seen option run plays (Similar to play action run I suppose. Different way of calling it but option run is a better way of saying it).
from miami. So I DO know what they are. Okay, option run play instead of play action run.
And that’s your agument? “You don’t know anything.” That’s really pathetic.
You are not listening to me. I said that he wasn’t really out of position. He was for what? Half a second, and then he went right toward Tebow. You are really over stating the whole “out of position” thing. You have to take into context of how the play is a damn OPTION play. If Anderson instead went right toward Tebow, all Tebow has to do is actually hand it off to the RB, and Anderson will have no chance to get to him. Your failure in thinking outside the box and diagnosing the play is very disappointing. It’s all black and white to you. sigh
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
For what Anderson did, it was a very good defensive play.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
I am listening to you
But I don’t know why. He was out of position for the entire play because he is suppose to be the contain on the right side of the defense, thats his job. He is lucky that he doesn’t get exploited on this particular play. Not that I expect you to understand that, but it is the truth. You recall, I gave him props for the recovery. If he continues to pursue that agressively against our offense this week, the dude is a liability.
"You’re only great if you win something. I mean, Alexander wasn’t Alexander the Mediocre or Alexander the Average. He was Alexander the Great, and there’s a reason for it."-Shannon Sharpe
If he went right toward tebow in the first place
tebow would have handed it off to the RB, and Anderson would be out of position, and the RB would most likely get yards.
If he was pursuing aggressively, then he would not have recovered so quickly.
How you can’t understand that is beyond me. Well… today is the game, and I figured I will fill in the blank for your next response: “He was out of position. How can you not see that! You imbecile… if he does that again you guys are screwed.”
I’m at least guessing that’s about right. In any case, I don’t want to spend the whole day still debating this, so let’s just call it a day, and watch some wildcard football. I want to wish you guys the best of luck when we face each other. I never like to be a bad sport. Win or lose, I wish a good from my pats, and your broncos.
Nice talking to ya CH74. Whatever your response is I won’t respond in return, so you’ll have the last laugh so to speak. :P
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
He had it in one hand though, as if he is ready to pitch the ball, but Anderson came in there too quick, and went after the ball.
He made a great read, and knocked the ball out of Tebows hand and it was a fumble. A good defensive decision, and play.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
I've even seen BJGE, the guy who has never fumbled in his acreer, hold the ball in one arm in traffic.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
He won't end his career without a fumble if he continues to do so.
Forwards to Dennis Allen
"You’re only great if you win something. I mean, Alexander wasn’t Alexander the Mediocre or Alexander the Average. He was Alexander the Great, and there’s a reason for it."-Shannon Sharpe
I dont think any RB will end their career with no fumbles.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
It's a tough league
That he hasn’t fumbled the rock yet is impressive though. Maybe we need a new running backs coach!
I wouldn’t use AP as a model for ball security, he has some fumble issues. I don’t know about the Raiders backs because they are the Raiders. I know they don’t seem to fumble when we play them though.
"You’re only great if you win something. I mean, Alexander wasn’t Alexander the Mediocre or Alexander the Average. He was Alexander the Great, and there’s a reason for it."-Shannon Sharpe
McFadden used to fumble wuite a bit, and your right
AP is not a good example. lol
Bush typically uses both arms, but when he makes a cut he put the ball toward the outside arm. Ball had it on the inside, which I know it was a mistake (see I’m unbiased. lol).
And yeah…. when BJGE fumbles pats nation will shed a small tear…. but he has a good run going. lol
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
I wonder how many Raiders will still be Raiders
After the house cleaning thats coming? It kinda sux for McFadden, he finally gets his game together and misses half of the season with an injured foot. Bush hits free agency. That team could look really different come August.
"You’re only great if you win something. I mean, Alexander wasn’t Alexander the Mediocre or Alexander the Average. He was Alexander the Great, and there’s a reason for it."-Shannon Sharpe
Offensively we have a lot to look forward too.
We like what we see in taiwan Jones, and we are confident that either bush, mcfadden, or both will be on this team. Ford, Moore, and DHB look to all be threats. Boss should get more targets.
Defensively though… it really depends on if we’ll switch to 3-4 or not and what DC will we have next season. lol
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
Rebuilding yet again, can't be fun if you are a fan.
Unlse you rebuld the way the Broncos did!
"You’re only great if you win something. I mean, Alexander wasn’t Alexander the Mediocre or Alexander the Average. He was Alexander the Great, and there’s a reason for it."-Shannon Sharpe
Hey we still have pryor. XD
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
Whoo Hooo
Was he active at all during the season?
"You’re only great if you win something. I mean, Alexander wasn’t Alexander the Mediocre or Alexander the Average. He was Alexander the Great, and there’s a reason for it."-Shannon Sharpe
Yeah but we didnt give him a chance to play yet.
STill developing. XD
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
He as a bright future
Playing Tebow on the meat squad. I’m suprised they didn’t throw him out there as a receiver at some point. The Raiders might have no choice to play him next season, if he’s still around.
"You’re only great if you win something. I mean, Alexander wasn’t Alexander the Mediocre or Alexander the Average. He was Alexander the Great, and there’s a reason for it."-Shannon Sharpe
Nah. Palmer or Campbell (if signed) will start.
Pryor would get sit another year or two to develop his accuracy unless he does something in the preseason. lol
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
I wouldn't count on many mistakes this time around
This game will not be the 70/30 gimme you are planning on. It’s going to be a tough game, your Patriots are in for a dog-fight. I hope and pray Belicheck is making plans for the AFC Championship already like you are. The Steelers made the mistake of looking past this team, it would be almost a shame if the Patriots did too. This team has nothing to lose, they’ve been put down by nearly everyone. They are far more dangerous than you realize.
"You’re only great if you win something. I mean, Alexander wasn’t Alexander the Mediocre or Alexander the Average. He was Alexander the Great, and there’s a reason for it."-Shannon Sharpe
Yep.
We know this. XD The Broncos are a very good team. We all know this. ESPN guys can be very stupid. lol
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
Key to winning this game?
Playing like we did against pittsburgh. Hopefully just for 60 minutes and 11 seconds…lol
Tim Tebow is Denver's 2012 starting QB. I'm not even a little sorry that offends some of you.
"No trees were harmed in the creation of this message, but a few electrons
were mildly inconvenienced."
New England's TEs
That’s the killer. Champ’s gonna be in Welkers pocket all day and Chad Ocho is washed up. I don’t even think I’d put Goody on him. Chris Harris could probably handle Chad on his own. Put Goody on a TE with safety help.
no no no no no no
Goody is the worst tackler on the team… putting him on a TE is recipe for DISASTER.
Harris, like the first game will probably be in the slot on Welker. Its scary, but he did well in the first game. Champ probably is on Gronk, where you want a bigger DB who can tackle (Champ is our biggest and best tackling CB)…. realistically they will probably switch off with champ staying outside, while the LBs help whoever is inside.
Mays should rarely, if ever see the field in favor WW, DJ, and extra DBs. Let them try to run on us… long drives of 7 yards runs at least chews clock and keeps it close.
That leaves the young safeties, LBs and Goody to cover the #2/3 WRs, RBs, and Hernandez…. we know how well that worked last time, but hopefully they’ve matured a bit….
Basically, we’re a bit hosed (like every team that tries to match up NE), but it really gets down to whether the young safeties can squeeze down the zones long enough for the pass-rush to get home. NE doesn’t have any great “pop-the-top” deep threats (unlike Pitt that has seemingly a half-dozen), so that gives a little flexibility to cheat the safeties up into shorter zones… but TB also hits the smallest windows of any QB in the league on those short passes. if the safeties make one misstep the wrong direction, or one missed tackle, TB and the NE receiving corp will adjust the route and spin’em like a top.
Best DEF… keep ‘em off the field with long, sustained drives and don’t give ’em anything cheap with turnovers or penalties… which is doable against this mediocre NE DEF…. then hope you catch a lucky bounce or 2 to hold on for the win.
Gronk and Hernandez will not catch a single pass - even if we don't cover them
as long they are on the sidelines. The key for us is to control the clock and keep them and Brady sitting on the sidelines
How to not lose to the Patriots
1) The Broncos must not turn the ball over, obviously easier said than done with game-time temps in the teens with some wind. No pics – no fumbles
2) On offense, Tebow wil have to show that he can make repeated, accurate, short to medium throws in order to get down the field as the Patriots will not do what the Steelers did with their safeties – New England will make it a priority to take away the deep pass. TT will not win if he continues to miss on over half his throws. In addition, Denver must be able to run the ball much they did in week 16 – this will be a noticeably tougher task as two of N.E.’s best run-stoppers will be back in lineup for this game – Chung & Spikes.
3) On defense, the Broncos will have to pick their poison – do they want to let Gronkowski try to kill them… or Hernandez…. or Welker ?? The unnerving thing is, Brady could give a shit about which guy he throws to – he has no real favorites – he merely hits the guy that’s open. As much as the Patriots are to be feared for the way they throw the football, Denver will not be able to lean on its nickle & dime packages because N.E. will elect to run the ball and run it well, should the Bronco defense not pay attention. In addition, we all know the Patriots will roll out their hurry-up offense and Denver will be scored on – they just have to hold on and hope that the carnage is not fatal. Lastly, O-line starters Sebastion Vollmer & Logan Mankins will be back for this game – both were missing in week 16.
3) On special teams – I’m pretty sure that special teams are not going to decide this football game.
This no doubt that Denver can win this game – the odds are long and every bounce will have to go the Broncos way but, hasn’t Denver thrived on this kind of challange since Tebow appeared on the scene ?
You are absolutely right about the your passing threat.
I dont think we will, or even can, shut down your receivers. Its just not gonna happen. We just have to try to limit the damage, and hold you to field goals. Our best chance at keeping you from scoring is keeping you off the field. We need long, sustained drives running the ball to limit your possessions. Even if we dont score, or only get FGs, as long as we have kept it relatively close in the end, we have a legitimate shot.
"..who knows what can happen… the ball is oblong and bounces wierd."
They say the cool is all over me..
Mankins played week 16
But besides that your spot on. Loading up heavy on DBs to take away the pass will be dangerous for Denver. New England ran it 36 times the last meeting and they will do it again it they like the match ups.
The only reason you ran so much last game was to run out the clock at the end of the game.
In the first half, you only ran the ball 14 times. 2 were Brady runs.. and 5 were for no gain. Thats not ‘liking the matchups’ thats trying to maintain some semblance of offensive balance to use play-action. I am in no way scared of your run game. But Brady is pretty much unstoppable, even under pressure, since he makes such quick decisions.
"..who knows what can happen… the ball is oblong and bounces wierd."
They say the cool is all over me..
Tebone
No need to be afraid of the Pats running game but, its become a good weapon for N.E. When a team can throw it the way the Patriots throw it and that same team can wait for the opposing defense to strickly play the pass (nickle & dime) New England/Brady will check-out of the pass and run the football. Its a real bitch for the defense that must allow for this sudden change in the offense. And, New England now hands the ball off to guys who are tough, guys who can actually run the ball – BenJarvus Green-Ellis and Steven Ridley and at times to Aaron Hernandez doing a (tight) end-around. The Pats running game doesn’t get any press or praise because Brady is so f’ing good at throwing the ball.
Igore the New England running game at your own peril.
by profootballfan on Jan 10, 2012 4:04 PM MST up reply actions
Exactly, your running game is bi-product of your passing game.
It comes on later in games (although I do recall you guys ran early and a lot against one team this year. I cant really remember. BJGE had a big game though) But in of itself, it isnt extremely effective. Where-as we are the opposite. Our passing game isnt really that effective. It is only as effective as our run game.
Looking forward to us actually getting to consistently run the ball the whole game this time around. If dont turn the ball over, I think we have a 50/50 shot of winning this game. But if we are negative in the turnover margin at all, we lose.
"..who knows what can happen… the ball is oblong and bounces wierd."
They say the cool is all over me..
Tman - I got it at 70/30 Pats
I’m counting on:
Brady being Brady
Coach Belichick’s game plan (make Tebow throw it short & often)
The rearrangement of the defensive backfield (Chung’s return to strong safety, McCourty moved to free safety – Arrington & Molden at the corners – the return of Spikes in the middle)
The shored-up offensive line (Light, Mankins,Waters,Vollmer,Solder – all healthy, together very capable of keeping Brady safe & upright)
Gronk, Hernandez, Welker, Branch, Ochocinco… ahhh lets skip Ochocinco
The emergence of Steven Ridley as a quality running back
Home field advantage
Valuable Bronco intel provided by Josh McDaniels (kidding here)
New England should win by 18 points… maybe more. As you all know from week 15, this Patriot offense IS NOTHING LIKE… NOTHING LIKE the less-than-dynamic Pittsburgh offense on display last week in Denver.
by profootballfan on Jan 11, 2012 10:09 AM MST up reply actions
you miss the biggest issue NE will have
stopping the DEN running game without collpsing the box (which opens up the big play). That is the single biggest challenge in stopping DEN.
Its fine and dandy to say NE will make TT go to short throws… but easier said than done if that means having to keep 2 safeties deep (to limit deep passes).
The advantage DEN has with TT is we effectively have an extra player on any running play, because the DEF has to spy him on the backside. With a FB, TE and 5 offensive lineman we can put a hat on every defender in 7 man box… and if the DEF is spying, we can further double team at the point (again, without leaving anyone unblocked).
Its a simple numbers game, which pretty much guaruntees at least 1 safety will be brought down… that potentially opens up the vertical passing game if TT can read it right and hit his man (hit or miss like many young QBs… but definitely a hit vs. Pitt).
By scheme you can stop one or the other… but doing both is almost impossible because the numbers on the the offense’s side. The teams that have succeeded most against us were either able to get ahead early forcing us to pass (GB, DET, NE) or were able to beat the oline one-on-one (DET dline & Jets as best examples), and/or good CBs that could cover the receivers without the 2-man safety help (KC).
Bringing the safeties down also is no guaruntee either… in the first KC game, they have a good front 7 and were running 9-10 man boxes like Pitt was, and we were still running all over them. We passed only 8 times that game, because if you’re avging 7ypc, why bother throwing?
No playoff game is 70-30… just way too much parity and “luck of the bounce” goes into who wins or loses NFL games. NE vs. StL maybe 70-30… but even a bad 8-8 team that sneaks into the playoffs is far from the dregs of the league, so any playoff team has more than a 30% chance to win an NFL game.
cj
I beleive that Belichick will do everything possible to thwart the long pass completion – which means (depending on the offensive set) the safeties will be warned to keep the play in front of them. No doubt, the linebackers (nice to have Spikes back) will have to do their share of the tackling or the Broncos will be able to run the ball. Again, the goal is to entice Tebow to attempt to make many short, accurate throws to advance the ball – we all know he misses on fully half his throws (in his best outings!) and this is how New England should be able to take advantage of the Denver offense.
The Broncos will use their running game (yes I know, including Tebow as a runner) but, they better score every time (TD’s perferably) they have the ball or, the run game will become much tougher to stay with.
You forgot that the Patriots didn’t get ahead early in their week 15 win – in fact, they were down 17 – 7 in the 2nd Q. In that game, New England made the adjustments required and buried Denver the rest of the way – its how this Patriot team operates (even though it drives me crazy).
I say its a 70/30 game because of three simple truths: 1) the Patriots will field a better squad this Saturday night than they did three weeks ago 2) the game is at Gillette 3) less than a month ago, New England hung 41 on this very same Denver team… at Mile High.
Kooky, crazy, unpredictable things can happen in any football game but, outside of devine intervention, this game will result in victory for the Patriots.
by profootballfan on Jan 11, 2012 12:38 PM MST up reply actions
no, they didn't "adjust" until the fumbles put us behind
You NEVER stopped us, until we gave up 3 straight drives with fumbles, and then gave you a second chance on your first 3rdQ drive with a bad penalty on 3rd-and-long. At that point we were behind, and defending our run game became a whole lot easier.
DEN doesn’t play well from behind. We know all know that. But a big reason you were up big was because of fumbles. If we limit those, the game looks a lot closer.
No team, including you all in wk15, has been able to stop DEN’s running game with TT without using an 8-man box. That means at minimum 1 safety playing the box, and that by definition opens up opportunities for vertical passing. If you all can stop the running game and force us into 3rd-and-longs, or get a big lead, where we have to pass and you can drop the safeties… DEN has issues.
But teams, in general, have to use 8 man boxes to do that…. and that means as long as we keep it close with our DEF, TT will have 3-5 play action opportunities to test that deep safety with multiple-vertical route concepts. TT has been inconsistent hitting those plays…. we win when he does, lose when he doesn’t… but you’re idiotic if you scheme to stop those5 plays vs. to stop the run game. BB isn’t so dumb.
No way does anything from wk15 make me think NE more than 2X as likely to win as DEN… you are/were the better team, but the big score difference was hugely contributed to by bad fumble luck. Recoveries are randomn (roughly 50-50), and punt muffs get recovered by the receiving team >80% of the time… you got all 3, wiuthout which the score is much closer and we don’t have to move away from our run game as much.
70-30 is just INSANE odds for a NFL playoff game… you basically are saying this game is the equivelent probabilities of the best team in the NFL playing the worst… and I don’t think that is true for either NE or DEN.
cj
Blaming Denver’s offensive troubles vs the Patriots on “lucky” fumbles is disingenuous – N.E. forced the turnovers in two of the cases and had the skill in all three to recover the football. A fumble is a fumble, luck is ending up at the same bar that the Bronco cheerleaders hang out at.
O.K. 70/30 odds are too high for this game – make it 60/40… feel better now ??
by profootballfan on Jan 11, 2012 2:27 PM MST up reply actions
yes.
60-40 is probably about right… I highly doubt we can score enough to hang with brady and your deep receiving corp, given our youth and lack of depth at DB.
But you’re insane if you don’t think luck has a huge impact on the game, or that bad fumble recovery luck made the DEN-NE game look way worse than it actually was. DEN dominated that game until you got 3 extra possessions, turned them into 17 points, and forced us to do things we don’t do well (pass).
Thinking such a 3 TO shift when DEN was dominating up to that point is predictive of the future is just plain false, just like me predicting Brady throws 3 ints in this game would be…
Luck has an impact
but I don’t know if it’s a “huge” impact. YOu guys had drives to score as well, but the pats defense was able to stop you. 2/3 fumbles turned into 14 points out of…. 45 I believe. You have to remember though that that was from the defense, which is what a defense is supposed to try and do. And those were only 2 offensive drives by the broncos. You guys had other chances to score after that too.
=/
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
but context after the fumbles was different than before
I’m not surprised at all we could do much offensively once we were down big. We no longer could really play to our strength, which is to grind the clock.
If those hits/fumbles happen in the 4thQ, and we recover 2 of them (as the probablities would suggest is most likely predicting the future), the whole game looks different.
What happened with fumbles in wk15 that led to a blowout was non-predictive.
What is predictive of this game was our inability to cover your deep receiving corp, and your inability to stop our run game without stacking the box. You’ve gotten healthier, and our rookie DBs have gotten more experienced… it’ll be interesting to see how that plays out (likely in your favor if all else is equal), but again, luck and situation/matchups will play a huge role in the final outcome of the game.
If DEN avoids turnovers and bad luck, it’ll be a fun game, but NE still likely wins. If we lose the TO battle by 3 again, it’ll be a massacre. If DEN wins the TO battle and/or gets a bit lucky themselves…. it may be a wicked sad day for some folks.
I agree with everything you said except
your inability to stop our run game without stacking the box.
We stopped the run after the 1st quarter, which I admit was abysmal. We also didn’t have Chung and Spikes, both of who are our top run stopping players and both will be playing today. But you guys have a great rushing attack, so I don’t know how much they will affect the game until game time. lol
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
Read the Casserly article on "Tebows best game"
the only way you stopped our run game in wk15 was to play single high, man-free coverage… until you had a big lead and we were forced to pass
You used an 8-man box, just like Pitt, KC, and every other team that has some success slowing our run game. A 7 man box just isn’t gonna happen… BB is not that stupid.
The pats never play single high man coverage though.
That’s not part of their scheme.
What happened was that we switched to a 3-4 and used sub packages. Thats what happened. This allowed us to have Spikes in the game more, Ninko in his natural OLB position, And Anderson to be pass rushing with big 3-4 DL.
Thats the only big change I saw. In the first quaryer you were running all day against our 4-3 defense. When we swicthed to 3-4, you guys didn’t really do too much damage.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
except when they did against DEN in wk15
watch the tape… or go away and leave us alone. I sick of you coming in our house and and saying you didn’t have 8 in the box, when you VERY CLEARLY DID.
In sub packages perhaps.
But when the play happened normally the safeties went to their usual positions or reacted if there is a run.
We don’t stack 8 in the box like pitt did. We normally have safeties in coverage because our defensive scheme has safeties in coverage normally. When we went to the 3-4, you guys did not run against us as well as you did in the 1st. And I don’t think we had 8 in the box all game at all. To suggest so will mean that we did not run the bend but dont break scheme, which is a very LONG stretch to even say so.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
from your own highlight video
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2011121811/2011/REG15/patriots@broncos#menu=highlights&tab=recap
at 1:34- 6 defenders on the line, 2 LBs behind them… thats 8 in the box
at 1:47 – TT in shotgun… count the defenders… 4 on the line, 3 LBs, and a safety immediately behind them… we can quibble on whether that is 7 or 8 “in the box”, but the safety is definitely not deep… his counterpart is far deeper “single high”
at 3.42 – 2min left in the game, Denver is 5 wide… how many in the box? 6!!!! even when we don’t even have a RB in, you still have an extra defender in the box to contain TT.
So if you can’t recognize that… go away.
And at
:50- 7 defenders in the box. 5 at the LOS
1:05- 7 in the box
Now at 1:35 the safety moved up because there was only 1 receiver that side of the field. If the receiver went out then the safety will follow him along with arrington, but it looked like a running play (something that you guys do quite well in terms of disguising a passing play). But yes, 8 in the box I suppose although he was close to the WR as if to cover him initially.
1:47 yeah there is 3 down lineman there. Im looking at the hands. This is a sub package. 3 DL, 3 LB, 3 CBs, and 2 Safeties. One CB is blocked by the oakland final score box, and you can clearly see the other two, and the two safeties who are at the same level. So that is a sub package, and not 8 in the box.
3:42 yep there are 6 guys there. But its a 4th and 17! One Lb dropped into coverage while the other guys went deep. and that other LB stayed underneath just in case Tebow were to run it our, or they go into zone.
So still stands, the pats did not have 8 in the box all game, and the pats will use sub packages, as I have stated.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
:50 is 1st Q and we were running all over you
and the package doesn’t matter… it could be 11 DBs… there are still 8 in the tackle box.
6 in the box against an empty set is still “stacking the box”… IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT THEY DO AFTER THE SNAP.
:50 is 1st Q and we were running all over you
You didn’t run all over us for the other 3 quarters. Im pretty sure we didnt put 8 in the box the rest of the 3 quarters.
and the package doesn’t matter… it could be 11 DBs… there are still 8 in the tackle box.
The only reason they were close in the box because their respective assignments were close to the box.
6 in the box against an empty set is still "stacking the box"… IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT THEY DO AFTER THE SNAP.
No its not. not when you have your 5 other players playing deep coverage. You forget that it was a 4th and long, they can rush 5 and have one LB play zone in the middle. And you wrong. It does matter, because it tells you who their assignment was, and what they are doing.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
every single play that was not 1Q
in your highlight video had extra men in the box… NOT A SINGLE ONE, with the exception of the quibble one where we can debate whether the safety was technically close enough, had 2 deep safeties.
YOU ARE WRONG.
lol wow.
YOU ARE WRONG.
So far you are not doing a very good job proving it. Your saying we need to have 8 in the box to stop the run, or because of tebow. I highly doubt we had 8 in the box the entire 3 quarters of defense. We switched to 3-4, which is a more friendlier sub package formation, and we played Spikes a lot more who is our best run stuffer on our LB core.
I think that was the difference. I don’t know if it will repeat, and yes, I agree that having 8 in the box will work but it doesn’t mean those safeties won’t drop back into their own assignments depending on how the play is formed (whether its a run or pass I mean).
They do need at least 6 guys I will say imo. 5 guys to rush, and the other guy to play read and react zone in the middle.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
by using your own video
that had non 1st Quarter 3 plays, all 3 of which had extra men in the box?
Go away… you’re are no longer worth talking to.
They did have extra men, but not all are 8.
If you want to be that guy, I can easily say you are completely ignorant in your thinking that the pats have had 8 in the box all game.
Past the 1st quarter, you guys didnt have that much success running the ball not because we presumably had 8 in the box all game.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
this is a read and react, bend but dont break defense.
Its foolish of you to think such a way…….
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
you know what.... I'll say the same thing.
You are not even worth arguing either….. you are taking me away from my nba 2k12 time. lol
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
I'd prefer to call fumbles mistakes... not bad luck
If Denver can eliminate the mistakes from their game – they’ll be a better football team – this I will agree to. Fumbles & interceptions are mistakes on the football field… not unlucky occurrences.
by profootballfan on Jan 11, 2012 3:53 PM MST up reply actions
sure, the fumble itself is a mistake/good DEF play... I said that too.
… but the RECOVERY is luck. Fumble recoveries generally are ~50-50 overall (WR fumbles tend to be greater for DEF, QB fumbles tend to go OFF, and punt muffs greater for the receiving team… because of the relative # of players around).
No team has been able to consistently recover a greater proportion of fumbles than other teams over multiple seasons…. recovery is luck, not skill.
You were lucky and recovered 3 of 3 against us… that is not predictive.
INTs are absolutely generally predictive and not luck (tipped balls may be the exception)… but neither team threw any in wk15, and neither QB, with the exception of a mulligan game or 2 each, is INT prone.
Just want to say
I think BB will try and defend the deep pass more. Its fine and all if you guys run the ball, but with a healthier spikes and chung, running the ball will be a lot harder on us. So in a sense, what I’m saying is is that if we start getting some 3 and outs, and the pats start scoring the ball, you guys would have to abandon the run at some point to catch up and start throwing the ball.
Not saying it will happen. Just that its a possibility.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
absolutely
if you get off fast, DEN is in big trouble.
But no team has stopped us with 7 man boxes yet… if you can, more power to you.
7 manboxes is the front 7...
so every team has 7 man boxes. lol
But in terms of playing close as if playing the run? And you pass a slant over the middle? Well if I know the pats they only send up to 5 guys against a QB, and the rest into coverage usually.. the other 2 LBs would be read and react as well.
BUt yeah, Denver has been very good at exploiting the front 7 playing very very very close.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
not on passing plays dude... running plays, and where the DEF players line up
You can drop 9 into coverage, even with a 9 man box…
If you only have 1 guy lined up deep (a typical 8-man box used to defend against the run, with one safety down by the LOS), there is only one defender that has the angle to give over the top help on deep passes… so by definition, it is vulnerable to multiple-vertical passing concepts.
You can give the single deep safety help by pulling the CBs back off the LOS (e.g. a soft zone cover-3 look), but that makes smoke routes, quick comebacks, etc. very easy… TT has proven he can hit those big windows (see Minn, Oak, etc. games… as well as you all in the 1stQ), and it also gives the WRs the ability to help with crack blocks in the run game, further aggrevating the DEN numbers game when we run.
Or you can back the 2nd safety off giving over top help for the full field… but now there is only 7 in the box and we run all over you.
So how have teams given Denver’s offense fits? Press the corners, play man, and make TT throw into tight windows. If your CBs can stay with the WRs deep, that single high safety may be enough (see KC)… at least to limit the damage. Its risky and likely will give up some big plays, but far less risky than letting our numbers grind you down in the run game.
Oh I know much of that, and I agree.
This is what you should expect to see:
5/7 of our front 7 will be looking for the run/pass rushing. The other two will play read & react. Thats what I expect.
Now our CBs will likely play your WRs obviously. I expect the two safeties to protect the deep pass, and normally our CBs don’t go in tight unless its a shorter yardage situation. Its just the bend but dont break scheme really. It works for the most part so I don’t complain.
SO I expect a lot of passing yardage in the first half from tebow. In fact, I sort of expect some form of offensive dominance from you guys mostly with the pass, but not as much with the run. We also play a lot of sub packages, so you’ll see our awesome rookie sterling moore at CB/Safety (tough cover guy rather than read and finesse like). The 2nd half is where I think will be key for both teams.
So all in all.. I expect loose coverage because our scheme is like that, but stiff run defense. Our defensive scheme is built for you to EARN yardage on the run and protect the deep pass. That’s all I can really say. Sometimes its effective, sometimes its not. 2nd half adjustments will be important for both teams.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
and you will get totally gashed by our run game if you do that
because with only 7 in the box, we can double team guys at the point… while TT reads the free man and if he goes towards the RB, Tebow goes the otherway.
As I said, no team in the NFL has been able to stop our run game with the scheme you propose… the numbers just don’t add up. Too many double teams or opportuinities for TT to misdirect. Your safeties will eventually clean it up, but if they are playing deep, it won’t be until after a significant gain. Eventually you’ll have to bring one of the safeties down to spy the backside, at which point you’re in the single high safety that EVERY SINGLE TEAM, INCLUDING the Patriots, has used against us.
There will be almsot zero passing yards from TT if you play 2 deep safeties, because we will never throw the ball… we’ll be too busy picking up 7ypc on the ground.
cj - tell me this...
In the Mile High game vs. N.E., Denver ran like hell in the 1st Q and built a 17-7 lead. Real good right ? Then the Denver offense starts to make mistakes – the Patriots force two takeaways and the Bronco coaches f-up by having the return man try to field a punt that he should have run away from (certainly at that point in the half). So, N.E. turns these errors into 13 points and they’re back in the football game. Everybody in agreement… yes ?
My question is: why in hell didn’t the Denver Broncos continue to run the football – if NO TEAM IN THE NFL HAS BEEN ABLE TO STOP THE DENVER RUN GAME – why on earth didn’t they continue to run the ball ?? Why ?
by profootballfan on Jan 12, 2012 10:16 AM MST up reply actions
because you all shifted to single high, man free coverage
Just like I’ve been saying.
You stopped the run game with 8 in the box, man high coverage and dared us to throw. TT couldn’t convert, but we passed because that is what your DEF was giving us… the difference in the Pitt game is TT was hitting those passes.
What I’ve been saying repeatedly is that no team has been abe to stop us with 7 man box, 2 deep safeties… it just hasn’t happened. you will have to bring down a safety.
But many teams have stifled our offense by stacking the box and forcing TT to throw. He’s been inconsistent there, and that is why our results were inconsistent.
What is inane is you and jack claiming all of a sudden that your mediocre DEF will be able to something no other team in the NFL has been able to do, which is stop the Denver run game without bringing in extra safety help.
I'll let NE drag long, 10+ play drives down the field with their running game
That will chew clock, leave opportunties for forcing fumbles, and keep everything low scoring (even if NE is effective). NE won’t put up a forty-berger with just their run game.
Giving up big pass plays/scores on the other hand, where DEN gets down a lot early…. surefire way for the game to get out of hand. DEN isn’t built to play from behind with a young QB and receiving corp.
Obviously its a bit of pick your poison, but I certainly like our chances of stopping the NE run game with our nickel/dime package more than I like our chances of stopping the passing game with a standard package.
Did he really ?
You’re right… sorry, my bad. He went out in the Dolphin’s game which was week 16 – I forgot that the Pats visited Mile High in week 15.
The thing about this game is – the Broncos were so God damned impressive (to me) in that Pittsburgh victory that I’ve become a little more leery of this squad. I want to believe that New England will roll at home but, there remains that nagging fear that Tebow might be for real.
by profootballfan on Jan 10, 2012 3:45 PM MST up reply actions
the 1st Q of the NE-DEN game didn't convince you about us?
DEN has shown we can dominate NE already this year… we also showed that things can get totally out of hand if we have TOs and get behind (where we can’t play to our strength of milking the clock and running the ball).
TT is what he is… good enough that the DEF can’t sell out to the stop the run, and someone who thrives under pressure if the team can keep it close late… otherwise its all on the DEF and running game, both of which have been at times dominant this year.
Frankly NE is a touch matchup for us with their excellent short passing game and deep stable of pass catchers. Pitt thrives on the deep ball which we could limit somewhat with our passrush, but NE will challenge our DB depth, which is questionable. Best bet is to keep it close by limiting turnovers and big pass plays, use our run game which we’ve shown can be dominant, and hope for some lucky bounces. NE wins a best of 7 series every time… but DEN can certainly take any given game.
cj
The week 15 game against the Broncos went much like the other games the Patriots have won this season – N.E. falls behind, makes adjustments (mostly to their defense) as the game unfolds and goes on to victory. I was pretty certain the Pats would handle the Broncos but, I was interested to see just what Tebow could do. I came away from that game knowing that Tim Tebow has a lot of work to do before he’ll be a quality, pro-level quarterback. An NFL QB must… must… be able to complete more than 50% of his passes to stay in the league – I don’t gave a shit how good a runner he is. Running QB’s inevitably get hurt and so goes their career as a pro quarterback.
This said – I was very impressed with the way Tebow lead his team to victory over Pittsburgh (albeit a very beat up Steeler team). The Patriots aren’t beat up, the game’s at Gillette, Belichick is sick of losing playoff games and, Brady will play like a man possessed – no surprises this Saturday night.
by profootballfan on Jan 11, 2012 1:11 PM MST up reply actions
sure TT could get hurt
if that happens before he develops as a passer, indeed, he’s done. He’s started 15 games total, with no offseason or 1st team reps outside of those 15 games, and looks much improved as a passer now than he did when drafted. He’ll need to continue to develop his footwork and consistency to be viable long-term. But until he does get hurt, he provides a running threat that must be accounted for, and its been a huge contributer to DEN’s running success this year because it shifts the numbers game up front.
As a Denver fan, I’d love for TT to hit 60% of his passes… at this stage of his and his receivers development, it ain’t happening… so we make up for it by running the ball better than anyone in the NFL (in large part because of TT’s running threat), forcing the DEF to bring 8 into the box, and opening up deep, low-probability shots. When we hit those deep passes… we win. When we don’t… we lose.
TT can certainly hit short passes if you play the DBs soft… he struggles when forced to throw into tight windows with man coverage. I’d love to see you all play soft zone and 7 man boxes… that would be the ideal DEF for us to totally dominate with our running game. Isn’t going to happen because BB isn’t that stupid. You’re much better off pressing the WRs, stacking the box, and betting your high powered offense can outshoot the periodic big plays you may give up with such a DEF scheme. That will give you a greater than 50% probability of winning… not 70-30, but definitely on the plus side of 50%, maybe even 60%.
The other way we lose is to get behind big, either by bad DEF or turnovers… Gronk could abuse one of our young safeties and take one 80 yards in 11 seconds…. that takes away our run game and leads to a long day for the fans of the orange and blue…. Certainly is a possibility this week given NE’s high powered offense.
But you all just as easily could get some bad fumble luck, shifting the game the other way… or Brady could have one of his periodic 4-int mulligan games that big passrushes sometimes cause if VonDoom & friends scramble his brain early… that would shift the probabilities of winning the other way, even if your team is much more suited to playing catch up than DEN is…. wierder things have happened.
profootballfan - Aren't we all?
New England will be the most talented team on the field, but Tebow and the Broncos are tough as nails! The Broncos are a young, inexperienced playoff team, so they might suck on Saturday. But, there is a very real possibilty that you’ll have a real dog fight on your hands!
As I posted on another thread, ball control is the key
If you look at the stats from the Steelers win over NE, the Steelers just didn’t let Brady have the ball. Look at the Steeler scoring drives:
First Drive: 11 plays 5:52 of the clock—Touchdown
Second Drive: 16 plays 7:47 off the clock—Field Goal
Third Drive: 10 plays 5:39 off the clock—Touchdown
Fourth Drive: 14 plays 7:06 off the clock—Field Goal
Fifth Drive: 11 plays 5:54 off the clock—Field Goal
They punch a few more of those short field goals in and the game would have been over. They only let the Pats have the ball once in the First Quarter. It was a nice mix of short passes all over the field and running plays. They only went deep a few times (got a big PI penalty on one), but mostly it was just short passes and running plays. They ran 28 more plays than NE, holding the ball for nearly 20 minutes longer!! That’s how you beat NE.
shasta
Wait a minute – Tim Tebow is no Ben Roethlisberger ! Big Ben completed 72% of his throws that day, in Pittsburgh, and we all know Tebow misses on more than half his passes. Brady did O.K. in that game (24 of 35 with two TD’s) but, N.E. didn’t (couldn’t ?) run the ball at all that day.
If you move the game to Heinz Field, get a healthy Roethlisberger on your team and trade the Denver D for the full contingency of the Pittsburgh defense – then yeah, you’ve got a chance to beat the Patriots.
by profootballfan on Jan 11, 2012 12:54 PM MST reply actions
Until last week, everyone said Tebow couldn't do what he promptly did
By careful where you say there is and isn’t chance. There is chance in everything. If we’re on the same field as NE, then we have a chance to win. To say different only sets you up for some crying towels with the Steelers fans (their down with theirs for this year) come Saturday night.
We run the ball better than the Steelers, so the throws Tebow would need to make would be far less frequent then what Big Ben did (he threw 50 of them, with only 23 running plays). I would expect to see our distribution exactly the opposite. That breaks down one pass every 3-5 plays. I’ll take our chances with that if NE spots us the 8.1 yards/carry that they did in the first game.
shasta
O.K. I ‘m shooting my mouth off a bit but, I guaranty you, running the football – no matter how well you think Denver does it – will not beat the Patriots on Sat. night. N.E. will adjust, Denver will turn the turn the ball, Denver will be forced to settle for field-goals and the game get’s out of hand.
The only way that Denver bests New England is for Tebow to throw & connect on more-than-a-few downfield passes – much like they did against the Steelers – that’s the only way. And. since we know that the Patriots are going to defend the living shit out of these kinds of pass attempts – it will most likely be a long night for the Broncos.
so if you know your being a jerk...
why go into someone else’s house and do it?
Just as much as you guaruntee NE will scheme against 5 plays, I guaruntee you BB isn’t so stupid. He’ll scheme to stop the run… and bet that your offense will outshoot our ability to consistently hit on those big plays.
Playing soft to cover our periodic deep bombs is the best way to give DEN a good shot of staying in this game. We’d absolutely love a run heavy game where each team gets about 6 or 7 drives total…. that gives us a shot to take advantage of bad bounces and non-predictive/low probability plays for the win.
cj
Playing soft is your term – the Patriots free safety (McCourty) will be instructed to keep every pass-play in front of him – the strong safety (Chung), not so much. New England’s goal is to limit the down-field damage (longer pass completions) that was sustained by the Steelers at Mile High.
If Tebow can change his stripes and connect on 60 to 70% of the throws “given” to him – then yes, Denver has a chance for a win. The Broncos must be able to put 38 or more on the board to stand a chance – this we all know, no matter how Denver chooses to score.
by profootballfan on Jan 11, 2012 2:51 PM MST up reply actions
NE getting 35+ points is far from guarunteed
if we don’t turn over the ball and give you short fields, particularly if we can get some long drives and limit you to only 6 or 7 total drives with our run game (like we have many teams).
if we need 38 points, we’ll lose 90+% of the time. If we need 28… we have a punchers chance.
our young safeties just had their best game of the year… hopefully that is a trend due to increased experience/game slowing down… if they play like they did in wk15… yep, you’re very likely to win.
cj
True… it is not a guaranty but, if Denver really wants to win this game they must be prepared to score 35 or more.
The Steelers win was nice (for you). Pittsburgh was a gritty, rough, defensive opponent – New England isn’t. The Patriots overwhelm you with point production. New England scores and they score some more and you’ve either got to shut them down with a superior defense (not Denver’s forte) or, you must out-offense them (not Denver’s forte).
I hope the game will be close-fought – I know it will be exciting to see… can’t wait for Saturday night.
by profootballfan on Jan 11, 2012 4:10 PM MST up reply actions
as I said, if that happens, we lose
… so there is no way we prepare for that. We’re not built for winning shootouts.
Our whole gameplan will be to shorten the game and keep everyone in the 20s point wise. We’re looking to force basically a couple punts, TOs, or FGs from NE, and using our run game to limit everyone to ~6 or 7 total drives each. That is the only real probable way we win.
Denver’s DEF is far better than you give them credit for, and was the primary reason for our win streak. Our median point avg. is much lower than our mean avg because it was skewed by a few big losses vs. GB, DET (early season injuries), and NE, Buf (Turnover aided)… The big weakness is young safeties and weak CB depth, but the passrush mitigates that a lot. The young guys also have significantly improved over the year, and just had arguably their best game vs. Pitt (who’s WRs are a much bigger challenge than your guys for safety coverage because of their speed popping the top of the zone). Gronk and Hernadez are a problem for breaking tackles and YAC, but I trust the rookies more there than making the correct coverage reads.
Carter obviously struggled in week 15 tackling Hernandez, but he’s generally been a solid tackler the rest of the year… If Dawk can play, that will be a huge difference too. If I had to bet, I’d expect to lose ~30-20… but a lucky bounce or 2 could easily flip that.
Denver's D
It is what it is – a defense that is not as stingy as the New England D. I’m not calling the Broncos defense bad, just stating the obvious – Denver gets scored on more that the Patriots.
The only Denver game plan that will be effective vs. New England is this: the Broncos must score, score, score – put a lot of points on the board and hope that its enough to beat Tom Brady & Co.
Definition of “shortening the game”: a football term used by teams that are overmatched on the offensive side of the ball and can’t hope to win the game by any other means – success ratio is too low to compute
by profootballfan on Jan 12, 2012 10:01 AM MST up reply actions
I will take DEN's DEF
every day over NEs. I bet 9 out of 10 NFL coaches would too.
Denver’s DEF had to put up with the most 3-and-outs of any offense in the NFL… and still routinely gave up less than 15ppg.
NE’s DEF benefits from being able to play from ahead, and longfields because TB and friends at minimum can move the ball enough to flip field position, if they don’t score.
NE’s DEF isn’t as bad as their yards indicate, but Denver’s DEF has been extremely solid when healthy. It was banged up the first 4-5 games with its 4 best veteran players out or limping (Bunkley, Doom, Champ and DJ Williams)… Miller covered it up some, but since the vets got back it has been more often dominant than bad. Even in big point games like NE/BUF, those totals were significantly inflated by multiple ST/DEF scores and/or shortfields off turnovers.
It has weaknesses for sure… mainly alternately youthful or ancient DBs and a below-avg MLB that hoepfully will barely see the field vs. NE due to his deficiencies in coverage…. but it has also improved as the young players have matured. NE is a bad matchup given its weaknesses…
But NEs DEF is mediocre in my eyes, and judged by many to be POOR. Few folks who actually have watched more than 1 DEN game would say the same.
re: shortening the game
Absolutely that is a tactic for the worse team offensively, rather than the better. No one is claiming otherwise. We do not want to be in a shoot out with NE, because we will lose.
But the success rate of such a tactic is far higher than you give credit for…. because luck is a huge factor in NFL games, and if each team has only 6 or 7 possessions, it can easily be decisive.
cj
The only lucky part of a football game is the coin flip – every other happening is a result of an action or reaction on the football field. Most of these reactions cannot be predicted or even anticipated but, luck has nothing to do with the outcome of a football game. We (all fans) like to blame our team’s misfortune on a lucky-this or, a lucky-that, in reality, its just the way the ball bounces.
There is no such thing as luck – we invented the term to offer an explaination for our unexpected fortune… or misfortune.
by profootballfan on Jan 12, 2012 11:31 AM MST up reply actions
luck, non-predictive plays, whatever...
semantics aside, fumble recoveries are non-predictive events.
Call it whatever the hell you like, but it doesn’t change the fact that fumble recoveries are basically 50-50 for each team on the long run. Flipping heads 3 times in a row is the same thing… it happens, but just because it does, doesn’t mean you should expect it to happen again on your next 3 tosses.
Good gawd you pats fans are annoying twits.
0.o
Some of us are, but not all.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
This secondary is nowhere near as good as the Steelers
These guys aren’t 31st in the league because their awesome. Chung is just back from injury, we’ll see how his conditioning holds up. Their best pass rusher is out for the year. And they allowed 8.1 y/p/c against a team they knew was going to run the ball.
Adjustments are great and both teams will make them. As happens every week. What last week did was give a weak defense one more thing to think about. Exactly what you want a defense to do, think. Step slow is all an offense needs to make big plays, you saw that last week. Recognition just wasn’t quick enough for a good defense to make the plays. This isn’t a good defense. I look forward to seeing what we can do against them, if they are thinking too much.
15th
The Patriots D was 15th in the NFL in the only defensive stat that counts – scoring, your Denver Broncos were 24th. If, as you state, the New England D “isn’t a good defense”, what does that make the Denver defense ?? Let me answer that for you – worse than N.E.’s !
The Steelers made fundamental errors in their pass defense vs the Broncos this past weekend – what I’m saying is, the Patriots will not.
by profootballfan on Jan 11, 2012 2:40 PM MST up reply actions
see, this is where we diagree
Steelers had bad execution on a few plays. But the scheme was generally correct… don’t let DEN beat you on the ground. Once their D-line got banged up (where my guess is we would’ve run over even 8-man boxes), they had little choice but to go all-in vs. the run. And TT had one of his best games, where he basically hit on all of his deep throws… thats somewhat unlikely to happen again, simply because those are low-probaility plays against any DEF.
NE’s DEF isn’t as bad as its yards (many of which were garbage time late game gimme yards), nor is DEN’s as bad as its scoring performance (which is way skewed by blowouts vs. GB, DET, NET and BUF). You have a decent shot of stopping us with 8-in the box, but probably aren’t good enough to do it with 7 (really no one has yet)… if we can’t hit on some of the deep plays, you’ll likely win big.
DEN’s defense also played great against Pitt… a little help from the refs and a fumble by McGahee allowed Pitt back in it, but the combo of good DEF and TT hitting his big passes meant we basically dominated. It was by far the best game from our young DBs this year, and hopefully that improvement will carry over so Hernandez and friends don’t torch us again. NE matches up against our DEF better (short passing game is less conduscive to our passrush than a gimpy Rapist and deep threat receivers)… you basically dominated our young safeties with your receiver depth last time, and that well could happen again.
But just as getting healthy means you improved on DEF, our safeties have also seemingly improved with more experience. Will it be enough? Probably not unless TT is super-on again, but its not inconceivable either.
As has been stated by many for years, scoring defense only matters when your offense can't
I would hardly characterize NE’s offense as being unable to score. And that ability to jump ahead creates “offensive panic” on the other side, creating TO opportunities for the NE defense—which they are very good at. Without those turnovers, they don’t win their last 3 games. What they are not good at is holding field possession, or getting off the field. You can get away with both during the regular season. Much harder to overcome that in the playoffs.
As for the Steelers “fundamental errors in the pass defense,” that is usually in part because of what the offense was doing. So give credit where credit is due. Polamalu got beat by a TE on a play called especially to take advantage of what makes him great. James Farrior said it himself, “We didn’t see that on tape.” That’s a good scheme executed well against a good defense. Not a bunch of fundamental errors.
The Patriots made some “fundamental errors” against good schemes in the first game (cost them 16 quick points), as did the Broncos. Question is always whether those cost you or not. Saturday we’ll find out.
Tackling will have to be better
I don’t know how many YAC yards they got in the first game, but it was too many. Even when we only sent 3 at TB, they managed to turn 8 yard passes into 20+ yard plays routinely.
Drinkin the kool-aid, smokin the Orange Kush

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