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Horse Tracks 3/11/08

Here's a Tuesday edition of Horse Tracks.  Enjoy!

Mike Kils mentions there are still holes to fill.  The most glaring is kicker and fullback.  See here

Kils also answered some fan questions in the Denver Post's mailbag too.  See here

Former Bronco and now conquered fader Javon Walker has quite an agent.  It's a shame that the Post got it out a week late.  See here

Former FB and Super Bowl champ Howard Griffith has been active in Illinois.  He is pushing for a bill to help adoptees find an identity.  Read for yourself here

AFC West

Here's a sign that a franchise is in horrible shape.  Both the 49ers and the conquered fader nation are such a concern because of incompetent owners that Roger Goodell may be forced to step in.  See here

Another blog wonders if the conquered fader nation would be better off if "Mr. Burns" aka Al stepped down.  See here

No news from either the Chefs or Phyllis and his merry men.

NFL News

It looks like the NFL is not immune to economic woes either.  HBO after 31 years cancelled "Inside the NFL" forcing NFL Films to lay off 21 workers.  See here

Who says you can't go home again?  Warrick Dunn is going back to where he started...Tampa Bay.  See here

Bottom of the Barrel

Will the Spygate thing ever go away?  I guess not.  See here

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I'm starting to feel about Spygate...
Like I felt about the Mitchell Report in baseball. It happened, yes, and sure, action should be taken, but I'm really, really sick of hearing about it by now. I know it's not the same for a lot of people, but it's gotten to the point where it's just been ingrained so much in my head by the media I really want it over with.
http://www.notthisday.com

by Squeaky on Mar 11, 2008 10:03 AM MDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

49er fans need to realize one thing
they have always had horrible owners.  Without Bill Walsh, the 49ers would have continued their 2-14 records from the 70's until now.  Bill Walsh created about 15-20 years of solid football in that organization, it has slowly fallen apart at an ever quickening pace since he retired.

The Raiders...they are in even worse shape. lol

by Zappa on Mar 11, 2008 11:41 AM MDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Raiders in worse shape?
Then what does that say about the Donkeys that lost to the Raiders the last time they played? (CRUSHED!)  Add onto that the fact that the Raiders have gotten better this off-season, now what does that say about the donkeys?

How does that taste?  MMM MMM Good!

OakFoSho

by Sneaky275 on Mar 11, 2008 6:51 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm sure you thought
Randy Moss would make the Raiders better too.  But instead you went from 5-11 in 2004 to 4-12 in 2005 and 2-14 in 2006.

And are you really talking smack that your team has won one of the last six against the Broncos?  I know that is the best weapon you've got, but I would have thought you would be smart enough to keep your mouth shut.

by MattR on Mar 11, 2008 7:02 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Aha!
What have you done for me lately?  You lost!  We are in the transition from the 07 to the 08 seasons, thus those are the only relevant periods to talk about, but if you want to talk about history, I am always down.  You just have to include All history, and not just the parts you like.  

OK, I'll begin, We have three SB Titles.  Due to the fact that this is the only real stat that matters, well it looks like I win.

OakFoSho

by Sneaky275 on Mar 11, 2008 8:19 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Just curious...
Where is your QB of the future spending his offseason? Has anyone on the team seen him?
Or so I'm told.

by MN Bronco on Mar 12, 2008 9:53 AM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes we have seen him, but.........
non of the media have.  Why?  Cause the Raiders organization keeps secrets better than the Gestapo, and we could care less what the media 'thinks' about what J Money's weigh 'might' be.  When he is launching bombs and crushing the West, his monstrous frame will be there for you to see.  Until then, guessing about the size of the monster playing Raiders QB will be all you can do.

OakFoSho

by Sneaky275 on Mar 12, 2008 6:49 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He weighs 272 lbs.....
Just 7 pounds over his playing weight, it was reported today from a Raiders source, though an anonymous one.  Thats usually how it works anyways, Al does not like people talking to the media, so when they do its anonymously.  This then allows the media to create stories, siting anonymous sources, and passing them on as fact.  In this sense, you never really know what the hell is going on, and it seems like a madhouse to the rest of the nation.  But on the inside, Al is just laughing, and the organization is functioning just fine, as it has for decades.

OakFoSho

by Sneaky275 on Mar 14, 2008 6:04 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You are referring here
to decades of futility, I am to assume?
I wish my sig was as cool as mdierks!

by styg50 on Mar 14, 2008 6:57 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It can be argued that the Raiders.....
have had a terrible stretch from 2003-2007, as well as the mid to late 90's when 8-8 seemed inescapable, but decades of futility?  Bah!

Anyways, no that is not what I meant, even if you are just talking about those two periods of time.  The Raiders organization is like a big black box.  You can't see in, and very little gets out.  This is why reporters try and make up rumors, because they dislike being held out of the loop, and want to drive the Raiders to respond, which they rarely do, unliess the rumor is just too rediculous, IE "J Money is 300 lbs".

OakFoSho

by Sneaky275 on Mar 14, 2008 7:43 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

interesting fact
Found this on espn.com

The Cardinals own rights to 48 players, counting three restricted free agents and franchise player Karlos Dansby. The other 31 teams claim 64 players on average. The Denver Broncos claim a league-high 78. Arizona is the only team with fewer than 54 (Kansas City).

Baby TO My new Fav Player

by TommyTSlice on Mar 11, 2008 2:00 PM MDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What this means is....
Many will be cut out by training camp.  Some could be practice squad players.  They will have to be down to 53 regular and (I'm not sure how many) practice squad players.  They will be over 80 guys by the time the draft is finished.  (some picks could be used for trades).
fader nation is a conquered nation

by mdierk on Mar 11, 2008 2:31 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

53 +8
Unless that is changed during the owner's meetings...

by John Bena (aka TheSportsGuru) on Mar 11, 2008 4:48 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Maybe the broncos have too many guys... but
Arizona with 48 is in deeeeep trouble. They don't even have that much salary cap room. You have to couple signed players with cap room, then you can tell who is in trouble and who is not.

How many people are left out there to be signed? The Free Agency is in a sad state.

If those extra 20 guys on the teams roster that get cut don't have quality, then your training camp becomes week. You can't find good future depth.

Orange County is hot. Really! Haven't you seen the weather report?

by amirebram on Mar 11, 2008 10:26 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Marlon McCree's contract
Posted this elsewhere, but this is the best spot.  The NFLPA posted McCree and Manuel
s base salaries on their website.

Manuel is getting 750K in 2008, 1.25 million in 2009 and 1.5 million in 2010.  He was reported to get a 500K signing bonus.  The total contract value was reported as 4.5 million which leave 500K unaccounted for.

As for McCree, he signed for only one year with a base salary of $1.5 million.  There are no details on signing or other bonuses.

by MattR on Mar 11, 2008 6:40 PM MDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Again......Conquered?
How are Donkey fans going to call the Raiders Conquered, when the Raiders STOMPED the Donkeys the last time they played?  You remember, Fargas Dancing into the end zone?  Again, DENIAL IS NOT A RIVER IN EGYPT, rather it is evidently the Donkey fan's current state of mind!

OakFoSho

by Sneaky275 on Mar 11, 2008 6:55 PM MDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yes Conquered...
2 wins against the Broncos since your last super bowl appearance.  I wouldn't trade Pat Bowlen for Al in any situation.  I suggest you talk when your team is above .500 again.  Yes your team won the last time and any good running team would have beaten the 2007 Broncos.  Hasn't it been a generation since the faders won a Super Bowl?

By the way, I loved when that tuck rule screwed you guys!

fader nation is a conquered nation

by mdierk on Mar 11, 2008 7:10 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Tuck Rule?
Wow, you like to kick people in the balls huh?  Well, in the past that would have meant something, but concidering the Pats are cheaters, I no longer feel bad about that play.  Not only did it take the Tuck Rule Gift from the refs to start the Cheatriots dynasty, but they had to cheat too.  I have no doubt that they filmed our signals just like everyone else's.  It just reaffirms that the Raiders were the better team, and that the NFL has been subject to the biggest scam ever.  I don't feel bad for The Raider Nation anymore due to the Tuck Rule, I feel bad for all NFL fans, including Donkey fans, that this great game has been cheated for so long.

By the way, the Raiders running game is going to be even better this season in year two in the system, so get ready to get Smacked Again!  Just like last year.

OakFoSho

by Sneaky275 on Mar 11, 2008 8:27 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

HUH
i didnt know they had internet at San Quentin state prison....
Baby TO My new Fav Player

by TommyTSlice on Mar 11, 2008 9:59 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

More like
Beijing Prison No. 2.
I wish my sig was as cool as mdierks!

by styg50 on Mar 11, 2008 10:36 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Actually.....
I am back in the US from my semester in Beijing, so San Quentin is just fine.

OakFoSho

by Sneaky275 on Mar 11, 2008 11:16 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ahhh, so not only are you a Raider fan,
you're also a traitor working with the Commies to steal our secrets.  You're going down man!!!  

;)

by Zappa on Mar 12, 2008 5:59 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

LOL!
I was studying international business, specifically Environmental management, and Mandarin.  Why?  Because I believe in helping the World by helping the Chinese, and everyone else as a result, clean up their environmentally hazardous practices.  Stealing secrets?  No, just helping the environment, and hopefully doing my part to save our planet.

OakFoSho

by Sneaky275 on Mar 12, 2008 6:53 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What is wrong
with the environment??
I wish my sig was as cool as mdierks!

by styg50 on Mar 12, 2008 9:59 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Actually, Denver will be.....
one of the first environments severely affected, and it already is.  Sporadic snow fall figures, record temperatures, diminishing snow pack with faster melts, its the same for us in the Sierras.  So in reality, there is a crap load wrong with the environment, especially in Denver.

OakFoSho

by Sneaky275 on Mar 13, 2008 1:08 AM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Apparently you haven't seen...
this year's snowpack in the rockies this winter.  All of the river basins in CO have been at or above 100% snowpack.  There is a road in northern New Mexico that is so snow covered they have had the road closed for the last 3 months!

They have also reported that this winter has the most snow cover nationwide since 1966.  Ask Guru, he had to dig out of 2 feet of snow last weekend.

fader nation is a conquered nation

by mdierk on Mar 13, 2008 8:21 AM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Pay attention to the word SPORADIC ......
Sporadic Snow fall figures means that they are all over the charts.  Besides your comments fail to recognize the problem.  The problem is not the amount of Snow that falls, its how quickly it melts.  Sustained snow pack allows the West to survive through the Summer and spring.  Wait until the end of the winter and then compare the snow pack data from Colorado, the Sierras, add the rest of the US where snow falls.

I can guarantee that the figures will be well below normal nation wide, and in Colorado.  However if Colorado escapes the effects for one winter, that will not be unusual.

If you still want to argue, go watch An Inconvenient Truth, I know its mainstream, but its the easiest way for you all to learn quickly that we are all screwed without change.

OakFoSho

by Sneaky275 on Mar 13, 2008 1:10 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sorry,
I don't buy Al Gore's arguement.  There is nothing to learn there.
fader nation is a conquered nation

by mdierk on Mar 13, 2008 1:24 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm with you, Gore doesn't make any sense
I learned that sun cycles were the responsible for 99% of climate change.

Makes a lot more sense than any of his theories...

I wish my sig was as cool as mdierks!

by styg50 on Mar 13, 2008 2:37 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes Sun Cycles....
Are responsible for the rediculous Green House Gas figures that are off the charts (IE never been this high before) and destroying our planet.

OakFoSho

by Sneaky275 on Mar 14, 2008 12:07 AM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ahh
Still beating the Green House Gases drum, huh?  This is the 21st century sneaky, bad science is on its way out.  I wasn't even aware that anyone still considered ghg to be a relevant topic anymore...

What with the suncycle discoveries and all...

I wish my sig was as cool as mdierks!

by styg50 on Mar 14, 2008 12:34 AM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Always and forever....
till I, or our plannet dies, I will be preaching about GHGs and their harmful effects.  If you chose to ignore the obvious, just like the Raiders being better than the Donkeys, then so be it, go enjoy your sun cycles, but remember to tell your grandchildren later in life that you were one of the dummies that ignored the Earths Warnings.

OakFoSho

by Sneaky275 on Mar 14, 2008 2:38 AM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And no I am not calling you a Dummy...
so don't get it twisted like every other thin skinned Donkey Fan.  Its a hypothetical future state of being.  You can still avoid it, but your close.

OakFoSho

by Sneaky275 on Mar 14, 2008 2:40 AM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I see
Recomendations:

Bjorn Lomborg's statistical analysis, though his explicit ideas generated from the data are pretty lame.  He didn't react well to the whole "pie in the face" thing and he has backed  off of his initial claims quite a bit in the media, even explicitly denying some of it.  However the data he uncovered is still out there, whether he likes it or not, and it is too late for him to take it back.

This video though be prepared to chuckle a little at the weight given to suspicion of conspiracy.  Conspiracy theories are nice and all, but when bad science and bad politics abound, the culprit is usually wholesale acts of evasion of the obvious, not concentrated efforts by armies of bad guys.  There are some philosophical issues they gloss over which undercuts the message tehy are trying to deliver, but the testimony from scientists cuts a pretty broad and comprehensive swath through where the legitimate research is heading.

The late economist Julian Simon's book "The Ultimate Resource" and his updated version "The Ultimate Resource 2".  Not directly related to the science behind environmentalism, but relevant in terms of discovering the motive guiding environmentalism's intellectual leaders.

Let me know what you think.

I wish my sig was as cool as mdierks!

by styg50 on Mar 14, 2008 4:44 AM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hey Styg,
I'm hoping you can join me in my SUV for a drive tomorow.  Let's drive seperatly so we can double our human imprint.  

We can discuss how I had to replace global cooling projections taught to school children from the 1960's through the mid 80's with materials changing over to global warming.  I used those lessons at the same time I used "Animal Farm" and "1984".  (We also melted ice cubes in glasses of water to show that there was no change in water level).  

I know it isn't as simple as that, but I take the word of a friend of mine from my grad school days who was a climatologist.  He shared with me how the Academy of Sciences ripped the global warming crowd, and explained to me the political origins of the global warming conspiracy theorists and how they brainwash kids in a lot of colleges now a days.  Of course, I saw a lot of revisionist history being taught in political science when I was a prof too.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Mar 14, 2008 5:14 AM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Dudes.......
We are getting a little to far the THE RIGHT, both literally and figuratively, so my response to your last comments is at the bottom of the page.  

OakFoSho

by Sneaky275 on Mar 14, 2008 6:20 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Environmental Nazi
Did you know that millions of years ago the average temperature was about 20-30 degrees higher than it is now?  

I believe our climate change is going to happen no matter what.  After that, an Ice Age will come about.  Our current temperate climate is actually an abberration in our Earth history.

Go hug a tree and blame humanity for all of our problems.  Actually, blame AMERICA for all of Earth's problems...nevermind that China is the worst polluter anywhere.  

by Zappa on Mar 13, 2008 10:43 AM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

fader running game
your kidding yourself if you think fargas is a long term answer at the rb position and that oakland can remove head far enough from rectum to see that bush should be their main back.

They didn't give Bush a chance last year (when they had ideal opportunities) so this year, when they will actually be able to win a few games and might have something worth playing for, no doubt they will find some grand way to ruin the kids career.

The faders should be fined for what they've done to young talent in this league...

I wish my sig was as cool as mdierks!

by styg50 on Mar 11, 2008 10:03 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Fargas is a perfect fit.....
in the ZB scheme.  He is a one cut back with a tone of speed.  Rhodes is a SB MVP who ended the season with two straight 100+ yard games, and Bush is finally fully healed.  The guy had his leg reconstructed and that takes a long time.  Don't be bitter that you all needed a RB and we did not release one that would have helped you.  It was a great move, and Bush will prove it this season.

OakFoSho

by Sneaky275 on Mar 11, 2008 11:10 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yah, because you are starting to copy our scheme
Or hadn't you noticed that you have signed two old Broncos OL to help you implement the zone blocking right?

Yes the best you have are our cast-offs.

Orange County is hot. Really! Haven't you seen the weather report?

by amirebram on Mar 11, 2008 10:30 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

While the Raiders do run the ZB scheme.....
we do not employ the Donkey's method of illegal cut blocking below the knees.  The Raiders legally cut block at the thighs.  The proof is in the number of players that have had career altering/ending injuries against the Donkeys.

OakFoSho

by Sneaky275 on Mar 11, 2008 11:14 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

We need to have an article on MHR University
I think you need to learn the difference between a cut block (illegal) and a chop block (legal).  Denver chop blocks, and frankley, so does oak.  And in your comment you mention "legaly cut blocking", which of course is an oxymoron.  There is no legal cut block.  

More importantly, there is no zone block without the chop block, otherwise an OL couldn't block a DL who is slanting in the same direction as the OL, but where the OL is in front of the OL.  In sum, you can't run a zone block scheme without chop blocking, unless you are willing to not block (at all) every one gap lineman or LB who is slanting (which is just over half of the time).

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Mar 12, 2008 3:14 AM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Didn't they just start to go ZB heavy just ...
... just this past season? They didn't use much of ZB when they had Art Shell as HC. Nor did they use much of a ZB scheme with Norv or Gruden in the past.

So, yah mr faider, you did start to copy the Broncos. There is a reason you have 2 former Bronco linemen.

A couple of other teams that used former broncos linemen are/were Atlanta and Huston--both use(d) ZB scheme. They even both used former denver OL coach Alex Gibbs.

Orange County is hot. Really! Haven't you seen the weather report?

by amirebram on Mar 12, 2008 5:46 AM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I second this notion, even the
college educated Raider fan needs to be schooled about basic football knowledge.  :P

Sneaky, you started this crap talking extravaganza!

by Zappa on Mar 12, 2008 6:01 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

First of all....Are you serious man....
You got it completely WRONG!! AHA!  Actually, this is the real difference between a Cut and Chop block.  There is a gray area between the LEGAL cut block and the ILLEGAL chop block. The cut block occurs when a player (usually an offensive lineman) blocks another (usually a defensive lineman) at the thighs with his helmet in front of the player. The chop block occurs when the same block comes from the side or the back, or when the defensive player is engaged with another offensive player and therefore defenseless.

I think that Hoosier teacher needs to go back to school, before he embarrasses any more Donkey fans with his completely false statements.

OakFoSho

by Sneaky275 on Mar 12, 2008 7:03 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes and no.
Your description of the two blocks is accurate.  Most people don't even get that right, so I commend you.

But I wouldn't call it a gray area.  The two are very distinct and the chop block doesn't figure into zone blocking at all.

You had mentioned in an earlier thread that:

"we do not employ the Donkey's method of illegal cut blocking below the knees.  The Raiders legally cut block at the thighs."

I took that to mean that there are legal and illegal "cut blocks", which you have since corrected with your current comment.  An "illegal block below the knees" is not cut blocking as described in your first comment.  I am willing to accept this was an honest mistake, since you have cleared up the error in your subsequent comment.

I don't see where I have made any false statements as you state.  If you do, I hope you will point them out so I can defend them or correct them.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Mar 13, 2008 6:02 AM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

HT is such a great guy
What a nice, classy way of telling him he contradicted himself. ;)
I wish my sig was as cool as mdierks!

by styg50 on Mar 13, 2008 2:38 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Your mistake is clear to see,
but I will highlight it for you.  You said....

"I think you need to learn the difference between a cut block (illegal) and a chop block (legal).  Denver chop blocks, and frankley, so does oak.  And in your comment you mention "legaly cut blocking", which of course is an oxymoron.  There is no legal cut block."

In fact, cut blocks are LEGAL, to a certain extent, and chop blocks are ILLEGAL, always.  THis is your mistake.  Also, as for you saying I contradicted myself and made a mistake, I made it very clear in my second comment that a legal cut block is at the thighs, or ABOVE the knees, and an illegal cut block is BELOW the knees.  This changes nothing about my first comment, rather it only serves to expound further on the previous statement.  Nothing changed in my logic or argument.

OakFoSho

by Sneaky275 on Mar 14, 2008 12:15 AM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Again, you are correct.
Cut blocks are legal, and chop blocks are illegal.  Both teams cut block.  In fact, every team (not just Denver and not just zone block teams) cut blocks.

The juxtaposition of the terms "cut" and "chop" were my error of course, but I would hope (that by implication) you might note that I not only used the terms correctly subsequently, but also correctly in our previous discussion some weeks ago.  You might then have recognized that I had made in error in typing out my thoughts, and that I was familiar with the terms (and not trying to "falsify" anything).

You might also note that I extended that kind of courtesy to you by noting that your slip of using the phrase "illegal" cut blocks was a genuine mistake.

However, I'll reiterate that a block below the knees is just plain illegal and has nothing to do with cut blocking.  It is not the purpose of cut blocking, nor the intent.  You could call any block below the knees an illegal "something or other block" and it would be immaterial.  For instance, an "illegal pass block below the knees" would imply that there is a correlation between pass blocking and going for the knees.

Last, you may have missed it, but I stated in my previous comment to you that you were correct in defining the terms.  I thought you would understand from that admission that I had recognized that I had misplaced the terms in much the same way that you had associated "cut" with "illegal".  So you really didn't need to explain to me in your last comment that I had erred.  I had already conceeded the point.  Whether you can do the same is your choice.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Mar 14, 2008 5:02 AM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You still dont get it......
so read carefully please.

The conversation we had took place months ago, the week prior or after the Raider's beat the Donkeys  in Denver, and I cannot remember your exact words, so if you want to cite the conversation details, put up the link, otherwise I will assume you have not really gone all the way back and looked at it.

I am glad that we are on the same page regarding the legality of the Chop and Cut blocks, however there is still more that you need to understand.  The chop block is clearly defined as a block that occurs when a block below the waist comes from the 'side or the back', or when the defensive player is 'engaged with another' offensive player and therefore defenseless.

This definition fails to cover the below the waist block from the front, IE the cut block.  Therefore there has two be a separate definition to cover the cut block to determine what is legal.  As a result there is a legal, AND AN ILLEGAL way to cut block, that have nothing to do with the Chop block, cause neither is covered in the definition of a chop block.

Again, a legal cut block is above the knees, while an ILLEGAL CUT BLOCK is below the knees FROM THE FRONT as this area is not covered in the Chop block definition.  So yes, all teams cut block, but the Donkeys illegally cut block, and the proof of this is in the disproportionate #s of injuries caused by Donkey cut blocks compared to other teams that employ the practice of cut blocking on a regular basis, mostly those teams that run the ZB scheme.

Thus, my use of the phrase "illegal cut block" is correct, as is the rest of my analysis on this subject.

OakFoSho

by Sneaky275 on Mar 14, 2008 8:04 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And you were doing so well
I used the search box in the upper right corner of MHR's site to verify my previous comments.  It took about a minute, and would take you about the same.

The cut block as used in the ZB scheme is not from the front.  I'll cover that in my Univ. article.  (You'll recall, perhaps, that it is used predominantly against slanting, one gap runners.)  Some people try to defend the cut block by saying it is a legal block because it is executed to the front.  This is not entirely correct, and I don't do it.  The helment is to the front of the defender (otherwise the block is an illegal block to the rear), but the actual impact from the OLs shoulder is to the defender's thigh.  So you could call the block a "frontal" block, and many people will in defense of the block.  By the rules it is also because of the location of the helment.  But you and I both know (because I have been involved in years of coaching and you because you probably do research for your dislike of the tactic) that the actual hit of the OLs shoulder pad is delivered to the "common peronial nerve" that runs down the lateral side of the thigh.

I again want to commend you for something.  Most folks doing a quick online search for the term "cut block" will find it being confused with the term "chop block", even by so called "expert" sites.

However, injuries are not proof of illegality.  Players can and do get injured on legal plays all of the time.  Simply because a block can be delivered illegaly ("a cut block below the knees") does not invalidate the method.  It is for that semantic reason that it is incorrect to associate the term "cut" with being illegal.  Where a player has delivered an illegal hit because the hit was below the knees, it was not because the block was a "cut" (the proximal action), but because the block was specificaly below the knees (the definitive action).

Coming from the perspective of a team that is associated with dirty plays and ending careers, I am sure you can appreciate the difference.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Mar 15, 2008 2:27 AM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This goes unsaid as it is common knowledge....
that, technically, a blocker must get his helmet on the front side of the defender.  The block may come from the side, but as long as the helmet gets around to the front its a legal cut block, and deemed 'FROM THE FRONT'.  A block is only deemed from the side, if the helmet does not get around, and again would be deemed a CHOP. Thus as I said, all CUT blocks are from the front and below the waist.  Nothing has changed, and my argument is totally valid.  

Sure the shoulder pad hits the side of the leg, but the rule is defined with the helmet in mind, because it serves as the dividing point of a blockers body.  Thus, with the head in front, the greater portion of the blockers body is then, by default, also in front.  This is why the shoulder pads don't matter when defining the rules.

As a matter of fact, this is true for any block.  Above the waist, without the helmet on the front side, and a block becomes a clip (unless engaged in the tackle box).  Below the waist, without the helmet on the front side, and block becomes a CHOP, and thus has nothing to do with CUT Blocking from the front, which, in the end, is why the helmet in front goes without saying.

Also, again, all blocks below the waist, from the front, are cut blocks, the legality of which is determined by the location, above or below the knees, of the block.  PERIOD!!  There is nothing that you can say to refute this no matter how hard you try.  A block from the front, below the knees, will always be called, an ILLEGAL CUT BLOCK.  Associating the terms 'illegal' and 'cut block' does make sense, because the term 'CUT BLOCK' covers all blocks from the front, below the waist, legal or illegal.  It cannot be said more clearly, and it cannot be refuted, CAUSE ITS THE RULES.  If you have a problem with the word association, take it up with the NFL, cause I could care less.  Rules are Rules, and who the hell am I to change or RENAME a block?  What would you call it anyways, other than an illegal cut block?  Lets see how that would sound!

Referee:  "We have an illegal block, below the waist, from the front, but below the knees!  15 yard penalty, repeat the down!"

I think not!  Instead tis is the reality.....

Referee:  "We have an illegal cut block!  15 yard penalty, Repeat the down!"

So there it is, written out detail, by detail, so there can be no confusion.  I even gave you a real life example (BONUS), so if you still have a problem, again, take it up with the NFL, its their rules, and their names regarding those rules.

Regarding Injuries:  Yes they happen all the time with out illegal action, but the disproportionate # of injuries as a result of Donkey Illegal Cut Blocks, and Chop Blocks, as compared to other ZB teams, is all the proof that is needed.  The Donkeys are dirty!!

OakFoSho

OakFoSho

by Sneaky275 on Mar 16, 2008 3:02 AM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I gave you too much credit
First, a chop block involves two blockers.  One above, and one below the waist.  This is dangerous because the blocked player is braced in a manner that he is receiving pressure from two directions that can injure his knee.

Second, it is you that needs to take up the issue with the NFL, not me.  The NFL and I are both in agreement that the cut block is no more dangerous than any other block, and it is deemed legal.

Last, your rant about how a cut block is defined or not defined by a referee is humorous, but demonstrates that you missed my point entirely.  Cut blocks are not, by themselves, illegal.  Any block can be legal or illegal depending on its execution.  What you and others of your ilk do is attack the cut block for being dirty, but failing to mention that it (like any other block) is NOT inherently illegal.  If I used your fallacious logic, I could complain that "passes should be made illegal" and base this foolishness on the idea that because I saw a QB throw a pass out of bounds "passes" must be a dirty thing.

Denver does not have a disproportionate history of illegal blocks.  This was borne out in a press conference during which Coach Shanahan showed film of other teams using the same cut blocks that Denver uses in every game.  Denver's blocks are above the knees just like everyone else's.  The NFL has not singled out Denver, and has not changed the rule because what Denver does is safe and legal.

Here's the kicker.  Look over every season in the NFL, and see which team has led the league in BOTH penalties as well as personal fouls (dirty play) in the last 35 seasons.  24 of those seasons belong to,

wait for it.... wait for it... wait for it...

the oakland raiders.

In summation, continue to complain all you want.  If you were in the right the NFL would be all over this.  It is a baseless charge that some fans make because they don't understand the rules and the NFL does.  It is also a charge leveled by players that don't like shooting a one gap knowing that they are going to be the guy taken down (somthing most defenders aren't used to).  The bottom line is that the NFL (the authority on what the rules are and what is dirty or not) agrees with me and not you.  This is not, by the way, the logical fallacy of "appeal to authority".  It is a proper use of redress to "THE" authority (such as citing the Supreme Court on matters of constitutional law).  You don't have to like the rule, and you may think that the rules exist the way they are soley to disadvantage your team and to help the Broncos.  But you would still be engaging in conspiracies.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Mar 16, 2008 7:12 AM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

WOW!! You are soooooo Slow!!
Again, ONE definition of a CHOP block involves two players.  One player engages high, and another comes from the side or back.  However, a block by a single player from the side or the back, below the waist is a CHOP block.  SO AGAIN YOU ARE WRONG!!!! AHA!

You have to be the slowest Donkey fan ever, as I already stated this like 3 times previously in defining what the NFL considers to be  a CHOP block. AHA!  

So again, if you have a problem with this, then take it up with the NFL.  Cause you are just regurgitating the same stuff that I have proven incorrect in previous statements.

AHA!  You again (for the 100th time) said...

"Cut blocks are not, by themselves, illegal."

And I, again (for the 101st time) say that there are two types of CUT block.  One illegal, and one legal, both from the front, and below the waist.  You know you cannot refute this, so you choose to beat a dead horse, as well as make fun of my official example.  Well good, it was supposed to be funny, cause that just how your argument sounds, thus my example totally served its purpose, so thank you!  AHA!

Finally, you say.....

"any block can be legal or illegal"

And this too is wrong.  A chop block is always illegal, so is a Clip.  A crack block is always legal, unless from the back, and then it becomes a clip or if below the waist a CHOP.  

Please continue to respond, BECAUSE YOUR LACK OF KNOWLEDGE IN THIS AREA IS HILARIOUS, AND YOUR REFUSAL TO ACCEPT REALITY IS TOO!!  Not to mention, every time you reply you make even more mistakes. AHA!  Its beautiful, you keep digging your own grave, and no matter how clearly I spell it out to you, you just too slow to stop digging.

I feel really bad for you, really I do, anyone so stubborn not to accept truth and reality when its right in front of their face are either blind, or stupid.  I'll not dare to assume which one though. However, at the same time, this is comedy.

OakFoSho

by Sneaky275 on Mar 17, 2008 12:34 AM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Styg50 Videa Response....Global Warming.....
I am going to use the Al Gore train of thought, from his video, cause I believe in the vast majority of what he states in his video.

Ok, so the first argument in the film (Styg50s film that he wanted me to watch) is that "the climate is always changing and temperature has always been variable over a long periods of time."  Al Gore says the same thing.  What they fail to state, that Al Gore does not, is that the Warming period we are in now is disproportionate to other times in the past, in that it is happening over such a shorter period of time.  Normally, 'Warming periods' happen over millenniums, not centuries, and plant and animal life have the chance to evolve and adapt.  Unfortunately, as a result of this pace, our world is going through a period called 'the sixth great extinction', due to human populations, habitat loss, and the rapidly growing climate crises.

Sure, as the video says, there have been warmer times when the Earth was mostly covered tropical forest, and cooler times when most of the earth was covered in Ice, but those happened over lllllloooooooonnnnnggggggg periods of time, again, not centuries.  Also, during warmer times, the planet had huge numbers of plant life to regulate the CO2 in the atmosphere.  Yes there have been times, Warmer Times, when CO2 levels were even higher than today, however there were all those plants and trees to regulate it.  If fact, the overabundance of trees in some periods, directly led to the periods of cooling, following periods of Warming, thus forming a cycle, that spanned the ages.  Unfortunately, that plant life is vastly depleted, and as a result the cycle is on the verge of being broken.  There is no way to regulate the CO2 levels in the atmosphere without the plant life, not to mention those CO2 figures are highly inflated due to humans, thus the Global Warming scenario we find ourselves in.

OakFoSho

by Sneaky275 on Mar 14, 2008 6:41 PM MDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The next argument the Video makes......
is to say that the Warming period started pre-WW2, and that does not coincide with the drastic uptick in CO2 levels post-WW2.  What they conveniently leave out, are the figures from the industrial revolution.  They only use those facts from the 1900's that work for their statements, but do not take a look at the big picture.  CO2 levels have in fact been rising disproportionately to past periods in the earths history since the first industrial revolution.

OakFoSho

by Sneaky275 on Mar 14, 2008 6:53 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

They also failed
to mention how co2 levels dropped during the industrial revolution.  Co2 simply isn't an accurate measurement of climate change.  The climate is less affected by what less than 1% of its surface area is up to than what a raging ball of fire 1000 times its size is doing.  I question any premise that would even begin by not looking at the earth as part of a larger system than viewing the earth as a somehow closed system that can only be affected by whats on it.

It seems to me that unless there were people in space that humans wanted to exert their rule over, they don't see a reason to look any further than the nearest producer...

I wish my sig was as cool as mdierks!

by styg50 on Mar 14, 2008 7:32 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What I mean to say is
I am not interested in a point by point refutation of scientific points of inquiry.  That was a major error in the "Skeptical Environmentalists" approach.  Like Hercules fighting the Hydra, whenever you bop off one head, another "great myth" grows back to replace it, usually before you can even enjoy your victory over the first. 352 pages of text and 182 footnotes later, Lomborg met the ultimate resistance.  Lomborg did a herculean task in all the data he compiled and analyzed, but his error destroyed him, since for all that work he didn't make any progress.

My issue with environmentalism is primarily an epistemelogical one.  No matter how logical or clearly presented scientific evidence is that is presented against it, the unyielding barrier never gives.  The unyielding barrier is irrationality, worship of uncertainty, indulgence in fabrication of arbitrary assertions and the enshrinement of self-sacrifice as the pinaccle of morality.

Understand, Sneaky, that I do not level these statements without care.  I understand that this probably is an issue that you take very seriously, and in that light I utter these comments with the utmost gravity, because I care deeply about it too.  Environmentalism at its root demands arbitrary speculation, and worse, arbitrary action usually at the behest of some government or another, i.e., under threat of force.  It is a political ideology, not a scientific one.  Science has no ideology.  There is only fact and not fact.  Reality suffers no mistake in allegiance because it is the framework that makes allegiance possible.  Science is the language of that framework.

I don't address this at you Sneaky.  For whatever reason you are involved in the work you are doing, and even though you are a raider fan, I still couldn't honestly believe that you are out there trying to hurt anyone.  But I do wonder about your acceptance of that ideology, because it frames your work, and regardless of what good you are accomplishing through your work, that value is at risk from an ideology like that.

It is one thing to be a scientist (even an economic one) cleaning up pollution, which is harmful.  It is another thing to be a cypher for a corrupt philosophy that holds anti-life as its highest value.  I don't believe you are the latter.  But the roots of bad philosophy extend deep into the epistemological framework of men's minds, and instead of delivering the nutrients of life they corrode and eat away at the best within us, leaving a hollow shell that isn't capable of holding us upright any longer, let alone leaving us capable of protecting anything we value.  It takes a long time and the wear is sometimes unnoticeable.  But one place you can always find it?  In the future, when those anti-life premises go unchecked.

I wish my sig was as cool as mdierks!

by styg50 on Mar 14, 2008 8:24 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So lets try this from another angle then.......
I am an environmentalist, and a naturalist, (I grew up 5 minutes from Berkeley, just to give you some understanding) and I agree with the idea that Global Warming does exist, obviously.  At the same time, I do not believe that I am 'framed' by a greater political ideology seeking its own gains and obsessions, although I believe that many people are.  The reality is that each and every person needs to find their own truths, and after viewing both sides.  I have chosen one and gone full bore ahead.

Its not just about Global Warming, and I think we might just have to agree to disagree here, though that is a huge part of it.  Its about resource depletion, plant species extinctions, animal species extinctions, and pollution, to name a few.  Honestly, I feel that enough of the world is on the 'Global Warming is Real' side of the argument, that the future is bright, at least for us humans.  Also, I believe in human ingenuity, and there are already several theories as to how to reduce the GHG in the atmosphere.  (One is as simple as algae production in the Ocean.  The algae eat the CO2, die or are eaten, waste CO2 settles in silt.)

So while I understand your argument and problem with mainstream political environmentalists, I don't consider myself one, though I do agree with much of what they say.

OakFoSho

by Sneaky275 on Mar 14, 2008 11:35 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No disrespect intended
You clearly come at a so-called "scientific" theory from a political ideological bent.  You did, after all, refer to our discussion as getting too far to the right figuratively.

...And Berkley notwithstnding.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Mar 15, 2008 2:46 AM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It was just a joke......
As it is my assumption that most people from Denver, or Colorado in general are, politically, on the right.  

On the contrary, my environmental views are very much a result of real world experience. I have seen the terrible result of pollution, and resource depletion in 3rd world countries, especially in East Asia.  On the other hand my political views very much surround my real world experience dealing with 'poverty' in those countries, whether working or volunteering, not the environment.  However, they do intertwine themselves and are highly related in many cases.

OakFoSho

by Sneaky275 on Mar 16, 2008 3:13 AM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Oh come on now
You really need to stop backing off of your positions with "I was just joking".  It seems to be a frequent problem.  Jokes don't come across well on the internet (or in print).  When you make threats, talk about violence you have seen, make comments about rules, or make comments about where a comment thread falls politicaly, people are going to take you at your word.

For what it is worth, Colorado (and Denver) are very purple in terms of political ideology.  When I was doing my grad work in poli sci I was involved in a lot of lobbying work in Denver.  It wasn't uncommon to see strange political alliances because of the even divide.  It was a perfect place to study politics at the city and state level.  The tone was also more pleasant than in many other states because of the relative moderation of both parties.

We agree about the need to address pollution.  It is clearly an issue that should be fixed.  My problem is that every valid issue has extremes.  Fighting for a clean environment is great, but some extremes of the environmentalist movement are political and insincere (except to the true belivers that are culled primarily from naive college kids).  

Such as: "Let's ban domestic drilling and ban building refineries to process oil so that the price of oil goes up and we have to depend on oil from countries that are unfriendly to us.  Then we can blame our own oil companies for being evil doers and punish them with taxes to fuel our own agendas.  We can also claim to be against those 'evil' companies to get more voters to join our cause."

Both the left and the right use these methods, but it is to be hoped that most folks can see through "politics" versus bad science (particularly stats).  Bad science is also used in everything from abortion to capital punishment to gun control to reporting on military engagements.

We are way off track in threads and should really stick to football.  But I wish you well in all you are doing to help keep the environment clean.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Mar 16, 2008 7:33 AM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It doesn't matter what you think.....
Because I know that it was a joke, and the next time Colorado goes Democrat in the Presidential Election, maybe the stereotype that it is right leaning will be changed, but until then, nope!  Especially from the point of view of liberal coastal California.  In fact only once since 1962 has Colorado voted Democrat, 1992, for the GREAT BILL CLINTON!!! Brings a tear to my eye!!

OakFoSho

by Sneaky275 on Mar 17, 2008 12:18 AM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sneaker, I share your concerns with environmental
degradation, loss of habitat, resource depletion, etc.  However, my concerns with the political responses to GW are based on the all too common simplistic, one-dimensional responses that most political decision making models are based on.  I am not accusing the science community of producing bad scientific models that demonstrate the occurence or non-occurence of GW and the relationship of greenhouse gases (GHG), my concerns are based on the type and degree fo the interrelationship between the scientific decision making community and the political decision making community.

 Science is an open ended process of self discovery and continuous affirmation, negation and reaffirmation of significant questions.  The political decision making process is based on trying to achieve a balance amongst many competing interests.  The saddest aspect of this process is that the decision makers are rarely concerned with the long range impacts of their decisions or with the validity of information they use to make their decisions, they are usually more concerned with the public's perception of the information.  

My fear is that a great number of knee jerk reactions are being taken by political decision makers in regards to GW.  A lot of decisions that are fatally flawed are being justified because they use the rider of "helping in the fight against GW".  Extremely complex decisions regarding the use of limited natural resources are often limited to one dimensional matrixes.  An example would be the conversion to nuclear energy to minimize GHG from coal burners.  Although the questions of proper disposal/containment of nuclear waste byproducts still need further development, the recuctions in GHGs from countries like France that have converted from coal burning to nuclear power are obvious and quantifiable.  Unfortunately, the nuclear power option is often attacked vehemently by the same environmentalists that want to redues carbon emissions from coal burning.  These criticisms are strange and are one of many examples of the complexity of the issue.

Sneaker, on a personal level, in spite of the fact that I am a devout rh (rader hader), I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors to mitigate the loss of habitat and other critical natural and social resources.  My personal involvement with this issue has been at the municipal planning/land use level, but now that I have a full time job with the National Guard as a Facilities/Land Use Planner I hope to make a contribution by upgrading the environmental capacities of our facilities and lands and by modernizing our facilities' energy systems.      

by Arctic Bronco on Mar 15, 2008 12:34 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I believe what you are trying to say.......
Is that science is objective and should not be influenced by politics, and in that sense I agree.  I also agree that a lot of the politics in the US and around the world are knee jerk reactions to tey and appease the public.

However, on the Nuclear issue, you pretty much said it when you stated.....

"Although the questions of proper disposal/containment of nuclear waste byproducts still need further development"

It is for this reason that Nuclear at this point is not the viable answer.  The answer, if you are asking me, is a combination of Wind Turbine Energy, Solar Energy, and Clean Coal Energy.  All of these technologies are rapidly improving, and with greater focus and funding, the process of conversion to these technologies could happen very soon, and would also remove our dependence on Enemies for Oil.

For all the environmental negativity regarding China, they are leading the world in implementation in these areas.  Small portions of their country are at present powered by Wind, and Solar technology, and they have huge projects to make themselves totally energy indipendent by 2030 with heavy reliance on Wind, Solar and Clean Coal.  While it is true that we are ahead in green technologies, its only a matter of time before the Chinese jump ahead and become the beacon for green technologies.  Some will laugh at this, but they have a very long term mindset, and they are investing ridiculously in these areas, not to mention stealing all the tech they can along the way.

OakFoSho

by Sneaky275 on Mar 16, 2008 3:28 AM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I would love to see wind turbines eveywhere!
I wish Sen. Kennedy shared the view.  (What do you think of his idea of 'not in my backyard because I yacht there'?)
"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Mar 16, 2008 7:36 AM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wind turbines in Alaska have problems with
icing.  The ice buildup causes them to become imbalanced and vibrate too much.  Needs more engineering.  Solar power would be great in the summer, but we would need some BIIIG batteries to make it through the winter.  Tidal turbines seem like a great option due to strong currents next to most of the population centers and because most of the state's population lives within several miles of the ocean, due to the warming effects of the ocean water.

by Arctic Bronco on Mar 16, 2008 9:31 AM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Lastly.......
after I finished this video, I decided to see what actual scientists had to say regarding the videos points, and what do you know, there a logical responses refuting nearly every major point in the film, all backed up by concrete data and analysis.  This is easy material to find, and should be common practice to check facts of movies like this, as it is never a good idea to allow one view point to drive your conclusions.  Hear is one good blog where the author refutes the points one by one.

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/03/swindled/

Try, try again buddy, cause this is fun!

OakFoSho

by Sneaky275 on Mar 14, 2008 7:33 PM MDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

see above
I wish my sig was as cool as mdierks!

by styg50 on Mar 14, 2008 8:25 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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