what makes a good nickel cornerback?
by orange cube on Feb 16, 2012 12:05 AM MST
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Printa couple of posts here got me thinking. harris is a good nickel. phenomenal, really, considering he's a rookie undrafted free agent. but there seems to be a feeling that he may not develop into a good number two corner. and that sorta got me scratching my head, it got me to thinking about what it is that makes for a good corner, a great corner, and a nickel. so understand that this is no dissertation; i'm not lecturing. i'm just thinking out loud, and i invite comments and clarification -- which really is the beauty of mhr.
so; cornerbacks. the blazing fast acrobats of the football world. what do you want in a corner? you want speed, fluid hips to transition from backpedaling to inline coverage. you want a burst to recover, to close. good body control to get into the ball's trajectory, or at least muddy the receiver's line of sight,without touching him. pretty much, they have to do everything the receiver does, but they do the first half of it backwards and the second half not knowing where the ball is. tackling? sure. everybody likes a good tackler. but really, your prima donna shut down guys play ole defense as often as not. they make their livings breaking up balls, not so much bringing guys down. nobody likes it, but everyone knows it; corners are often the crappiest tacklers on the team. which is just another reason to love champ.
so what, then, makes a good nickel? they're sort of lb/corner hybrids. on pass plays, they cover. their man goes in motion, they go with him. but by default (only 2 lbs) on running plays they end up with gap responsibilities. they've got to hit and they've got to tackle. deion sanders wouldn't have gotten too far as a nickel.
so why shouldn't harris predictably grow into a starter? he's a tackler, for sure. his speed ain't bad, and although he's not all that big, he's pretty danged technically sound. if anything, i wouldn't have pegged him for a good nickel, just due to his size. so what am i missing? are there obvious deficits in his game that i'm just not seeing, deficits that will keep him from ever starting? what say you all? edjimucate me.
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The good nickel
Harris gives us a better chance to win every time he is out there , IMO.
by Broncos Fan since 66 on Feb 16, 2012 4:36 AM MST reply actions
i like him too
but when harris comes in, mays comes out, and our defensive interior, already suspect, gets that much softer.
"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different."
— Kurt Vonnegut
I disagree
Mays is a liability in both run and pass situations. In run situations he gets owned by backs who have any lateral shiftiness. He led the team in missed tackles last year missing 1 in 5. Mays needs to be relegated to goalline and special teams situations.
Win the individual battles at the LOS - all else flows from that.
by DE_BroncoFan on Feb 16, 2012 1:34 PM MST up reply actions
Agree entirely about Mays
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by Fabio Broncos on Feb 16, 2012 3:20 PM MST up reply actions
i got frustrated with mays, too
and he did miss some tackles, but his biggest limitation is lack of range. he’s a two down thumper whose limited coverage skills didn’t let us get creative with other guysb— like von. but just because we have a slow mike doesn’t mean we should aways go nickel. the solution is to get a better mike. irving?
"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different."
— Kurt Vonnegut
by orange cube on Feb 16, 2012 5:09 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
A good nickel
Like the #3 position in most other positions, just needs to excel against the challenge he is presented with. Now there are some other key factors though when it comes to nickel and dime play, most people in the slot are usually lightning quick and have great hands (Stokley, Welker, etc) so being quick is important as is the ability to wrap up. One of the greatest strengths of the slot is yards after the catch because most, not all, but most routes run are shallow across the middle or to the outside routes. Because of that, if you can tackles them quickly before right after the catch, there isn’t much of a gain for the offense.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
so, quickness > speed, wrapping up and limiting yac.
and it is possible to imagine an excellent nickel who’d be a lousy starter, and an excellent starter who’d be a lousy nickel?
"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different."
— Kurt Vonnegut
When it comes to starting CB's
Playing zone is much more key, whereas in the slot you are almost always on man. Almost any starter can play nickel, but starters who can play tight man coverage also play better than a starter who can’t play man as well. Take guys like Champ, Asomugha or Joseph, guys who play great man can make the switch to slot easier than starters who almost entire play man coverage, like those used in Tampa 2 defenses.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by Topher Doll on Feb 16, 2012 10:59 AM MST up reply actions
Tampa 2 clarification
Topher, I’m not certain if you understand what a Tampa 2 really is, it is a 2 deep zone with corners playing almost exclusively off the line zone coverage watching the quarterback almost as much as the receiver. They play 2 deep safeties with the goal of keeping everything in front of them and with the corners reading the quarterback hope to be able to jump routes and create turnovers via interceptions. It is very rare for a Tampa 2 corner to have good man to man bump and run cover skills.
I understand that, I think you may have misunderstood my comment
I agree that CB"s in the Tampa 2 need to be better at zone coverage moreso than man. when you look for a Tampa 2, or in part a basic Cover 2, corner, you look for a CB who can play zone, either shallow or dropping back in safety blitz’s. At least in the traditional Tampa 2 teams, Indy, Chicago, etc, their corners are excellent zone cover corners rather than man.
When I said:
Take guys like Champ, Asomugha or Joseph, guys who play great man can make the switch to slot easier than starters who almost entire play man coverage, like those used in Tampa 2 defenses.
I was saying that guys who “almost entire(ly) play man coverage, like those used in Tampa 2 defenses” I wasn’t referring to Champ and the others, I was saying those three players can play man better THAN those usually used in a Tampa 2 defense.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Fair enough
I must just be misreading your comment then, it just reads to me like you are stating CB’s that play Tampa 2 are good man corners.
I left a comma out
They can ruin any sentence.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
BTW: re: Asomugha
He was kinda ineffective this year playing the slot and zone for the eagles.
His best skill is his press-man coverage…. in the slot, the WR is often back from the line or moving in motion, so the ability to press the receiver is greatly diminished.
The eagles became a lot better when they changed up their scheme to allow Nmandi to jam receivers at the line and do his man-on-man isolation compared to zones, etc. they were running early year.
I read it the same way as you golfsnow
… and was similarly confused.
Tampa2 is really almost a cover3 scheme, where the MLB is playing a deep middle zone.
The corners are playing the short zones and flats, so they don’t need to be terribly fast (they don’t really have deep pass responsibilities) or good in man coverage (they aren’t following the receiver)… but they do need to be able to close down on short passes quickly and tackle well…
In effect, Tampa 2 corners are in some ways much more like the typical “nickel” corner (and vice-versa).
Also
Being a good tackle is a chalenge for a NB. He is covering the slot, but rushing plays are still a threat. Since he is aligned very close to the LOS, he is supposed to make plays out there if the offense doesn’t call a pass play.
And pass rushing ability is desirable for a NB too imo. For example Wilhite is not a great coverage CB, but he started very well for us last season making a couple nice sacks. If you have a NB who can reach the QB, your DC has a powerful weapon there to call some creative blitz packages.
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I bleed Orange & Blue. GB².
by Fabio Broncos on Feb 16, 2012 9:26 AM MST up reply actions
Great points
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by Topher Doll on Feb 16, 2012 10:59 AM MST up reply actions
that's interesting
If your NBC blitzes who picks up the slot guy, the fs? Sort of a db zone blitz?
"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different."
— Kurt Vonnegut
by orange cube on Feb 16, 2012 9:38 PM MST via iPhone app up reply actions
dang autocorrection. if your nickel back blitzes...
"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different."
— Kurt Vonnegut
by orange cube on Feb 16, 2012 9:39 PM MST via iPhone app up reply actions
It depends on your DC's creativity and ability to disguise the defense.
It could be your SS with your FS playing cover 1, it could be a LB, it could be a DE dropping into coverage in a zone blitz.
This signature was sacked by Von Miller.
I bleed Orange & Blue. GB².
by Fabio Broncos on Feb 17, 2012 8:49 AM MST up reply actions
Will Chris Harris ever be a starter CB?
Ask yourself a simple question
What do you think the probability is that he will have to be franchise tagged as he nears FA?
If the answer is near zero (my opinion), then he is not really a starter CB. NFL teams may “miss” on drafting a true CB – but they don’t “miss” on recognizing one near FA. And nickels are never remotely franchise tagged.
Oh - re his "weaknesses" at corner
Tackling is certainly a strength of his as a player – but as you say it is not a valuable skill set at corner. Coverage skills are all that matters at corner. Tackling only comes into play when coverage fails. Yeah – a guy like Champ can “cheat” a bit at coverage and get involved in tackling elsewhere – but that is pretty unique to Hall of Fame experience and reputation.
Corner only has one job measurement – take the opposing WR out of the game and by doing that force the opposing QB to use lesser options, and make it a 10-on-10 game. Harris’ size is gonna be a problem at CB. Especially since we already have probably the shortest smallest group of corners/nickels in the league. And Champ is the biggest and he’s the guy we have to ultimately replace at corner – and he’s on the small side for a CB now – compensated for by Hall of Fame experience and reputation.
So Harris taking out Gronk and Wes Welker in the first pats game wasn't impressive?
It wasn’t uncommon to see Harris lined up with some of the best slot WRs in the game as well as TEs. Also wasn’t uncommon to see him win a lot of those battles. Harris did a solid job this year. In doing so, he was named on the all-rookie team—so there has to be someone other than the broncos that liked him. Also it’ll be another two years before Harris hits free agency…which is a long ways a way. With that said, since the NFL is becoming more of a pass happy league and more slot WRs are being used—like Welker— a guy like Harris will become more valuable. Harris showed that he can not only keep up with Welker, but also shut him down. There were times where Tom Brady in the first matchup tested him. Brady got him a few times, but that was it. After that, Brady stopped throwing it his way. Brady went after other guys like Goodman and the safeties instead. So I don’t know if Harris will become a nice number 2, but his impact at NB cannot be overlooked.
In addition, as Goodman and Cromartie have shown, tackling is important for a CB. Tebow scored his game winning TD against the Jets because Cromartie didn’t want to tackle. A CB that can tackle is just as important as his coverage skills. Look at Charles Woodson for example. He is one the best CBs in the league because he can not only cover but tackle. Packers can drop him into the box and be essentially another LB. Revis can tackle as well. The best CBs in the game can tackle. So I don’t agree that having a CB that can’t tackle isn’t essential.
by tiderfootball09 on Feb 16, 2012 2:27 PM MST up reply actions
revis can tackle
except when it comes to tebow.
"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different."
— Kurt Vonnegut
I think Revis was more in shock lol.
The look on his face was awesome. As Gabriel Iglesias would say, “priceless.”
by tiderfootball09 on Feb 16, 2012 7:38 PM MST up reply actions
He was a little bored I guess lol
This signature was sacked by Von Miller.
I bleed Orange & Blue. GB².
by Fabio Broncos on Feb 16, 2012 7:57 PM MST up reply actions
deion pegged it; 'he made a career decision' in getting out of the way.
"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different."
— Kurt Vonnegut
by orange cube on Feb 16, 2012 10:10 PM MST up reply actions
IMO we have a very good core of CB's
I think Harris pushes Goodman for starter in camp. Syd and Cassius showed the skillset before injury. Bush is a sleeper. Robinson, Carter, and Moore are campers.
Top FA maybe. Draft more a possibility.
If no FA safety brought in then I see Bruton and Carter as starters. David Bruton really ‘showed-up’ in the end of 2010. Maybe a FA but no draft.
Kreese and Lawrence will decide if Tim Tebow can develop into our future.
Bronco fan since 1966. Current biggest Bronco fan in Vegas, living the good life.
i agree that harris will push goodie for 2
"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different."
— Kurt Vonnegut
Harris Is Nickle For A Reason
Andre Goodman is probably leaving Denver and getting replaced by a younger and better CB. Terrelle Thomas maybe? Harris is not quite ready to play #2 after one season in the NFL. So the next best thing is the nickle spot where he will get decent playing time and earn more experience while getting better.
Chris Harris is a FS
not a CB. He played very well this year though.
"I am not better than anyone else just because I play football."
Tim Tebow
he played corner safety and nb
sr. year first six games corner, last six safety, 2009 1st game nb then last eleven corner, 2008 first seven corner then finished season as nb, 2007 entire year as corner, and thejayhawk player bio lists him as ‘corner.’ http://www.kuathletics.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/harris_chris00.html
"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different."
— Kurt Vonnegut
by orange cube on Feb 16, 2012 10:15 PM MST up reply actions
I stand corrected.
Personally I think he is every bit as good as the 3rd or 4th round CBs people are mocking us. In fact better. He’s a proven commodity. We need young CBs that aren’t considered NBs. Harris would not have been worse than Goody this year at #2 CB.
"I am not better than anyone else just because I play football."
Tim Tebow
that's kinda where i'm at, too --
harris doesn’t have top end speed but he’s not slow, he’s another one of these smaller corners but he’s fundamentally sound and he’s risen to the challenge every time we’ve given him the opportunity so far. if we don’t end up with kirkpatrick (who i hope falls and we do get) or jenkins, i think harris may push goodie out the door.
"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different."
— Kurt Vonnegut
by orange cube on Feb 17, 2012 12:55 AM MST up reply actions
Chris Harris
Has really good potential. Possibly a Brandon Flowers kind of guy. Reminds me a lot of Brent Grimes.
The biggest thing with him is experience. He hasn’t seen everything an NFL corner has, it would be wise to wait for him a little longer and make him prove that he has what it takes. Furthermore I dont know if he has learned enough of the corner position to make the jump yet.
The things that concern me outside his experience are mainly his size and his deep speed.
I never really saw him tested deep like our outside corners so I cant comment on that but its important. Both Bailey and Goodman have great deep speed. He cant do much about his size but it is a concern which is why you regularly nickles as the smaller CB’s around the league.
harris and squid
are similar players, and both are probably better suited to playing inside rather than out.
Both are quick, instintive players that do a good job in the short-zones. Squid may have better ball skills, and Harris may be the better tackler. However both lack top-end speed and/or size needed to consistently play either the jam and/or deep zones often required of the outside CBs.
Either could do okay if we used more cover-2/Tampa-2 concepts that limit their exposure to deep routes… but that also somewhat limits our ability to get creative with coverage schemes and blitz packages (which could be okay given our elite passrush, particularly if we got a good inside rusher to complent VonDoom).
Vaughn has much better potential as an outside guy due to his better size/speed combo.
But given Vaughn is probably mediocre at best, and Squid/Harris don’t seem up to the task…. this is why I continue to say finding a CB to replace Goody is my top priority for the defense.
good thread
there are two ideas that can be discussed here:
1) What makes a good nickle corner.
2) What would prevent a player from being promoted to #1/#2
Different schemes might like different specifics in a nickle, but overall I would say the priorities would be: physical play (in a rookie I wouldn’t care if they were experienced at jamming or a fantastic tackler or anything like that, just that they had a very physical approach and mindset. They are going to get dirty, so the more they like it, the better off we’ll be), and very good hips, because they will need to swivel right and left an equal amount. Many CBs have a dominant “turning side”, including many very good corners, who would actually struggle if they moved into a nickle role for some reason. (The elite corners tend to be elite athletes, and don’t have this limitation). If I saw those two elements in a player, especially a rookie, I would feel like we had a near-term contributor at nickle.
You might look at the same player, and feel like nickle was their ceiling… I can’t speak for everyone, but 99% of the time, in rookies, I would get that impression based on speed alone. Slower corners (and we aren’t talking about snails here…they are still pretty darn fast…also, there are lots of different ways for a player to be slow) are a just such a huge liability. They are either giving away their technique presnap, or they are out of position.
So when talking nickle, my focus would be physicality and good hips for the position, and speed for the ceiling (and of course character and football smarts, yada, yada, yada). Everything else (size, zone vs. man preferences, backpedal, etc.) would be decoration to round the guy out.
I feel like we currently have a good stable, but not a lot of balance between extremes of age and experience. But I also feel like the time is right to be patient and keep seasoning the young guys while plugging in behind them. Rather than try to effect an immediate upgrade to the starters, I would rather see roster upgrades, to see the position as a whole become stronger and more balanced. Because what we are unsure about is the middle range for our DBs (in terms of experience) that necessarily means that we need to evaluate the young guys int he group, especially the ones that missed playing time in 2011. If those guys can move up (or stay) into your productive middle range, then you can confidently wait for them to challenge the starters. If they can’t move up or sustain their previous levels of play, then they will be easier to replace on the backend. I just don’t think the timing is right for needing to target a clear (re: expensive) DB starter in any phase of this offseason.
Perseverance, secret of all triumph.
by Jeremy Bolander on Feb 17, 2012 12:35 PM MST reply actions
lot of good stuff here
but disagree completely on the need for an immediate DB starter to be brought in.
While the return to health from Vaughn and Squid will help our depth, I don’t see any of our CBs being well positioned to replace Champ or Goody, both of which have steadily regressed since 2009. Getting a potential starter CB this year is critical to me because:
1) I think Goody will truly fall of the cliff in 2012 given his 2011 play; and
2) If you draft a young guy in the 1st/2nd round, he’s still going to need a year or 3 to develop before he’s likely to actually be good enough to replace Champ.
Bringing is a starter-caliber CB (Carr/Finnegan/etc.) would let us to continue to develop the young guys as eventual replacements to Champ and let us cut ties with Goody ASAP (and/or also give us depth for preseason injuries) which could immediately lead to a big jump in DEF performance (our secondary depth was just plain bad in 2011, as was clearly shown by our 40-bergers everytime we played a team with more than 2 quality receivers).
Alternatively, drafting a early round CB as an immediate replacement for Goody probably is a wash in terms of immediate performance, but also starts the process of reloading for Champ’s eventual demise….
Basically, if champ was young and in his prime, I might agree with you that we could stand pat and let the young guys develop… but in the next 2-3 years we need not just 1, but 2 starting caliber CBs… Even if you think Harris/Squid/Vaughn have the potential to become that, the chances of 2 of the 3 reaching that level are slim. Physical ability is a big part of that, and Vaugn (and Cox before he was stupid) both fit the somatype for playing outside better than Harris/Squid, unless we go to using much more Tampa2 concepts (in which case, we need a much better MLB).
For safeties, I think Carter looks like he likely can develop into a starter-caliber player… and thus am more willing to hold off to see if Moore/Bush/Bruton develops to compliment him. Bringing in vet depth would still be a smart move (and critical if Dawk retires), but I like the chances of developing 1 young guy more than developing 2.
this is good stuff indeed
so say we’re playing our over front and they run away from the nickel; now he’s basically a lb tasked with making the stop on a cut-back (d gap.) say, instead, they run to the nickel’s side. now he’s in the box, and in the over front i assume he’s responsible for the b gap. that’s a lot to ask of a kid who is 5’10" on his best day, 200# soaking wet. it would seem like we’d be looking for someone bigger, not smaller, someone with sufficient quicks to handle the slot on short to medium routes, but not really required to have the top flight speed for deep routes, and someone with the size and strength to take on backs with a full head of steam. and that’s why harris, and a lot of nickles, surprise me. they just seem too small. and that’s also why i suspect that we cannot take as given that all starters will make similarly good nickels. starters don’t have to be as physical and don’t need to read and react as rapidly; their roles are already clearly assigned. does any of that make sense?
"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different."
— Kurt Vonnegut
It makes sense, but....
Doesn’t work that way in practice. Nbs typically are smaller, not bigger.
Perahaps that will change with the emergence of receiving TEs and more us of nickel packages in nonpasing downs… But historically that hasn’t been the case.
Outside guys typically have been bigger in order to jam at the line… A task NBs dont really have to do.
Also
What you describe is why shanny, and some other teams, started using more 3 safety “big nickel” packages.
that makes sense
"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different."
— Kurt Vonnegut
by orange cube on Feb 17, 2012 10:28 PM MST up reply actions
to clarify
when I say the time is right to be patient, I hope I don’t give the impression that I’m happy with our current DB situation. I agree with much of what you are saying, I just don’t think this is a year of opportunity for either drafting or purchasing that young, mid-range solution to sort of leaven out our roster and make us feel comfortable. I’m afraid we need to endure a year of imbalance and discomfort in order to sort out the Vaughn, Harris, Squid possibilities. If EFX finds a solution in free agency, I would be all for it, I just don’t think its out there.
To another point you made, I DO think it is a great FA opportunity to upgrade the Mike, and I think the timing is right there for spending some cash. There are several guys (not Dan Connor, however) I would be pleased with, and I mentioned elsewhere that L.Fletcher is very attractive since he will likely be underrated on the market because of his age, which has the twofold benefit of a savvy contract opportunity, ala dawkins, as well as not tying up resources long term which might distract from continuing to invest in our ’backers via the draft. I am positive that Elway sees the LBs as the identity of his incarnation of the Denver Defense, and that they really want to cultivate the long term identity and bond that only the draft can provide.
Lots of ways to skin a cat, though.
Perseverance, secret of all triumph.
by Jeremy Bolander on Feb 17, 2012 11:49 PM MST up reply actions
elways four horsemen
Before the draft last year elway described a championship team as having a franchise a quarterback, left tackle, pass rusher and a shut down corner. They then went out and drafted Von. We have to wait and see what we have in timmy. I’m fine with clady. Von — all praise von. And champ — awesome. But getting a little long in the tooth. I know we need an interior lineman who can hopefully push the qb into the waiting arms of doom or Von. But if we get a shot at a kid who has the chance to be a true shutdown cornerback, I think we take it.
"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different."
— Kurt Vonnegut
by orange cube on Feb 18, 2012 7:11 AM MST via iPhone app up reply actions
Jonathan Wilhite was tied for 3rd all time Combines 3 scone drill.
That tells a lot for the athleticism of a prospect…Like fluid hip, not tight…albe bend and turn to close to cover…agility and many other things for an evalator/analyst to see, to say he could a good player. What’s lost in transition is Wilhite’s skillset for cover. That could be a myriad of things causing him problems, from instincts to vision. Who knows?
UDFA Chris Harris came on the scene like a wild fire and set a buzz all through the NFL world of journalism, even to the point that Mike Mayock issued an apology for not listing him in the draft. Harris may beat Wilhite, Thompson and any other 3rd DB that goes through FC…
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In-line speed and vertical ability
Separate starting corners from nickle corners. The nickle covers guys going over the middle, often on quick timing routes. So that nb needs to be able to cover well while in traffic, needs to be more quick than fast. Height and leaping ability and straight line speed aren’t as important.
I don’t know if Harris can make the transfer to an outside corner because he hasn’t really been used like that as of yet
By drafting the same position to fill the same need in back-to-back years, you lose the ability to gain two starters with two picks. And that's the goal of every draft.
It's time to give Nate Irving and Julius Thomas their first offseason... not draft their replacement.
by Rodney A on Feb 18, 2012 12:32 PM MST via mobile reply actions
I don'rt know
But Adam Levine makes Nickleback good.
Bazinga!
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