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Draft-Day Solutions at Defensive Tackle

Given all the lively discussion on the right solution at defensive tackle (and by popular demand), I've pasted some links to a series of articles I recently wrote addressing the topic. Ellis-obsessed Broncos fans beware: the results may surprise you. Here are the links:

Triaging Denver's Defensive Line

Redressing Denver's Defensive Line: Draft-Day DT's

Your questions, comments, and criticism are most welcome. Enjoy!

Poll
Who is the 'best-value' DT available in this year's NFL draft?
  • Frank Okam
  • Sedrick Ellis
  • Glenn Dorsey
  • Letroy Guion
  • Pat Sims
  • Kentwan Balmer
  • Trevor Laws
  • Other (Hayden, Harrison, Moore, Pressley)
  • Athyba Rubin
  • Red Bryant

  25 votes | Results

0 recs | Comment 15 comments

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Comments

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WOW!!
Excellent, excellent information. This finally explains to me why the entire Bates scheme was a flop. Those links are outstanding! They also leave me with a great deal of hope that we can finally stop the run and put pressure on the QB at the same time.

Suppose we get Rubin and Bryant. They start eating opposing blockers and then the addition of K2 looks like pure genius as he stuffs the run at the line of scrimmage. This frees DJ and Boss to cover the outside and Champ and Bly start to read Rivers eyes and we see 3-4 picks a game. They are not afraid to take chances as they know they have help at safety.

Thanks for a great post with informative links.

by firstfan on Apr 8, 2008 1:21 PM MDT   0 recs

Your welcome
Thanks for the feedback!

by r8erh8er on Apr 8, 2008 2:29 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

To parlay this into a mock:
#12 (traded to Redskins for 1st rounder next year and #51)

#21  WR/KR Desean Jackson

#42  (traded to Redskins for #21 and our 2nd rounder next year)

#51 WR Earl Bennett

#108 ^^DT Atybah Rubin

#119 ^^(used to upgrade #108 to #92ish DAL)

#139 P Durant Brooks

#148 OL: OT Breno Giacomini/OG Robert Felton

#183 DT Nick Hayden^

#220 ^(used to upgrade #183 to #172ish ATL)

#227 K Brandon Coutou  

CFAs: K Piotr Czech, OT Shannon Boatman

Per your dlineman evaluations, this mock isn't necessarily concerned with "fixing" the DT problem, but with making the statement "The 2008 Denver defense will be able to stop the run."  Of course, it will take some time to get the rookies into the act, but I believe the above statement could very well be true by the end of the year.

I also tried to combine the mock with ejruiz's ST philosophy, thus the trade to target desean Jackson PURELY AS A KR.  It also serves as a backup WR pick, so two for one.  Brooks has been addressed elsewhere, and whiel I would have liked to pick up Mehlaff, who is the most all around kicker in this draft, his value isn't high enough to warrant moving, so instead we take Coutou, who has the leg and the accuracy to compete with Prater.  Interesting sidenote:  Brooks is from Georgia Tech, and Coutou is from Georgia...  I also have Denver looking at K Czech as a CFA, in case they don't find a veteran before the draft to bring in for the competition.  Czech is pretty impressive for being self-taught.

Obviously, I feel that with the pickup of Bennett we have created a top-notch competition for #2 WR in training camp.  Colbert will have his work cut out for him.  On top of this I have mentioned Felton elsewhere as being a class guy who would provide instant depth at every position along the line, while also possessing the character traits to develop into a potential starter down the line, especially at Guard.  Giacomini is simply a better version of Eric Pears, when Pears was drafted.

Regarding the Washington trade:  sound off if it doesn't make sense or doesn't seem likely.  To me, it is essentially one trade:  Washington has starters at every position, but desperately needs quick depth at DE where they have a 35 year old starter.  But Washington doesn't have enough ammo to make this trade with Denver straight up for the #12, so, trade the first next year which Snyder will assume to be a lower pick than he currently has (whereas I see at least four teams that should be better than WAS, and only one that might slip to worse).  Then to balance out the trade, we send them our second next year, which should be worth at least 400 points, and our second this year (480) for their #21(800).  

Besides, trading with the redskins is our biennial domination session.  It wouldn't feel right to miss one.

I wish my sig was as cool as mdierks!

by styg50 on Apr 8, 2008 1:53 PM MDT   0 recs

Jackson
Jackson is a sexy pick at #21. I doubt we'll do it, but I'd love to have a game-breaking kick returner.

by r8erh8er on Apr 8, 2008 2:18 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

Def not a sexy pick
when we can get the same player, dexter jackson, in the 3rd or 4th

by The Villyn on Apr 8, 2008 4:48 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

This is a very good point
and the best way to draw the proper line between the two would be head to head comparison.  There is a lot of data out there, so it is pretty easy to check them out, and I will agree that they appear to be essentially the same.

The way I would define the difference would be to liken them to Steve Smith (Desean) and Santana Moss (Dexter).  Bort are small, speedy, quick, have explosiveness off the ball, get into routes quickly and have consistent deep speed.  The difference comes in finishing off a play.  Smith (desean) has great hands and can catch very well over the shoulder or make the adjustments to come back to the underthrown ball, while Moss (dexter) doesn't catch well over the shoulder, doesn't evade well after the catch, and doesn't show great body control to make underthrow adjustments.

Now when you compare their return games, Dexter actually comes out ahead, as he runs a little better in line on kickoffs and has a little more bulk to take a pounding.  Both of them would concern me as true #2s doing double duty as returnmen.  I don't think either could take the full load, but would be scary options as #3 WRs.

To draft purely for STs upgrade, Dexter is definitely the better value, as Villyn indicates.  To attempt to also add depth and value to the WR roster, Desean would be the better choice.  

How important will it be to Denver to get a full complement of talented WRs into camp to battle it out for the #2 spot?  Right now the competition will be between Colbert, Martinez, and Shepherd, while the #3 has 5 no names battling it out....  

I wish my sig was as cool as mdierks!

by styg50 on Apr 8, 2008 7:05 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

Jackson
Let me preface this by saying I haven't given more than a cursory glance at either of these players, so I'm not an expert here. But based purely on size, Dexter Jackson is a very marginal candidate to succeed at WR in the NFL. DeSean Jackson, on the other hand--and I say this with confidence--will not ever be an every-down wide out in the NFL. He might be sexy on end arounds or in 4-5 WR sets, but a buck seventy is too small to play at this level. Even Dante Hall weighs in over 180lbs.

by r8erh8er on Apr 8, 2008 7:36 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

One thing I assume
that I should probably clarify, is that I don't include the slot WR when talking about the WR depth, at least not since the arrival of Stokely, who is a true 'slot' guy.  When I say #3, I meant he guy backing up the #1 and #2 in event of injury and coming on the field in the 4 WR set you mention.

I'm not versed enough in line configurations to say off the top of my head, but it seems that the 4 WR set would entail an empty backfield most of the time and only a single TE or 5th WR.  Is one of the men in either of these formations (technically or otherwise) considered to be a 'slot' receiver?

I wish my sig was as cool as mdierks!

by styg50 on Apr 8, 2008 8:07 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

Slot
Usually a 4 WR set is a single back formation with no tight end. For Denver, Scheffler often lines up in the slot, making him a receiver rather than a tight end. A 5 wide receiver set has no running back. Sometimes a running back will use motion to line up as the fifth receiver on these plays. Denver's bread-and-butter used to be 2 and 3 receiver sets. Since acquiring Daniel Graham, they want to run more 2 TE sets, but this is partially because Scheffler has great ball skills.

by r8erh8er on Apr 9, 2008 11:46 AM MDT to parent up   0 recs

Someone just got the "A+" for the day.
You get the the MHR University Seal of Approval!  You rock!

Just a (very) small add on for Styg:

While the 4th receiver can be said to be lining up in "a" slot, he typicaly is not called a (or "the") slot receiver, though this can vary from region to region.  Technicaly, he "is" a slot receiver whether called one or not.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Apr 9, 2008 1:39 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

Criticism and compliments
I realize Michael's article comes with the disclaimer that some of the material is oversimplified.  I might disagree a little on the definitions as they pertain to "technique".  See the following link:

http://www.milehighreport.com/story/2008/3/2/3506/95671

I might also disagree (respectfuly) with his assesment of Bates' scheme regarding the type and usage of DTs.  In the Run Contain system as executed by Coach Bates, the DTs are 2 gap and hold the line instead of penetrating (as a one gap might).  They are not expected to get many tackles, instead allowing others to get the glory (I've explained the "vectoring" methodolgy in some other write ups).

On the other hand, I agree with much of the rest of the linked articles.  The DTs certainly failed to either tackle as well as hold the line.  They were miserable, and didn't adjust at all well to the Bates system.  I also like the approach that Michael takes by focusing on value, while many other draft followers seem focused on simply "who is best".  I would like to take two of Michael's high value guys over Ellis anyday.  I very much agree with firstfan's comment above how the defense would benefit from two great DTs.  In fact, I would add that perhaps we could take a SS out of the box and that would help our CBs get even MORE picks.  

I am (perhaps in a minority) of the view that Bates had an impressive record before coming to Denver, and his system might have taken hold if given time.  Mike is pretty quick to fire defensive coordinators, and I'm not sure that Slowik has a record that I am confident in.  I can't speak for the anonymous source that Michael cites, but the quotes I read from several players was that players were failing to execute, and that they didn't blame Bates.

Bottom line: The main point of your diary (going for value over "best") is an excellent argument, and I agree with Michael (and you) that it is the best way to go.  I hope we trade down and somehow get a good value DT (or two) and a WR to compete with (or push) Colbert.  A few offensive linemen after those picks and I see us building a great team for '08.  The following year I think we would have a shot at greatness.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Apr 8, 2008 2:11 PM MDT   0 recs

Bates
You are not the first person to criticize me for blaming our struggles on Bates. It is absolutely impossible to evaluate Bates performance if we don't have the right kind of talent. After Gordon, Adams, and Kennedy washed out, we simply didn't have the right kind of personnel mount an effective run defense. Would Bates have made the right adjustments with the right personnel? I'm not sure. I may have been overly harsh in my evaluation. This detail aside, I'm glad you found my article accurate and informative. Thanks for all the great feedback.

by r8erh8er on Apr 8, 2008 2:28 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

Not blaming you at all
I think it was Michael who was critical of Bates and used the anonymous quote.  But whether or not Bates was to blame is just a matter of opinion and open to debate either way.  It's a moot point after his departure too.  While I tend to lean towards the pro-Bates camp, I'm not strongly alligned that way and am not too charged up to defend a coach that presided over a disaster either.

The important thing is for people to keep in mind the importance of value.  Sure, we could put all of our eggs in one basket for a gamble on a big name, but I'm with you in wanting to spread our bets (and risk) for the chance of several good players over the chance of one bust.  Your diary makes that point very well.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by hoosierteacher on Apr 8, 2008 2:45 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

Good stuff.
I voted with the group it appears.  

by Zappa on Apr 8, 2008 2:54 PM MDT   0 recs

Drafting two two gap DTs would make me happy
Plus the alliteration is appealing.  I am very narrowly focused on this draft, I am adamant about acquiring run stuffers.  Watching Ron Dayne brutalize the defense during the Horror in Houston was.... well, horrible.

by Arctic Bronco on Apr 9, 2008 1:34 AM MDT   0 recs

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